NERF pain and suffering - why not BUFF for love and happiness?

[AshikagaWest]

21 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

Now imagine we do the same for guns and what we are left is scenario were people breeze through the early and mid game with no problem until they hit a hard wall and end up getting stuck .

Actually, that's what happened in the scenario I mentioned ealier around MR 6.  I didn't realize some of the ins-and-outs of modding, such as 1 max-rank mod is better than 2, or more, minimum-rank mods, statuses matter, etc.  The game felt so easy, and then... really hard.  That was the first point that I almost just gave up on the game.

[Almagnus1]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Just being liberal, seeing as literally no one considers the levels where a nukor is needed to be the average playable levels. 

Do you think the nukor will have any trouble killing enemies after the update? Yes or no?

Why are you asking overly vague questions without defining WHERE you're asking about and then demanding a binary answer to a question that's a little more complex than Y/N?

On the star chart, I can use a Lato and be fine, so ofc the Nukor is going to be able to kill enemies there.  Steel Path... Nukor is garbage but the Kuva Nukor won't be as good of a status primer for melees (Ignis Wraith is still a thing though), so it's going to boil down to whether or not the galvanized mods do what we hope they do especially since DE seems hellbent on nerfing melee into the ground to make primaries and secondaries look better.  That said, given enough time and ammo I can kill anything in the game with any weapon so....

[AshikagaWest]

1 hour ago, MistressMoonpaw said:

My sweet summer child. Youre forgetting, or maybe you werent aware of, DE's number 1 golden rule: "No fun allowed".

If a weapon is too much fun because its strong: BAM! Nerf.

If a mission mode makes the grind a tiny bit more bareable? BAM! Nerf. Draco anyone? Remember that? Remember steel essence farm? Also nerfed

If anything is too much fun or makes warframe life a little bit too easy, its nerfed to S#&$. The kuva Nukor for instance was already nerfed before. Now its nerfed again. Next theyre gonna make it so the K Nukor chains to yourself as well and when you reload it it just explodes in your hand

LOL - yeah.  Feels that way sometimes :).

50% of the player base is having fun with this weapon - WE CAN'T HAVE THAT! ;-)

Thanks for the laugh.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

Why are you asking overly vague questions without defining WHERE you're asking about and then demanding a binary answer to a question that's a little more complex than Y/N?

On the star chart, I can use a Lato and be fine, so ofc the Nukor is going to be able to kill enemies there.  Steel Path... Nukor is garbage but the Kuva Nukor won't be as good of a status primer for melees (Ignis Wraith is still a thing though), so it's going to boil down to whether or not the galvanized mods do what we hope they do especially since DE seems hellbent on nerfing melee into the ground to make primaries and secondaries look better.  That said, given enough time and ammo I can kill anything in the game with any weapon so....

It's not vague at all. Pretty simple question. A question you still dodged around and even called the kuva nukor trash....I just wanted to see where your logic (or lack of) came from.

[AshikagaWest]

6 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Short answer: consider how easy the game is made by playing to the current meta. If dev response to the current meta is to buff weaker stuff to its level, all that's really saying is that you want the complete ease at which the meta mashes the game to be the game's baseline. I'm fine with Warframe being relatively easy as far as games go, but the last thing I want is for this action game to turn into an idle game. I'm not expecting Dark Souls or Tekken, but I want this game to engage me just a little more than "aim in the vague direction of enemies and click a few times, here's your medal".

"How easy the game becomes" would be a fair point if (A) the OP issue were addressed early, and (B) there weren't so many ways to trivialize all of the content in the game that never gets addressed.

For me it comes down to this - I invested a lot in the build.  It gets nerfed to the point that it doesn't keep up with some of the content anymore, and I don't have a ready-to-go alternative to take its place.  I don't feel the incentive to now go and invest more time in other content - instead, I feel like walking away.

[Almagnus1]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

It's not vague at all. Pretty simple question. A question you still dodged around and even called the kuva nukor trash....I just wanted to see where your logic (or lack of) came from.

No, I answered your question about the Nukor https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Nukor

27 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Just being liberal, seeing as literally no one considers the levels where a nukor is needed to be the average playable levels. 

Do you think the nukor will have any trouble killing enemies after the update? Yes or no?

And then added on an answer for the Kuva Nukor https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Kuva_Nukor (which is clearly not garbage)

11 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

On the star chart, I can use a Lato and be fine, so ofc the Nukor is going to be able to kill enemies there.  Steel Path... Nukor is garbage but the Kuva Nukor won't be as good of a status primer for melees (Ignis Wraith is still a thing though), so it's going to boil down to whether or not the galvanized mods do what we hope they do especially since DE seems hellbent on nerfing melee into the ground to make primaries and secondaries look better.  That said, given enough time and ammo I can kill anything in the game with any weapon so....

Of note, I'm referring to how the Kuva Nukor is going to perform after it has it's chaining reduced to 2 (from 4), not how it exists now.

[AshikagaWest]

Many comments around "well, we haven't even tried the new Nukor yet," and "it will be even stronger."

These are fair points.  At the same time, this was the straw that pushed me over the edge (forgive me for the mixed/broken metaphor).  This is not the first experience with this type of nerf hitting invested effort, so I finally reached the point where I decided to post about it.

I may just stop playing altogether.  The available time to play has gone down over time, and the feeling of enjoyment for this game is also going down.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

10 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

No, I answered your question about the Nukor https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Nukor

And then added on an answer for the Kuva Nukor https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Kuva_Nukor (which is clearly not garbage)

Of note, I'm referring to how the Kuva Nukor is going to perform after it has it's chaining reduced to 2 (from 4), not how it exists now.

I understand, you feigned ignorance to pretend to really think I was talking about the nukor. I'll try to be more clear.

So, are you aware of one of the other reasons why the Kuva Nukor  is a good status primer (and even a good damage weapon, which might go over your head so I don't want to confuse you by introducing such a crazy notion)? 

It's because it can hold many elements at once. 

Are you also aware that while shooting the Kuva Nukor, you can actually move your aiming reticle along a group of enemies? This means even though the chain hits only 2.....moving your mouse or joystick 1 centimeter to the right or left will allow the Kuva Nukors beam to switch from one enemy to another....therefore also moving the chain along with it? Just curious.

[Almagnus1]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I understand, you feigned ignorance to pretend to really think I was talking about the nukor. I'll try to be more clear.

So, are you aware of one of the other reasons why the Kuva Nukor  is a good status primer (and even a good damage weapon, which might go over your head so I don't want to confuse you by introducing such a crazy notion)? 

It's because it can hold many elements at once. 

Are you also aware that while shooting the Kuva Nukor, you can actually move your aiming reticle along a group of enemies? This means even though the chain hits only 2.....moving your mouse or joystick 1 centimeter to the right or left will allow the Kuva Nukors beam to switch from one enemy to another....therefore also moving the chain along with it? Just curious.

No I had no idea that I could possibly move while shooting in an FPS like I have been able to do since Wolfenstein 3D. I also had no idea that all Kuva weapons came with an element that is defined by the warframe that spawned the lich. I also had no idea that status weapons that could use 3 elemental damage types in addition to IPS would be a desirable status weapon. /s

Keep on posting captain obvious.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

No I had no idea that I could possibly move while shooting in an FPS like I have been able to do since Wolfenstein 3D. I also had no idea that all Kuva weapons came with an element that is defined by the warframe that spawned the lich. I also had no idea that status weapons that could use 3 elemental damage types in addition to IPS would be a desirable status weapon. /s

Keep on posting captain obvious.

Had to make sure.

[Almagnus1]

Just now, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Had to make sure.

What, no cutting up of the post and flaming the obvious satire? As if it wasn't obvious what you were doing from your very first response.....

[SenorClipClop]

29 minutes ago, AshikagaWest said:

For me it comes down to this - I invested a lot in the build.

Then in this case, I don't think it's a game design issue, it's a personal issue. You feel cheated out of something you thought would stay ludicrously strong, and now that it's potentially changing, you feel the investment was wasted. Yeah?

I know this doesn't really help all that much personally, but the simple truth is that this is how Warframe works, and this has always been how it works. After enough experience in the game, you get a sense for what sticks out. If you comb back into earlier Forums posts, you'll see a lot of players seeing any meta nerf (to Catchmoon, K.Nukor etc.) coming from miles away and not being surprised at all when the nerf eventually comes. If nerfs are blindsiding you, I recommend developing the sense that these Tenno have developed, and not gripping too tightly to anything that seems to good to be true in a game that makes constant changes to itself.

[-Augustus-]

On 2021-06-21 at 2:08 PM, AshikagaWest said:

I have NO IDEA how other players kill Sortie Lephantis in seconds. 

Gloom Titania. You're welcome.

[Samhel]

Catchmoon was ridiculously strong and overused. Just as Kuva Nukor. And melee weapons dominated the game ever since melee 3.0. 1 item or 1 category of items cannot dominate a game with hundreds of different choices. The meta and the balance of things needs to be shifted towards an equilibrium point where ranged weapons and melee weapons are both viable and there isn't 1 item that's being abused for its stats or mechanics.

[AshikagaWest]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

which might go over your head so I don't want to confuse you by introducing such a crazy notion

Please keep it constructive and civil.  This type on non-actionable pure-criticism is not appropriate.

[AshikagaWest]

1 hour ago, Almagnus1 said:

No I had no idea that I could possibly move while shooting in an FPS like I have been able to do since Wolfenstein 3D. I also had no idea that all Kuva weapons came with an element that is defined by the warframe that spawned the lich. I also had no idea that status weapons that could use 3 elemental damage types in addition to IPS would be a desirable status weapon. /s

Keep on posting captain obvious.

Don't let another user's criticism get to you ;-).

[AshikagaWest]

I'm going to try to bring the focus back on this topic.

The main concern that I have here is the amount of time, effort, game resources, and even real $$ players put into the game to get a load-out that works well.  When the nerfs come along and significantly takes away from that effort, it's discouraging.

Spit-balling here ... if DE wants to re-invigorate the game with new OP weapons that then get nerfed - great!  Give us 6-month boosters for each new weapon (even disable Rivens for those weapons to keep it under-control).  Then we don't have to invest in rivens to make the weapon strong, and know that its lifetime of strength is on a timer.  Not short-lived buffs like Arbitrations give us, that's not enough time to figure out a good build for a weapon.

Just be honest and straight-forward with the players.  We can take it.  No more "oh, you guys like _this-content_ too much, we're going to fix that!" Please.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

3 minutes ago, AshikagaWest said:

Just be honest and straight-forward with the players.  We can take it.  No more "oh, you guys like _this-content_ too much, we're going to fix that!" Please.

they are already being honest; they're telling us what weapons are a little too strong (though most of us already know, some people don't) adn at least give us a heads up for nerfs, which is more than can be said for some other games. I don't know how long you've been here, but after a year or so, you cna start to see the pattern forming: gun comes out > gun is stronk > everyone uses it > DE doesn't want that because it messes with balance and makes other guns worthless >, DE nerfs it > players move on to the next strongest weapon and the cycle repeats itself. 

DE have done this for a few years now, and the cycle isn't going to change any time soon, so if the changes are causing you "pain and suffering", then the best thing to do is avoid it yourself.

[AshikagaWest]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

DE have done this for a few years now, and the cycle isn't going to change any time soon, so if the changes are causing you "pain and suffering", then the best thing to do is avoid it yourself.

Agreed.  This may be the time to just move on.

[AshikagaWest]

For context, I started playing in June 2018.  Coming up on my 1000 login days.

[(NSW)Greybones]

On 2021-06-22 at 10:08 AM, AshikagaWest said:

Did anybody ever say, "I don't enjoy playing the Melee meta, please nerf it?"  If so, please direct them to their nearest counciling center and recommend they try challenging themselves with intentionally weaker builds.

Instead of nerfing what's working and enjoyable, how about focusing instead on what is working well, and players enjoy.  We enjoy killing the 100+ enemiers per second (ok, not quite, but sometimes feels like it).  And we enjoy weapons that can do the job.

Your topic is… what it is. It’s been discussed by others. This bit though; If you want people to not complain about the meta, you can’t then go and say they’re insane for not playing the meta.

The second part of this quote is an assumption.

[AshikagaWest]

51 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Your topic is… what it is. It’s been discussed by others. This bit though; If you want people to not complain about the meta, you can’t then go and say they’re insane for not playing the meta.

The second part of this quote is an assumption.

The way I worded that could have been better.  I'm OK with people having complaints about the meta - I was attempting to express that having overpowered weapons in the game seems like an odd reason to be unhappy.

Also, I'm not asserting that it's insane to avoid the meta.  Whatever players enjoy is all good by me - as long as it's balanced with consideration for other players.  If someone wants to play Steel Path with unmodded weapons, I'm interested to hear how that works out ;-).

Thank you for making clear that the wording is poor.

(EDIT: I editted that comment to hopefully clarify - please let me know if it's still unclear)

[RazerXPrime]

People that don't like change should not play games where the content and system isn't fixed. Just play a solo game and retain the version you have of it and it'll always be the same.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, AshikagaWest said:

The way I worded that could have been better.  I'm OK with people having complaints about the meta - I was attempting to express that having overpowered weapons in the game seems like an odd reason to be unhappy.

Also, I'm not asserting that it's insane to avoid the meta.  Whatever players enjoy is all good by me - as long as it's balanced with consideration for other players.  If someone wants to play Steel Path with unmodded weapons, I'm interested to hear how that works out ;-).

Thank you for making clear that the wording is poor.

👍

It'd work out terribly. The farthest we can get without damage-increasing mods would be about ~lvl20 to ~lvl25

[AshikagaWest]

1 minute ago, RazerXPrime said:

People that don't like change should not play games where the content and system isn't fixed. Just play a solo game and retain the version you have of it and it'll always be the same.

That's fair.  If it's intended as a rebuke to this thread, it's oversimplified, and doesn't really add value to the discussion though.