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Melee nerf reduces player choice


wtflag
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Melee nerf reduces player choice. This is the conclusion I have reached after a number of considerations. 

1. Melee weapon is short range with higher potential damage.

2. Ranged weapon is long range with lower potential damage.

3. Ranged weapons is always better in cases where enemy can be one/two-shot by Ranged weapons. Let's call this "Range Optimized Levels"

4. When ranged weapon damage is insufficient on steelpath and long endurance runs,, melee takes over. Let's call this "Melee Optimized Levels"

5. Each player has a different level range of when enemy levels switch from Range Optimized to Melee Optimized.

6. Warframe is a game with infinite enemy level scaling but no infinite rewards scaling. Therefore it doesn't really matter what enemy levels players are able to reach, beyond bragging rights.

 

For example, a starting player may find that Range Optimized Levels for him is between 1 to 60 level enemies,.

For example, a MR20+ player may find that Range Optimized Levels for him is between 1 to 100 level enemies.

For example, a fully maxed player with rivens and latest meta weapon may find that Range Optimized Levels for him is between 1 to 150 level enemies.

 

Now let's assume, (1) and (2) remains true after the gun buff and melee nerf, then the level range of Range Optimized Levels shifts to the right for everyone. This is fine but do not really make much change to the existing meta. Players will still use Ranged weapons until they can't.

Now if we assumed (1) is no longer true, meaning that Melee weapon is short range with lower potential damage and Ranged weapon is long range with higher potential damage. Then every level becomes Range Optimized Levels, effectively deleting melee weapons as a weapon class.

 

Based on the above, the outcome is either neutral, or bad.

 

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This argument assumes people use guns.  Most games are 90% melee kills because it's faster and more powerful.  Why stop to aim when you can just speed through levels sweeping away the hordes?

Currently the optimal melee range is 1-9999.

These changes won't really alter that.  Melee will still be stronger and faster, but ideally(though unlikely), guns will scale enough that those who do want to shoot, can.

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39 minutes ago, wtflag said:

Now if we assumed (1) is no longer true, meaning that Melee weapon is short range with lower potential damage and Ranged weapon is long range with higher potential damage. Then every level becomes Range Optimized Levels, effectively deleting melee weapons as a weapon class.

Which is why melee was buffed so hard in the recent past, since guns outperformed melee in the starchart. Round and round we go.

Though I don't think the nerfs themselves are really relevant to your argument. By that logic even if there are no melee nerfs at all, any buff to guns would similarly "delete melee weapons as a weapon class" by lifting the "Range Optimized Levels" closer to the "Melee Optimized Levels". Right now melee clearly overshadows guns in SP, providing significantly more benefit even when considering the (usually nonexistent) risk of fighting in close quarters. It'd be best if fighting in close quarters was stronger than at a range, but not so much stronger that fighting at a range becomes the less effective strategy. Ideally both should be equally as effective when the risk is taken into account, and then you have more choice because you can use whichever strategy you prefer to the same effectiveness. These changes might make this the case in SP, and we'll have to wait till we play them to find out, though it's definitely going to break guns on the starchart and put is back where we started.

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Is posting ideas on general discussion means anything anymore?

We're all fed up with the endless bad ideas, and good ideas that will absolutely never get heard by DE anyway.

I mean unless if your main objective is just to spend time on this forums, then sure...

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5 minutes ago, Soy77 said:

Is posting ideas on general discussion means anything anymore?

We're all fed up with the endless bad ideas, and good ideas that will absolutely never get heard by DE anyway.

I mean unless if your main objective is just to spend time on this forums, then sure...

I mean we could all be arguing about Yareli's animations again... Would that be better?

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I think the current proposed changes don't really impact player choice much, its pretty much going to be the same as it was.

Things which were strong will still be strong ,

and those that were weak have slightly more potential to be less weak.

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Melee is still boring af. 

EEeEeEEeeEEEeEEEEEeEEeEEEeEEEEEEeeEeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeEEEEEEEEEEEeEeEEEEEEEEEeeEEeEEEEEEEEeEEEEEEEEEEEeeEEeEEEEeeeEeEeEEEeeeeEEEEeEeEEEeEeEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeEeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeEee...

tenor.gif

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1 hour ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Now I'll be able to finally use guns and actually kill something before Volt Melee Beyblade clears the map first.

Laughs in thermal sunder Titania.

Or Bramma spamming Mirage in SP.

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28 minutes ago, Askell91 said:

Melee is still boring af. 

EEeEeEEeeEEEeEEEEEeEEeEEEeEEEEEEeeEeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeEEEEEEEEEEEeEeEEEEEEEEEeeEEeEEEEEEEEeEEEEEEEEEEEeeEEeEEEEeeeEeEeEEEeeeeEEEEeEeEEEeEeEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeEeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeEee...

tenor.gif

and m1x times infinite is somehow different than that?

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1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

I mean we could all be arguing about Yareli's animations again... Would that be better?

...Honestly?

Yes. At least that had...some faint semblance of substance.

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lol the nerf isn't enough, idc though since I hate mashing E. These youtubers/influencers are holding off the update. DE needs to trust their guts and ignore the community for once since they're right on track on this one. Just needs more ooomfpphh on the single target gun mods/arcanes.

Edited by XaelathRavenstorm
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4 часа назад, (PSN)haphazardlynamed сказал:

I'm not reading that Text Wall

Just gonna say

No

it adds More Choice.

Now I'll be able to finally use guns and actually kill something before Volt Melee Beyblade clears the map first.

Ignorance is bliss

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Adometro:

This argument assumes people use guns.  Most games are 90% melee kills because it's faster and more powerful.  Why stop to aim when you can just speed through levels sweeping away the hordes?

Currently the optimal melee range is 1-9999.

These changes won't really alter that.  Melee will still be stronger and faster, but ideally(though unlikely), guns will scale enough that those who do want to shoot, can.

that depends on where you play!
with aoe / chain weapons in short and not SP mission i kill much faster! you mean statistics that work with fake overkill damage? because what do you want to kill with mele? by the time you reach the opponent, everything is dead. i also play mobile warframes and fly from group to group.

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb wtflag:

For example, a starting player may find that Range Optimized Levels for him is between 1 to 60 level enemies,.

For example, a MR20+ player may find that Range Optimized Levels for him is between 1 to 100 level enemies.

For example, a fully maxed player with rivens and latest meta weapon may find that Range Optimized Levels for him is between 1 to 150 level enemies.

and it's not about levels. it's about tanked enemies!
here mele has to be extremely strong, otherwise the concept doesn't make any sense and players would simply ignore certain enemies. which also often happens with stalker on SP - he almost always just drops a garbage anyway. because why waste time?

and I also need live tests. because as much overkill as it is not needed now ... my gun blade is constantly doing 2-3mil heavy attack damage on SP.

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I think Melee nerf actually does nothing really (can potentially increase player choice). Firearms buff on the other hand.

FIREARMS: To be honest i barely use firearms right now, unless i am hunting an eidolon with a rifle or having fun with aklato.

With the new update, i doubt i'll be able to keep the buffs of the conditional mods and arcanes (that require kills) on my aklato during steelpath/endurance (unless melee kills proc them too, this would be nice). But i'm sure i'll consider using aklato more often on all of the other content the game has to offer. (Of course, up to a specific level, which is the melee optimized level as you described)

MELEE: Some mods might be nerfed. (condition overload, blood rush, berserker), that's the only thing i know.

If those are the only serious melee nerfs: Really doubt this will change much, melee is still the top choice on high end content and i personally won't stop using it on low level missions. I really can't see how this nerf reduces my choice.

Otherwise: Depends on how bad melee is hit. My choice will be increased if melee are brought closer to firearms in terms of power. Of couse, going too far will bring us to the old days of warframe, where melee is too inefficient for the risks taken. Even in the worst possible scenario, i'll probably use melee more often then how much i'm using ranged weapons right now (i like melee, what can i say). Dunno as for others.

TL:DR: As long as Melee and Firearms are both VALID choices, i'm good. If devs make more ranged weapons viable for high-level content while not making melee ineffective there, i'm happy. Really doubt devs decided to nerf melee into the ground. And considering this, even with the worst possible nerfs i can imagine, i still see myself using different weapon types more often than i currently do.

Edited by Dante
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