Melee nerf reduces player choice

[(PSN)Yggranya]

7 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Right now melee clearly overshadows guns in SP

So, do these changes only affect SP? If the answer is "yes", then OK. If the answer is "no", then DE truly has abandoned any pretense that they aren't going to eventually balance the game around rivens.

[-Kittens-]

9 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

They barely touched melee and there're new QQ threads every day.

Fourth time's a charm.

[Dairaion]

the nerf are coming about because of steel path, as to why they don't simply ban stuff from steel path i'll never know, but your ultimately right. a universal melee nerf via the alteration of several commonly used mods will only result in one of two things, weakening them which may turn players off of "end game" content or Weakening them so little it effects nothing.

theres also the even more dangerous possibility of this being the beginning of a mod nerfing trend which would functionally turn every melee into a skin for each other because they all only do a little bit different kind of damage in slightly different amounts.

[Loza03]

I don't think anyone would argue that Melee weapons don't need to be stronger than guns. Because they do.

 

However, the problem is not so simple. In Warframe, the modding system works together in such a way that strong weapons get more relative benefit than weaker ones, and this gets more extreme the higher the base stats go.

This means that making melee weapons a reasonable amount stronger to offset their innate weaknesses (which are not as many in Warframe, mind you, due to a propensity for close quarters combat and tight groups of enemies) is a much greater challenge. It's not so easy when every point of change to a weapon's base stats could have an impact of anywhere from several dozen to a hundred or so points of damage more or less.

Also consider that Area of Effect damage, which the majority of melee does, is itself a substantial modifier. A single-target hit, such as a sniper headshot, has an effective damage cap, but every enemy hit by an AoE attack multiplies the actual damage, but may not do so in an obvious or even directly-noticable way. A 200 damage shot against a single enemy with 100 health deals 100 damage. A 50 damage melee swing against three of the same enemies does a total of 150 damage overall, but kills nothing.

 

This isn't a simple fix, and IMO, it's more indicative that there are deeper mechanical issues to Warframe's foundational design that many of the current issues are just symptoms of.

[Askell91]

14 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

and m1x times infinite is somehow different than that?

Guns and melee are a bit different don't you think? Or you are whiteknight to a point where you can't put up a better point for arguement?

Look at other games how fun melee can be... and we got E.... guess thats enough for the likes of you, never want the game to be better.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb Askell91:

Guns and melee are a bit different don't you think? Or you are whiteknight to a point where you can't put up a better point for arguement?

Look at other games how fun melee can be... and we got E.... guess thats enough for the likes of you, never want the game to be better.

actually mele is good as it is now. and i have heavy attack together with alt fire on right mouse button.
for me it's all about pure action.

but if warframe mutates into a second job with a fart as a reward, then i'll do something better.

and who complains about too much "power"?!?!?!
I'm mr30 and have unlocked almost everything except login rewards ............. everything is fine with me. really like in kindergarten. but maybe it's some masochists or trolls or whatever.

[-Kittens-]

1 hour ago, Askell91 said:

Guns and melee are a bit different don't you think? Or you are whiteknight to a point where you can't put up a better point for arguement?

Look at other games how fun melee can be... and we got E.... guess thats enough for the likes of you, never want the game to be better.

You using a man known for incredibly asinine decisions on the regular is pretty amazing. +5 to irony.

 

And no there is no difference; there isn't even a difference in damage result coding between them. You mistaking animations for meaningful context and content is a you fetish problem, not a playerbase satisfaction problem. You should probably learn to divorce your fetishes from what you assume the playerbase wants.

[Askell91]

51 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

You using a man known for incredibly asinine decisions on the regular is pretty amazing. +5 to irony.

 

And no there is no difference; there isn't even a difference in damage result coding between them. You mistaking animations for meaningful context and content is a you fetish problem, not a playerbase satisfaction problem. You should probably learn to divorce your fetishes from what you assume the playerbase wants.

So you are saying that NOBODY ELSE wants more usable and fun combos just smash E till eternity.

Ye nah.

(I could say your words right back at you. Try to learn to divorce your boring old fashioned colored retro glasses. It's realy such a shock to you that OTHER GAMES GOT IT BETTER and maybe DE should upgrade a bit so maybe people won't be bored with melee after a few days. Let's be honest. The ones who use melee is the new guy who still thinks its cool and the peoples who know it's broken as hell. It's not fun.)

[Askell91]

1 hour ago, Battle.Mage said:

actually mele is good as it is now. and i have heavy attack together with alt fire on right mouse button.
for me it's all about pure action.

Nobody was talking about "quick melee" or "heavy attacks". It's about the combo system. The full on melee what is boring.

1 hour ago, Battle.Mage said:

but if warframe mutates into a second job with a fart as a reward, then i'll do something better.

Have you played WF in the last 2 years?... It's just what you wrote down..

1 hour ago, Battle.Mage said:

and who complains about too much "power"?!?!?!
I'm mr30 and have unlocked almost everything except login rewards ............. everything is fine with me. really like in kindergarten. but maybe it's some masochists or trolls or whatever.

Im honestly lost at this part. How does this comes in the picture here? What?

Are you sure you wanted to quote me here?

[Mints]

21 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

I'm not reading that Text Wall

Just gonna say

No

it adds More Choice.

Now I'll be able to finally use guns and actually kill something before Volt Melee Beyblade clears the map first.

That Volt put more effort into their mechanical skills than you ever did.

[Mints]

5 hours ago, Askell91 said:

Look at other games how fun melee can be... and we got E.... guess thats enough for the likes of you, never want the game to be better.

This line right here betrays your complete lack of knowledge about melee. I run every mission I play with a Nikana Prime and I never even touch the E key. Do yourself a favor and go enable Melee with Fire Weapon Input. Until then don't talk about melee as if you know something about it.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

29 minutes ago, Mints said:

That Volt put more effort into their mechanical skills than you ever did.

Lol. There are a few people out there who actually use melee combos and proper melee skills, I have someone in the clan who does exactly that. But they're few and far between, don't try and pretend like most people don't just spam their mouse wheel or E key or simply have it on a macro.

[Mints]

1 minute ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Lol. There are a few people out there who actually use melee combos and proper melee skills, I have someone in the clan who does exactly that. But they're few and far between, don't try and pretend like most people don't just spam their mouse wheel or E key or simply have it on a macro.

I don't really care what "most people" do. "Most people" don't know their ass from their elbow.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

16 minutes ago, Mints said:

I don't really care what "most people" do. "Most people" don't know their ass from their elbow.

While I agree with you on your assessment of the average player, it doesn't make your previous statement any less far fetched.

[Mints]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

While I agree with you on your assessment of the average player, it doesn't make your previous statement any less far fetched.

Then I'll elaborate: Anyone that can travel through a level faster than any other player AND their bullets has achieved some mastery of mechanics. I could use Volt or Gauss to obliterate a level so fast no one can keep up, but I can often do that without either of them. Public kuva flood mission? 70+% total damage dealt with a sword more often than not. In fact, I've had people comment when watching from my end that sometimes they can't visually process what's going on on-screen. This is not some superpower nor am I the best player in the game. It's just raw mechanics and anyone that puts in the practice and effort can achieve it.

Honestly I had been considering putting together a full tutorial on how to play the game this way. The attitude toward melee around here is actually motivating me to start putting it together. There is a startling amount of people that have NO IDEA how fun it is.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

10 minutes ago, Mints said:

Then I'll elaborate: Anyone that can travel through a level faster than any other player AND their bullets has achieved some mastery of mechanics. I could use Volt or Gauss to obliterate a level so fast no one can keep up, but I can often do that without either of them. Public kuva flood mission? 70+% total damage dealt with a sword more often than not. In fact, I've had people comment when watching from my end that sometimes they can't visually process what's going on on-screen. This is not some superpower nor am I the best player in the game. It's just raw mechanics and anyone that puts in the practice and effort can achieve it.

Honestly I had been considering putting together a full tutorial on how to play the game this way. The attitude toward melee around here is actually motivating me to start putting it together. There is a startling amount of people that have NO IDEA how fun it is.

You should, maybe it'll wake em up. I've had a guy in my clan for years who was just a beast with melee using mostly sword melees and having the time of his life doing it. Sadly however most players lack not only the aptitude but also the willingness to do such things because they want their rewards with the least amount of possible effort, which is what I was getting at with the previous guy's comment about beyblading(the term used for simply mashing E). Who knows perhaps this nerf will mean melee requires more skill to be OP? Somehow I doubt it but we can hope.

[Mints]

29 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

You should, maybe it'll wake em up. I've had a guy in my clan for years who was just a beast with melee using mostly sword melees and having the time of his life doing it. Sadly however most players lack not only the aptitude but also the willingness to do such things because they want their rewards with the least amount of possible effort, which is what I was getting at with the previous guy's comment about beyblading(the term used for simply mashing E). Who knows perhaps this nerf will mean melee requires more skill to be OP? Somehow I doubt it but we can hope.

We can hope, but I have doubts. From my perspective mashing E is like trying to play a piano by randomly tapping keys and hoping it sounds good. Even repeatedly using spin attack is often slower than what can be achieved with practice which renders Maiming Strike a crutch at best and a handicap at worst. Touching the ground can often just slow you down, doubly so if you're touching it long enough to spin. It's all about rhythm and decision-making based on the level geometry in front of you. If that Volt we spoke of earlier wasn't good at what he's doing he would get stuck on props, doorframes, and so on quite easily. Vectoring your jumps to achieve a different angle of approach changes when and where you can strike with a melee weapon.

[Askell91]

5 hours ago, Mints said:

This line right here betrays your complete lack of knowledge about melee. I run every mission I play with a Nikana Prime and I never even touch the E key. Do yourself a favor and go enable Melee with Fire Weapon Input. Until then don't talk about melee as if you know something about it.

What is the difference? One "combo" is usefull / stance. Where is the fun in that? Thats a reality check right there...

[Mints]

9 minutes ago, Askell91 said:

What is the difference? One "combo" is usefull / stance. Where is the fun in that? Thats a reality check right there...

You seriously underestimate the usefulness of even blue stance mods. Taking Blind Justice as an example, each combo is useful when approaching various forms of level geometry, compositions of enemies, and must be carefully managed to maintain momentum. Some combos do more damage but their frames are long enough that even Primed Fury won't keep them from arresting your momentum. Do you need to strike quickly at enemies that are several meters away but at a lower elevation due to a ramp or stairwell? Heeding Call will get you there but a bullet jump, spin attack, or any other combo will not. Need to quickly shred a small group of clustered enemies briefly before moving on? Destined Path is your best bet. Couple these two together and they cover a wide range of situations, but they're never doing as much damage as the other two in the set.

You have to make decisions about which combos to use, when to use them, and which ones will clear the obstacles in your path. This is especially the case when you're playing high level content and don't have the leisure of tanking aggro from a whole group of enemies. Now couple this with a breakneck pace that propels you at enemies faster than other players can shoot them. Starting to see the complexity?

Stop using E to melee. It holds you back. Hold F to use dedicated melee, enable mouse button control of it, and maybe you will understand.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 hour ago, Mints said:

You seriously underestimate the usefulness of even blue stance mods. Taking Blind Justice as an example, each combo is useful when approaching various forms of level geometry, compositions of enemies, and must be carefully managed to maintain momentum. Some combos do more damage but their frames are long enough that even Primed Fury won't keep them from arresting your momentum. Do you need to strike quickly at enemies that are several meters away but at a lower elevation due to a ramp or stairwell? Heeding Call will get you there but a bullet jump, spin attack, or any other combo will not. Need to quickly shred a small group of clustered enemies briefly before moving on? Destined Path is your best bet. Couple these two together and they cover a wide range of situations, but they're never doing as much damage as the other two in the set.

You have to make decisions about which combos to use, when to use them, and which ones will clear the obstacles in your path. This is especially the case when you're playing high level content and don't have the leisure of tanking aggro from a whole group of enemies. Now couple this with a breakneck pace that propels you at enemies faster than other players can shoot them. Starting to see the complexity?

Stop using E to melee. It holds you back. Hold F to use dedicated melee, enable mouse button control of it, and maybe you will understand.

Honestly sounds like my approach to speed running when Nova portalling, making decisions on the fly, it adds a nice layer of challenge to the game that makes it enjoyable for me and obviously for you too.

[RazerXPrime]

On 2021-06-22 at 5:11 AM, wtflag said:

Melee nerf reduces player choice. This is the conclusion I have reached after a number of considerations. 

1. Melee weapon is short range with higher potential damage.

2. Ranged weapon is long range with lower potential damage.

3. Ranged weapons is always better in cases where enemy can be one/two-shot by Ranged weapons. Let's call this "Range Optimized Levels"

4. When ranged weapon damage is insufficient on steelpath and long endurance runs,, melee takes over. Let's call this "Melee Optimized Levels"

5. Each player has a different level range of when enemy levels switch from Range Optimized to Melee Optimized.

6. Warframe is a game with infinite enemy level scaling but no infinite rewards scaling. Therefore it doesn't really matter what enemy levels players are able to reach, beyond bragging rights.

 

For example, a starting player may find that Range Optimized Levels for him is between 1 to 60 level enemies,.

For example, a MR20+ player may find that Range Optimized Levels for him is between 1 to 100 level enemies.

For example, a fully maxed player with rivens and latest meta weapon may find that Range Optimized Levels for him is between 1 to 150 level enemies.

 

Now let's assume, (1) and (2) remains true after the gun buff and melee nerf, then the level range of Range Optimized Levels shifts to the right for everyone. This is fine but do not really make much change to the existing meta. Players will still use Ranged weapons until they can't.

Now if we assumed (1) is no longer true, meaning that Melee weapon is short range with lower potential damage and Ranged weapon is long range with higher potential damage. Then every level becomes Range Optimized Levels, effectively deleting melee weapons as a weapon class.

 

Based on the above, the outcome is either neutral, or bad.

 

[Mints]

35 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Honestly sounds like my approach to speed running when Nova portalling, making decisions on the fly, it adds a nice layer of challenge to the game that makes it enjoyable for me and obviously for you too.

It's how I derive the most enjoyment out of the game. That's why I'm so concerned about a melee nerf in the first place. If my playstyle gets nerfed into the ground I'm screwed. I'll lose the only game where I can go insanely fast and excel in my own way. I lost the last one when Tribes: Ascend softcapped speed and I'm afraid to lose it again.

[T-Shark69]

When will the whining about a brainless easy game finally stop? 

[Askell91]

2 hours ago, Mints said:

You seriously underestimate the usefulness of even blue stance mods. Taking Blind Justice as an example, each combo is useful when approaching various forms of level geometry, compositions of enemies, and must be carefully managed to maintain momentum. Some combos do more damage but their frames are long enough that even Primed Fury won't keep them from arresting your momentum. Do you need to strike quickly at enemies that are several meters away but at a lower elevation due to a ramp or stairwell? Heeding Call will get you there but a bullet jump, spin attack, or any other combo will not. Need to quickly shred a small group of clustered enemies briefly before moving on? Destined Path is your best bet. Couple these two together and they cover a wide range of situations, but they're never doing as much damage as the other two in the set.

You have to make decisions about which combos to use, when to use them, and which ones will clear the obstacles in your path. This is especially the case when you're playing high level content and don't have the leisure of tanking aggro from a whole group of enemies. Now couple this with a breakneck pace that propels you at enemies faster than other players can shoot them. Starting to see the complexity?

Stop using E to melee. It holds you back. Hold F to use dedicated melee, enable mouse button control of it, and maybe you will understand.

I don't know why would you think I was talking about quick melee when I mentioned like 3 times im talking about the entire combo system.

You are clearly not even bothered to read anything just arguing becouse someone sees this in a different light.

What kind of "high level gameplay" are you trying to paint a picture of?

At the highest level people just sit in a corner room.... whacking at the door and you know this too.

Talking down to people like they never played the game xD. Arrogant whiteknight.

[Mints]

17 minutes ago, Askell91 said:

I don't know why would you think I was talking about quick melee when I mentioned like 3 times im talking about the entire combo system.

You are clearly not even bothered to read anything just arguing becouse someone sees this in a different light.

What kind of "high level gameplay" are you trying to paint a picture of?

At the highest level people just sit in a corner room.... whacking at the door and you know this too.

Talking down to people like they never played the game xD. Arrogant whiteknight.

I'll "talk down to you" as long as you demonstrate a total lack of knowledge. At the highest level I'm flying across the room so fast the AI can't track me and never stopping for long enough to be shot. If you want to play the game in the most boring way possible maybe that's the root of your problem. Some of us prefer to put some elbow grease into the way we play the game.