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The buff to guns is misleading.


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If you were to make their levels equal, any enemy in the Steel Path will always have higher Effective Health (EHP) than a regular star chart enemy, as a result of the +200% armor/health/shield modifier of the Steel Path game-mode.

By increasing the EHP of enemies to 3 times of their normal amount, they will not usually die instantaneously and so you highlight the performance differences between melee weapons and guns in Time To Kill (TTK), which I consider to be ONLY valid metric by which one measures the effectiveness of a weapon or a build when discussing damage.

In TTK, melee vastly outperforms guns.

However; this increase to EHP in Steel Path specifically highlights the issues with the proposed buffs to guns being mods and arcanes that can only be obtained by doing Steel Path. The majority of these weapons are not initially effective at the game-mode, having inefficient TTK to perform even viably, hence why melee dominates the meta. furthermore, these mods and arcanes have "On Kill" effects, and if the majority of guns struggle to kill even fodder then you are simply reinforcing their unviability for the Steel Path.

Though, these mods will improve guns overall in standard gameplay, except perhaps boss-fights, these changes do little to address the problem with the comparative performance of guns to melee in the Steel Path.

The buffs to guns are misleading because DE states their intent to enhance their performance in the Steel Path, and yet their solution doesn't actually solve the problem.

 

I agree that guns have weak mods and so I understand the rationale behind implementing the Galvanised package, but disagree that the weak mods represent even half of the reason for their underperformance.

It is obvious to me that the majority of this reason for underperformance is that guns have no mechanic to enable scaling variables. Melee utilises combo to scale, and without combo, no melee build would be even close to effective for anything above level 80. Sniper rifles already have a combo mechanic which allows them to scale, but the scaling variable of sniper rifles is limited and thus would come the issue of having few mods to capitalise on this mechanic.

It doesn't need to be a combo system, but as long as guns had a mechanic allowing them to scale, and mods capitalising on this scaling variable, you would solve about 60% of the performance issue of guns.

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6 minutes ago, (PSN)Joshua_Badhan said:

If you were to make their levels equal, any enemy in the Steel Path will always have higher Effective Health (EHP) than a regular star chart enemy, as a result of the +200% armor/health/shield modifier of the Steel Path game-mode.

By increasing the EHP of enemies to 3 times of their normal amount, they will not usually die instantaneously and so you highlight the performance differences between melee weapons and guns in Time To Kill (TTK), which I consider to be ONLY valid metric by which one measures the effectiveness of a weapon or a build when discussing damage.

In TTK, melee vastly outperforms guns.

However; this increase to EHP in Steel Path specifically highlights the issues with the proposed buffs to guns being mods and arcanes that can only be obtained by doing Steel Path. The majority of these weapons are not initially effective at the game-mode, having inefficient TTK to perform even viably, hence why melee dominates the meta. furthermore, these mods and arcanes have "On Kill" effects, and if the majority of guns struggle to kill even fodder then you are simply reinforcing their unviability for the Steel Path.

Though, these mods will improve guns overall in standard gameplay, except perhaps boss-fights, these changes do little to address the problem with the comparative performance of guns to melee in the Steel Path.

The buffs to guns are misleading because DE states their intent to enhance their performance in the Steel Path, and yet their solution doesn't actually solve the problem.

 

I agree that guns have weak mods and so I understand the rationale behind implementing the Galvanised package, but disagree that the weak mods represent even half of the reason for their underperformance.

It is obvious to me that the majority of this reason for underperformance is that guns have no mechanic to enable scaling variables. Melee utilises combo to scale, and without combo, no melee build would be even close to effective for anything above level 80. Sniper rifles already have a combo mechanic which allows them to scale, but the scaling variable of sniper rifles is limited and thus would come the issue of having few mods to capitalise on this mechanic.

It doesn't need to be a combo system, but as long as guns had a mechanic allowing them to scale, and mods capitalising on this scaling variable, you would solve about 60% of the performance issue of guns.

Often in RPG's 1st boss is later in game just a regular enemy and its just by the fact u leveled up get better gear and spells and whatever
And while as first boss it was a struggle later in game its most likely 1hit kill for you

If its not then u did something wrong or grind not enough

Anyway in warframe when i and most likely all of us started we got our butts served to us after we past enemies lvl 15-17

Now there are SO MANY ways to stun lock enemies to make them easy targets that i dont really see whats the point of buffs and nerfs

I take vauban throw vortex and i got my own fidget spinner of enemies waiting for me to kill them

And from that point of view i think problem is in ppl not willing to use arsenal of fire power and advantage they collected and configured/moded/set for themselves
No lets make so 1 thing can do all things like 1 archwing for all missions 1 archgun best for all missions or 1 weapon to deal with all the crap we face

We lack a proper way to switch our stuff we gathered so much over our course of gameplay and not firepower

Imagine if we had SEPARATE loadouts for primary secondary and melee weapons and warframes
Not enough we could have exact same build of warframe and idk secondary weapon we could switch only melee and primary weapons loadout to better suit our needs

And then IPS (Impact, Puncture, Slash) damage would make more sense with addition of status effects
We could use same idk Rhino build with different secondary or melee builds for greenier and then switch to corpus

And now what we have we run with few different weapons but most of the time all of them are exact same DPS with most deadly element and status while only thing that changes
In our loadouts are our warfrwames eventually companions

Thats the issue here and not that guns or melees need debuff or buff

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vor 26 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Joshua_Badhan:

The buffs to guns are misleading because DE states their intent to enhance their performance in the Steel Path, and yet their solution doesn't actually solve the problem.

that is also the point! guns aren't really any better! they are just as garbage as they are now! in addition, top weapons like kuva nukor are extremely weak ............... LOL I'm just saying!
"on kill" brainlessness with a short timer can also not work at all !!!! because it is needed with certain opponents and there the timer will run down immediately ..............

these mods are no solution at all! and made them just as lousy as mindless riven mods!


@DE! you can do better! designers have developed many awesome weapons .................. WHY DO YOU WANT TO LIMIT YOUR CHOICE TO HANDFULL OF WEAPONS ??? you can develop skins and special effects and sell them for platinum ......................

well ...

index.jpg

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19 minutes ago, (PSN)Joshua_Badhan said:

If you were to make their levels equal, any enemy in the Steel Path will always have higher Effective Health (EHP) than a regular star chart enemy, as a result of the +200% armor/health/shield modifier of the Steel Path game-mode.

By increasing the EHP of enemies to 3 times of their normal amount, they will not usually die instantaneously and so you highlight the performance differences between melee weapons and guns in Time To Kill (TTK), which I consider to be ONLY valid metric by which one measures the effectiveness of a weapon or a build when discussing damage.

In TTK, melee vastly outperforms guns.

However; this increase to EHP in Steel Path specifically highlights the issues with the proposed buffs to guns being mods and arcanes that can only be obtained by doing Steel Path. The majority of these weapons are not initially effective at the game-mode, having inefficient TTK to perform even viably, hence why melee dominates the meta. furthermore, these mods and arcanes have "On Kill" effects, and if the majority of guns struggle to kill even fodder then you are simply reinforcing their unviability for the Steel Path.

Though, these mods will improve guns overall in standard gameplay, except perhaps boss-fights, these changes do little to address the problem with the comparative performance of guns to melee in the Steel Path.

The buffs to guns are misleading because DE states their intent to enhance their performance in the Steel Path, and yet their solution doesn't actually solve the problem.

 

I agree that guns have weak mods and so I understand the rationale behind implementing the Galvanised package, but disagree that the weak mods represent even half of the reason for their underperformance.

It is obvious to me that the majority of this reason for underperformance is that guns have no mechanic to enable scaling variables. Melee utilises combo to scale, and without combo, no melee build would be even close to effective for anything above level 80. Sniper rifles already have a combo mechanic which allows them to scale, but the scaling variable of sniper rifles is limited and thus would come the issue of having few mods to capitalise on this mechanic.

It doesn't need to be a combo system, but as long as guns had a mechanic allowing them to scale, and mods capitalising on this scaling variable, you would solve about 60% of the performance issue of guns.

This!
Guns should have a Accuracy system, the higher the accuracy (which is already an ingame metric, although it would probably need refinement, cause 500% and more accuracy is just nuts) the higher the damage improvement (kinda like combo counter, except without decay, and instead you lose "combo" with misses).
This could be used with galvanized mods to instead of having a on-hit effect it stacks with accuracy counter, like blood rush. Because, yes, the problem with melee vs weapons is the mods, but its the mods that stack with combo counter, and its existence. And, DE overcorrected a lot, because that was healthy gameplay, the game scales, and one of the most stupid things about the way damage works in the game is that while the enemies scale, you can't scale your damage.
And this is the same issue all over and over, this is why Saryn is so strong, why Equinox is strong, why melee is strong. Because they're among the few instances of damage where we can keep up with the enemy's scaling.
The fact that DE always fails to recognize this is incredibly disheartening and infuriating. Because what they should be doing instead of nerfing anything, melee was perfect as it was, was to port that model to guns.
All they needed to do was add a scaling system for guns like it exists for melee. And a HUGE step to "nerf Saryn" is to give other warframes scaling mechanics, PROPER SCALING MECHANICS, not pretend stuff like Vauban's 3, which looks nice on paper, but is crap when implemented, mostly because the skill itself is not great.

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15 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:



Now there are SO MANY ways to stun lock enemies to make them easy targets that i dont really see whats the point of buffs and nerfs

I take vauban throw vortex and i got my own fidget spinner of enemies waiting for me to kill them

And from that point of view i think problem is in ppl not willing to use arsenal of fire power and advantage they collected and configured/moded/set for themselves
No lets make so 1 thing can do all things like 1 archwing for all missions 1 archgun best for all missions or 1 weapon to deal with all the crap we face

We lack a proper way to switch our stuff we gathered so much over our course of gameplay and not firepower
 

My friend, to solve the issue of the sameness in builds and weapons,  we must first address why something is strong or weak.

You are right, that you can control maps easily with the right Warframe, but the issue is not about control, it's about the performance difference of weapons when killing enemies at high levels.

People are absolutely willing to use the variety of weapons available to them, but only if they perform well in our current "End-Game" which is characterised by Steel Path enemies. The reason people default to the same ONE best archwing, archgun, or weapon is due to their reliable performance, and lack of competition.

This is the cause of the arsenal divide. Melee is generally good, you can bring almost any properly modded melee with you and still have a relatively low TTK on level 300 fodder, but the same cannot be said for primary weapons, secondary weapons, or archguns.

Hence change is needed in order for competitive options to arise.

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The coming changes will do very little for guns. The same few weapons will be used just as now and melee will still be the way to go since it will fuel those 2 ranged weapons you'll bring with you to missions without having to use those 2 weapons very much.

18 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

This!
Guns should have a Accuracy system, the higher the accuracy (which is already an ingame metric, although it would probably need refinement, cause 500% and more accuracy is just nuts) the higher the damage improvement (kinda like combo counter, except without decay, and instead you lose "combo" with misses).
This could be used with galvanized mods to instead of having a on-hit effect it stacks with accuracy counter, like blood rush. Because, yes, the problem with melee vs weapons is the mods, but its the mods that stack with combo counter, and its existence. And, DE overcorrected a lot, because that was healthy gameplay, the game scales, and one of the most stupid things about the way damage works in the game is that while the enemies scale, you can't scale your damage.
And this is the same issue all over and over, this is why Saryn is so strong, why Equinox is strong, why melee is strong. Because they're among the few instances of damage where we can keep up with the enemy's scaling.
The fact that DE always fails to recognize this is incredibly disheartening and infuriating. Because what they should be doing instead of nerfing anything, melee was perfect as it was, was to port that model to guns.
All they needed to do was add a scaling system for guns like it exists for melee. And a HUGE step to "nerf Saryn" is to give other warframes scaling mechanics, PROPER SCALING MECHANICS, not pretend stuff like Vauban's 3, which looks nice on paper, but is crap when implemented, mostly because the skill itself is not great.

I like that idea. One question though. How would it interact with AoE guns? A cap on accuracy built up per shot and each full miss reduces accuracy by that same cap?

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1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

The coming changes will do very little for guns. The same few weapons will be used just as now and melee will still be the way to go since it will fuel those 2 ranged weapons you'll bring with you to missions without having to use those 2 weapons very much.

I like that idea. One question though. How would it interact with AoE guns? A cap on accuracy built up per shot and each full miss reduces accuracy by that same cap?

Just account for the first hit. If the cursor is on an enemy and you shot, its hit, if it doesn't, miss...

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Just now, ReaverKane said:

Just account for the first hit. If the cursor is on an enemy and you shot, its hit, if it doesn't, miss...

It would work for Ogris and similar guns, but not so much for Lenz, Bramma, Tonkor and others where you dont want to hit the main target or cant have the cursor on the target you try to hit due to fall off angle and trajectory etc.

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Just now, SneakyErvin said:

It would work for Ogris and similar guns, but not so much for Lenz, Bramma, Tonkor and others where you dont want to hit the main target or cant have the cursor on the target you try to hit due to fall off angle and trajectory etc.

True, i was actually thinking of stuff like Nukor, Ignis and the like, but those could have different mechanics, i guess. Accuracy could be changed depending on whether initial blast hit enemies or no. So if any enemies hit +1 accuracy, if not, -1. Of course due to the crazy differences between weapons this can't be as linear as the melee combo counter.

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12 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

True, i was actually thinking of stuff like Nukor, Ignis and the like, but those could have different mechanics, i guess. Accuracy could be changed depending on whether initial blast hit enemies or no. So if any enemies hit +1 accuracy, if not, -1. Of course due to the crazy differences between weapons this can't be as linear as the melee combo counter.

Yeah, a more individualized accuracy system would probably be the best. Really liking the idea and it is quite disappointing DE didnt think of something similar instead of the plain boring mod route.

Too bad DE doesnt do like Gazillion, hire people from the community to improve the game in ways only players can.

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Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah, a more individualized accuracy system would probably be the best. Really liking the idea and it is quite disappointing DE didnt think of something similar instead of the plain boring mod route.

Too bad DE doesnt do like Gazillion, hire people from the community to improve the game in ways only players can.

I mean, mods are still required, just the approach they took isn't the best.

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3 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

I mean, mods are still required, just the approach they took isn't the best.

Yeah they should have combined the mods with something else. But DE are happy to do the all eggs in one basket thing and hope it all doesnt rot on arrival.

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Oh yeah, the on kill triggers are not good for steel path. A whole playerbase keeps saying it and we wonder if anybody is listening. This is millions of game hours of experience coming together and saying please change the on kill trigger. We'll see.

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1 hour ago, ZeroX4 said:

we got our butts served to us after we past enemies lvl 15-17

... Haha...

 

... Not even when the event that introduced the Void Tileset that happened to me, and I went there with unmodded Mk1 weaponry... Had a huge blast doing those missions after wasting all my revives on normal start chart, on purpose, just to increase my player skill gains even further than what they already were before I started in Warframe.

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35 minutes ago, (PSN)Joshua_Badhan said:

My friend, to solve the issue of the sameness in builds and weapons,  we must first address why something is strong or weak.

You are right, that you can control maps easily with the right Warframe, but the issue is not about control, it's about the performance difference of weapons when killing enemies at high levels.

People are absolutely willing to use the variety of weapons available to them, but only if they perform well in our current "End-Game" which is characterised by Steel Path enemies. The reason people default to the same ONE best archwing, archgun, or weapon is due to their reliable performance, and lack of competition.

This is the cause of the arsenal divide. Melee is generally good, you can bring almost any properly modded melee with you and still have a relatively low TTK on level 300 fodder, but the same cannot be said for primary weapons, secondary weapons, or archguns.

Hence change is needed in order for competitive options to arise.

Yo are absolutely right

But you see we got 2 options

1 - Every weapon will do more or less same DPS
2 - Some weapons will make more DPS than others

And in option 2 you think with which ppl will run?
With option 1 we will end up taking whatever and there will be no meaning what you actually take to your mission


Now imagine between missions you can fast switch your weapons/their builds without affecting other weapons or warframe
That would expand spectrum of weapons we use
 

Imagine if we remove loadouts completely from the game and think how often ppl will go between missions to switch warframes or gear to suit their needs?
We would generalize our builds instead of use what is the best for the job

For me that is biggest issue in warframe not buffs or nerfs

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24 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

Yo are absolutely right

But you see we got 2 options

1 - Every weapon will do more or less same DPS
2 - Some weapons will make more DPS than others

And in option 2 you think with which ppl will run?
With option 1 we will end up taking whatever and there will be no meaning what you actually take to your mission


Now imagine between missions you can fast switch your weapons/their builds without affecting other weapons or warframe
That would expand spectrum of weapons we use
 

Imagine if we remove loadouts completely from the game and think how often ppl will go between missions to switch warframes or gear to suit their needs?
We would generalize our builds instead of use what is the best for the job

For me that is biggest issue in warframe not buffs or nerfs

There is another option. Weapons with equivalent damage outputs, but different mechanics, and damage types.
You can have several weapons with the exact same DPS, but one that does low damage per shot, with high rate of fire, one weapon that dumps all the damage in a single shot but has a 1shot per second rof. A weapon that does multiples of the damage, but has a even slower rate of fire.
You can then transpose that to different shot types, for example the weapon that does 4x the damage per shot, but shoots 1 time every 4 seconds can do aoe damage, or deploy submunitions (like bramma), you can have the exact same rof and dps but have different damage types that affect enemies differently. Etc.
There's a lot of ways to do things.

Issue is, and you can see this transpire a lot on their enthusiasm for some weapons who flop, their weapon design is blind. They design a "cool" weapon that does "cool" mechanics, but they do so divorced of the actual gameplay. They have a lot of weapons that would be great in PVP shooters like fortnite and whatnot, but because pvp in warframe is so trash they just end up as MR fodder because something that works well vs other players doesn't really add up on a horde shooter like Warframe.
And this is something that's a bit recurrent in a lot of decisions, a lot of decisions are done as if warframe was some different kind of game (like the parazon stuff, it'll always be useless because we're not dueling, we don't have the time to engage with single enemies like they're special, because there's 100 other enemies around it), and that dissociation between what the game original was meant to be and what they actually made, and the fact that a lot of devs still, 8 years in, can't cope with that dissociation is a HUGE factor in why there's so many issues with weapon and warframe design, and balance.

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32 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

But you see we got 2 options

1 - Every weapon will do more or less same DPS
2 - Some weapons will make more DPS than others

And in option 2 you think with which ppl will run?
With option 1 we will end up taking whatever and there will be no meaning what you actually take to your mission
 

I don't agree that those are the only two options, those two options are a consequence of mission types in Warframe having no real objective besides "Kill the thing", which is fine for a game oriented around horde killing. I especially disagree that weapons should have the same Damage Per Second, hence why I specifically express Time to Kill as the metric by which you measure effective performance.

I think that if each gun met at least a minimal standard of performance with the appropriate changes made to guns and melee, there would be more purpose to what we bring because of sentimental attachments to weapons, or to suite a purpose. Do I really need more meaning than "Oh I like that gun and it's can actually kill things" to bring it with me to a mission? There are innate functional differences between LMGs, shotguns, bows and beams, so even if their DPS or TTK were the same, it matters which one you bring because maybe you don't like beam weapons.

I don't care if a weapons like the Lenz or Ogris excelling at area damage and being meta, as long as a weapons like the Latron or Grinlock can excel at single target damage, and from there it's about playstyle, want, or necessity. The problem is that the Latron or Grinlock can barely manage single target damage to the extent that the Latron now with access to it's conclave mod that gives it **multiplicative** damage, and it STILL takes 8-14 seconds to kill a level 150 Bombard.

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Steel path isn't hard....it's just for people that can actually understand the games mechanics:

Armor can be reduced and stripped and enemies can be further debuffed in other ways.

Guns can kill steel path enemies if you're not inexperienced. Not all guns, but this will also change with the weapon buffs.

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10 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

There is another option. Weapons with equivalent damage outputs, but different mechanics, and damage types.
You can have several weapons with the exact same DPS, but one that does low damage per shot, with high rate of fire, one weapon that dumps all the damage in a single shot but has a 1shot per second rof. A weapon that does multiples of the damage, but has a even slower rate of fire.
You can then transpose that to different shot types, for example the weapon that does 4x the damage per shot, but shoots 1 time every 4 seconds can do aoe damage, or deploy submunitions (like bramma), you can have the exact same rof and dps but have different damage types that affect enemies differently. Etc.
There's a lot of ways to do things.

Issue is, and you can see this transpire a lot on their enthusiasm for some weapons who flop, their weapon design is blind. They design a "cool" weapon that does "cool" mechanics, but they do so divorced of the actual gameplay. They have a lot of weapons that would be great in PVP shooters like fortnite and whatnot, but because pvp in warframe is so trash they just end up as MR fodder because something that works well vs other players doesn't really add up on a horde shooter like Warframe.
And this is something that's a bit recurrent in a lot of decisions, a lot of decisions are done as if warframe was some different kind of game (like the parazon stuff, it'll always be useless because we're not dueling, we don't have the time to engage with single enemies like they're special, because there's 100 other enemies around it), and that dissociation between what the game original was meant to be and what they actually made, and the fact that a lot of devs still, 8 years in, can't cope with that dissociation is a HUGE factor in why there's so many issues with weapon and warframe design, and balance.

Look what you said bottom line is option 1

Most players dont care with what but how to kill fast 
 

Aimless ppl like me would go for kuva bramma which 1shot groups
Players that like to aim would go for idk lets say soma prime
While others would go for lets say galatine prime
But in the end we kill all enemies with same speed

Now imagine we stick to what we have but we could choose from loadout to change config on which we modded a weapon for certain faction
And that would open totally new use of weapons u dont see often

And still i do say you are right but i think there are more factors contributing to the problem that all ppl think

But in the end ur idea isnt so far from mine we just want to execute same thing in different way

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13 minutes ago, (PSN)Joshua_Badhan said:

I don't agree that those are the only two options, those two options are a consequence of mission types in Warframe having no real objective besides "Kill the thing", which is fine for a game oriented around horde killing. I especially disagree that weapons should have the same Damage Per Second, hence why I specifically express Time to Kill as the metric by which you measure effective performance.

I think that if each gun met at least a minimal standard of performance with the appropriate changes made to guns and melee, there would be more purpose to what we bring because of sentimental attachments to weapons, or to suite a purpose. Do I really need more meaning than "Oh I like that gun and it's can actually kill things" to bring it with me to a mission? There are innate functional differences between LMGs, shotguns, bows and beams, so even if their DPS or TTK were the same, it matters which one you bring because maybe you don't like beam weapons.

I don't care if a weapons like the Lenz or Ogris excelling at area damage and being meta, as long as a weapons like the Latron or Grinlock can excel at single target damage, and from there it's about playstyle, want, or necessity. The problem is that the Latron or Grinlock can barely manage single target damage to the extent that the Latron now with access to it's conclave mod that gives it **multiplicative** damage, and it STILL takes 8-14 seconds to kill a level 150 Bombard.

DPS = Damage Per Second

When 2 weapons have almost same DPS it does not need to mean their fire rate and output power is the same

Like you said 1 can have high fire rate but low dmg while other can have high damage but low fire rate and/or painful reload time

But for us  to consider weapon A or weapon B and then start thinking about weapon C they all need to kill enemies in kinda same speed
Otherwise we will die in mission which we dont want to happen so our choice is narrowed down to take whats best

Lack of option to switch it easily between missions narrows it down to take what its overall good and not what its best for this mission
I could do all sortie with hikou prime choosing correct element for mission against faction i choose but then i would go with pyrana prime to SP IF I COULD SWITCH IT EASILY
 

But now i run with pyrana prime on all my builds since i dont want to risk a situation where i will kill too slow and die and fail the mission

And about mission type
Interception sabotage rescue capture and lets say spy
Dont require you to even have properly modded weapon yet not even a good one

So its not about mission types its about that WE WAT BLOOOD we want to kill enemies and enjoy it

When you start a game u struggle to kill enemies u wish to have weapon or power that will eradicate enemies and after playing long enough you will
But then you maybe want to use some old weapons that you found fun to use but whats the point if they kill WAY SLOWER than best eq u can get right now?
 

Thats the issue here

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