Why people don't like nerfs in Warframe in particular.

[Traumtulpe]

Nobody likes getting nerfed, but Warframe players have the image of being particularly allergic to it. After every nerf you have people proclaiming that this was the final straw, that they are done with Warframe, and that the game is going to die. In other games, people are diappointed, sure, but they don't consider quitting the game. Even if they spent money on things getting nerfed.

So what is the difference, are Warframe players simply entitled and immature? Well, that would be an entitled, immature, and obviously silly opinion to hold. The people playing Warframe are the same people that play other games. Given that, the cause can only lie with Warframe itself.

What then does Warframe do differently to other games, in regards to nerfs or otherwise? I'd like you to consider 2 possible reasons:

1. In other games, you might have noticed relatively frequent, small changes. 5% less this, 5% less that, and maybe a small buff somewhere else to compensate. This gives players the feeling that the developers know what they are doing, the balance was not quite right, but close, and the things getting nerfed may be dropped in favour of something else, but they remain functional. In Warframe however, nerfs are big. 50% less this, 70% less that, signature ability removed. The player reaction is predictable: "So you have no idea what the hell you are doing, and I'm never going to touch that thing again."
2. Making (a lot of) players not use the affected items anymore is the sole point of any nerf in Warframe. But Warframe is all grind, there's nothing else to the game. People wasted days, weeks, sometimes months, to obtain and optimize the item DE just (on purpose) made them not use anymore. Maybe you've heard the phrase "DE isn't respecting the players time". Well, it's true, isn't it?

In summary, things take a lot of effort and time to obtain, they get nerfed by popularity, the severity of nerfs is not aimed at balance, but at making players stop using the item, and balance in general seems like guesswork at best. Obviously this is dissatisfactory for the players affected.

[SneakyErvin]

It is because gamers in general are entitled and immature. In WF it just so happens that the players dont understand the nerfs full on in comparison to the magnitude of power and lack of "challenge" in the game already. People see big number nerfs that in the end change very little since we are so far above the content in power that we dont need it.

Most other games rely on a linear level system where a 10% nerf may have far more impact to TTK than a 80% damage nerf here, since in that level based game the content is tuned around a certain power level, where every damage number counts. Here an 80% nerf can make you go from 1HK with massive overkill damage to a simple 1HK, which means that complaining about the nerf is pointless, since the end result is still the same since you cannot ½HK thing in the game.

Catchmoon is a fine example of such massive nerfs that still left the gun in a very strong position.

[ZeroX4]

12 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Nobody likes getting nerfed, but Warframe players have the image of being particularly allergic to it. After every nerf you have people proclaiming that this was the final straw, that they are done with Warframe, and that the game is going to die. In other games, people are diappointed, sure, but they don't consider quitting the game. Even if they spent money on things getting nerfed.

So what is the difference, are Warframe players simply entitled and immature? Well, that would be an entitled, immature, and obviously silly opinion to hold. The people playing Warframe are the same people that play other games. Given that, the cause can only lie with Warframe itself.

What then does Warframe do differently to other games, in regards to nerfs or otherwise? I'd like you to consider 2 possible reasons:

1. In other games, you might have noticed relatively frequent, small changes. 5% less this, 5% less that, and maybe a small buff somewhere else to compensate. This gives players the feeling that the developers know what they are doing, the balance was not quite right, but close, and the things getting nerfed may be dropped in favour of something else, but they remain functional. In Warframe however, nerfs are big. 50% less this, 70% less that, signature ability removed. The player reaction is predictable: "So you have no idea what the hell you are doing, and I'm never going to touch that thing again."
2. Making (a lot of) players not use the affected items anymore is the sole point of any nerf in Warframe. But Warframe is all grind, there's nothing else to the game. People wasted days, weeks, sometimes months, to obtain and optimize the item DE just (on purpose) made them not use anymore. Maybe you've heard the phrase "DE isn't respecting the players time". Well, it's true, isn't it?

In summary, things take a lot of effort and time to obtain, they get nerfed by popularity, the severity of nerfs is not aimed at balance, but at making players stop using the item, and balance in general seems like guesswork at best. Obviously this is dissatisfactory for the players affected.

BECAUSE in warframe u have 10000000 ways to do a mission but you enjoy doing it only in 1 way and when someone destroys that to you that is end of the story for you

I HATE olives if i see pizza with olives i could manually remove them but nah that is end of pizza for me

Like there is a game called trove and they just added new class which is locked behind new dungeon system called delve and i just dont want to do that type of dungeons i refuse to go there for any reason and knowing i cant progress anymore with that 1 class in trove i just quit i dont play it anymore and i wont come back until i have other means of obtaining that class

Its like imagine idk beautiful girl or boy or whatever perfect body awesome eyes awesome voice awesome character yet they lack 2 front teeth kinda same story here
 

[SneakyErvin]

I'd also like to note that this behavior is widespread in many games. Just the minor nerfs Outriders introduced early on made the cheese community go total nuts and claim the game was "unplayable". I think the only game I've played where the community has been right regarding overnerfs has been Diablo 3, where Blizzard were big fans of completely destroying full on builds for years. Like the whirlwind barb that turned an into unplayable state for years after a nerf. And then got rebuffed to a state better than the previous for no reason.

[sitfesz]

That's good reasoning I agree with (OP).

I think players feel their asset is getting weakened, because too many others use it, which makes the intention feel unjust.
They also get attached to the playstyle that asset gives, as it provides some more convenient ways other items do. Players invested in their items and after nerfs, they feel the need to invest in other items, which is a gamble, because even after being fully invested it's weak, don't fit the playstyle or the investing process takes too much time or resources. Even a useful and fun weapon won't last forever, because there is the probability of future nerfs when the next useful+fun stuff inevitably becomes popular.

The investment is a potato, tons of forma and the hardest of them all, a good riven. Most players have a riven to their preferred weapons and dumping tons of kuva/plat on an item to get it nerfed with a chance of being too bad makes it to feel personal. The outrage in this specific game comes from feeling the nerfs are a personal offense.

My opinion about the thought process of players when experiencing nerfs is "Why even try to invest in something else? That will get nerfed too. This is just a loophole to farm again to lose again. Why am I even here?".

[Traumtulpe]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Diablo 3, where Blizzard were big fans of completely destroying full on builds for years

Well, in D3 you have no build variety to begin with. Equip one of those sets giving you +10000% damage for a certain skill and play how Blizzard tells you to or go home. It's one of the reasons I don't like it very much.

[ZeroX4]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is because gamers in general are entitled and immature. In WF it just so happens that the players dont understand the nerfs full on in comparison to the magnitude of power and lack of "challenge" in the game already. People see big number nerfs that in the end change very little since we are so far above the content in power that we dont need it.

Most other games rely on a linear level system where a 10% nerf may have far more impact to TTK than a 80% damage nerf here, since in that level based game the content is tuned around a certain power level, where every damage number counts. Here an 80% nerf can make you go from 1HK with massive overkill damage to a simple 1HK, which means that complaining about the nerf is pointless, since the end result is still the same since you cannot ½HK thing in the game.

Catchmoon is a fine example of such massive nerfs that still left the gun in a very strong position.

I really cant say you are wrong but consider 1 more fact
I started playing warframe to help my cousin translate what ppl who want to trade with him say
I stayed because i fell in love with hikou and then i learned that there is hikou prime

After i get hikou prime that was like my dream come true but learning that hikou is not so strong and even riven can help only a bit much of content just dont exist for me in warframe

I prefer to go with hikou to regular mission to enjoy killing enemies and rather than go to SP and either struggle to kill heavier units or go with idk kuva bramma

And for many players nerfs to whole weapon type means destroying their gameplay style even better think of it as u worked so hard to get best EQ to do content without effort and now someone is ruining it for you

Its not so simple as you presented and best example here is self damage on chroma it was never a problem when it existed and now well for many ppl it was end of eidolon hunting as chroma even so its easy to stack vex armor and fury

So keep in mind what can be just a little nerf for you can be destruction of whole enjoyment for others

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Traumtulpe said:

Well, in D3 you have no build variety to begin with. Equip one of those sets giving you +10000% damage for a certain skill and play how Blizzard tells you to or go home. It's one of the reasons I don't like it very much.

Yep, it turned into that crap waaaay too much. Atleast nowdays "all" the sets are viable, previously they nerfed pretty much all sets but one. It is still a drag that each set only works with so few skills out of the already few skills to pick from.

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

And for many players nerfs to whole weapon type means destroying their gameplay style even better think of it as u worked so hard to get best EQ to do content without effort and now someone is ruining it for you

Its not so simple as you presented and best example here is self damage on chroma it was never a problem when it existed and now well for many ppl it was end of eidolon hunting as chroma even so its easy to stack vex armor and fury

So keep in mind what can be just a little nerf for you can be destruction of whole enjoyment for others

But how often do we get nerfs to whole weapon types? I think the melee changes will the first real one in a long time. Those that stopped playing Chroma relied on a crutch to begin with that wasnt needed. Yeah it sucks for them, but there are others that also showed the change did nothing and that they never needed to make use of it prior to the change either. And it wasnt a targeted nerf either, it was a benefit across the board for all other frames and every single playstyle that wanted to utilize explosive weapons.

And that is true entitlement and immaturity, when a single frame is more important to keep intact for a few people, for a single game mode, instead of having a gamewide change that improves the gameplay for the rest of the roster everywhere. 

[Krankbert]

I have for a long time maintained that people overreact so much in this game because Warframe is the first and only online game they play. It’s the only explanation I have for why people here are so completely baffled and outraged by nerfs as a concept.

[Skaleek]

When you own everything in Warframe, i find you care far less about nerfs. I think people don't like nerfs because they feel they've invested in one gun or build in particular.

[Godmode_Ash]

People overreacting seem to be the trend of this generation. Most experienced players would rather adapt and overcome the changes; we are not limited on how we play this game. There is always new discovery or workaround.

Personally I think learning new mechanics/challenge is more fun a than stall gameplay. For example: I thought Glassmaker fight was actually unique and fun.

[Danielw8]

 people invest time on specific weapons for specific missions with specific warframes because of course players allways choose the way how to play the game. And those are not nerfs, are super impactfull nerfs. Catchmoon is a good example, and honestly makes nosense because now we have stropha. Anyways i agree with nerfing melee at this moment

[Zimzala]

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is because gamers in general are entitled and immature.

Pretty much this.

 

7 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

People overreacting seem to be the trend ...

Nothing to do with 'this generation' it's human nature.

Most of the worst gaming man-babies I see are my age - in their 50's.

 

The answer is not complicated.

Most humans do not mature emotionally past the age of about 14-19.

Gamers in particular have very little emotional maturity at scale.

This issue is part of the human condition, for people who literally cannot take any form of correction or criticism that think their way is the only way.

There are no logical reasons behind immature rants and behavior beyond 'brain chemistry', because at the root, the immaturity is illogical and based on uncontrollable emotions.

You cannot fix the flaws in the human emotional fabric with video game code IME.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Zimzala said:

Nothing to do with 'this generation' it's human nature.

I think it has alot to do with "the times" aswell. It matters little what age or generation people are, it comes down to the age/era we live in. Complaining is a hobby for many, no matter what it is about, it can be something personal and it can be complaints for the sake of others. This along with gaming having gone from "geek" culture to mainstream where everyone and their grandmother plays doesnt help either. Since you get more of the normies that quite dont grasp the nature of gaming, especially the online kind, so they complain about how they lost what was "theirs" and so on.

The same kind of people that complain at McD's if they find a crack in the square piece of cheese on their burger.

[ZeroX4]

35 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But how often do we get nerfs to whole weapon types? I think the melee changes will the first real one in a long time. Those that stopped playing Chroma relied on a crutch to begin with that wasnt needed. Yeah it sucks for them, but there are others that also showed the change did nothing and that they never needed to make use of it prior to the change either. And it wasnt a targeted nerf either, it was a benefit across the board for all other frames and every single playstyle that wanted to utilize explosive weapons.

And that is true entitlement and immaturity, when a single frame is more important to keep intact for a few people, for a single game mode, instead of having a gamewide change that improves the gameplay for the rest of the roster everywhere. 

I dont care how often do we get nerfs i dont care if its each week or once per year
When someone is breaking your favorite toy that is end of the story for you

Im not big anime fan i just watch sometimes something that seems interesting
But i do remember at some point in naruto character named jirayia died which was 1 of many characters there
But for many ppl that was end of the story they stopped watching naruto at all
 

So if you go somewhere for some reason and someone destroys it for you then you have no reason to go there anymore

And i think that is what we are observing here right now
Not that warframe will be destroyed after nerfs but that many many many ppl are right now afraid changes will destroy their gameplay style

They come back here because they found their way of playing the game that is enjoyable to them and they are simply afraid someone is going to take that away from them
For example i use mouse with 2 additional side buttons under my thumb which i map to various things
I cant imagine playing many games with mouse that have only 3 buttons and not 5 and probably i would just stop playing them

Im all in for lets just wait see what we get and then start to cry if its bad but i cant blame ppl for being afraid

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

I think it has alot to do with "the times" aswell. It matters little what age or generation people are, it comes down to the age/era we live in. Complaining is a hobby for many, no matter what it is about, it can be something personal and it can be complaints for the sake of others. This along with gaming having gone from "geek" culture to mainstream where everyone and their grandmother plays doesnt help either. Since you get more of the normies that quite dont grasp the nature of gaming, especially the online kind, so they complain about how they lost what was "theirs" and so on.

The same kind of people that complain at McD's if they find a crack in the square piece of cheese on their burger.

Eh, people say this but look at history.

People say 'no one talks to each other anymore, they are all on their phones (talking to each other)', yet if you look at old photos, pre-cell phone, everyone just had a newspaper open, blocking out the people around them.

This 'now it is popular' argument sounds like a tween mad about their favorite indie band becoming 'mainstream', IMO.

This is just human nature, it has nothing to do with this era specifically, we just have more tools with which to whine and moan faster and at scale.

You can fight human nature all you like, I know I do, but it's really an uphill, mostly fruitless battle that gives back very little other than pain, IME. 

[Dairaion]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Nobody likes getting nerfed, but Warframe players have the image of being particularly allergic to it. After every nerf you have people proclaiming that this was the final straw, that they are done with Warframe, and that the game is going to die. In other games, people are diappointed, sure, but they don't consider quitting the game. Even if they spent money on things getting nerfed.

So what is the difference, are Warframe players simply entitled and immature? Well, that would be an entitled, immature, and obviously silly opinion to hold. The people playing Warframe are the same people that play other games. Given that, the cause can only lie with Warframe itself.

What then does Warframe do differently to other games, in regards to nerfs or otherwise? I'd like you to consider 2 possible reasons:

1. In other games, you might have noticed relatively frequent, small changes. 5% less this, 5% less that, and maybe a small buff somewhere else to compensate. This gives players the feeling that the developers know what they are doing, the balance was not quite right, but close, and the things getting nerfed may be dropped in favour of something else, but they remain functional. In Warframe however, nerfs are big. 50% less this, 70% less that, signature ability removed. The player reaction is predictable: "So you have no idea what the hell you are doing, and I'm never going to touch that thing again."
2. Making (a lot of) players not use the affected items anymore is the sole point of any nerf in Warframe. But Warframe is all grind, there's nothing else to the game. People wasted days, weeks, sometimes months, to obtain and optimize the item DE just (on purpose) made them not use anymore. Maybe you've heard the phrase "DE isn't respecting the players time". Well, it's true, isn't it?

In summary, things take a lot of effort and time to obtain, they get nerfed by popularity, the severity of nerfs is not aimed at balance, but at making players stop using the item, and balance in general seems like guesswork at best. Obviously this is dissatisfactory for the players affected.

They know the game is grind, they know that nerfs represent the literal loss of life, we only get so much time on earth and they're devaluing it by nerfing things we worked to obtain without a proper give back.

at least give us Prisma Kuva armor set with syandanas or something.

 

you know what, thats my new demand, in return for the nukor becoming a garbage atomos i want prisma Kuva armor and braids for my syandana and weapons. otherwise they aren't sorry they have to do this.

[Zimzala]

4 minutes ago, Dairaion said:

... they know that nerfs represent the literal loss of life, we only get so much time on earth and they're devaluing it by nerfing things we worked to obtain without a proper give back....

Holy crap.

Go outside for a minute, walk around, breathe, eat a sandwich, chase a lover, something, anything to break out of this kind of self-induced negative outlook over numerical changes in a video game.

This is not a healthy way to view video games, like, at all.

I implore you to take a step back, maybe 10.

It's just a game for entertainment, take a breath.

[Dairaion]

10 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Holy crap.

Go outside for a minute, walk around, breathe, eat a sandwich, chase a lover, something, anything to break out of this kind of self-induced negative outlook over numerical changes in a video game.

This is not a healthy way to view video games, like, at all.

I implore you to take a step back, maybe 10.

It's just a game for entertainment, take a breath.

dude i jog for hours a day, workout, and go to work, i have a life and that only makes me realize how much of a actual loss it is personally because i could've been doing anything else and it would have ended up being more fulfilling than those 2-4 hours of warframe. nerfing things is actively robbing you of time that could be spent more productively and when you realize this you understand why people quit and don't come back for months or years. i just came back 2 months or so ago, i don't regret it but it's looking like another off period is coming down the chute.

[RazerXPrime]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Nobody likes getting nerfed, but Warframe players have the image of being particularly allergic to it. After every nerf you have people proclaiming that this was the final straw, that they are done with Warframe, and that the game is going to die. In other games, people are diappointed, sure, but they don't consider quitting the game. Even if they spent money on things getting nerfed.

Lol, try League of Legends. People are far more salty there after nerfs.

People hate nerfs in general.

Also, I doubt people actually quit Warframe after nerfs. Maybe one or two losers after a one big update. They will post a salty complain topic and then leave. Well good riddance.

[Zimzala]

4 minutes ago, Dairaion said:

dude i jog for hours a day, workout, and go to work, i have a life and that only makes me realize how much of a actual loss it is personally because i could've been doing anything else and it would have ended up being more fulfilling than those 2-4 hours of warframe. nerfing things is actively robbing you of time that could be spent more productively and when you realize this you understand why people quit and don't come back for months or years. i just came back 2 months or so ago, i don't regret it but it's looking like another off period is coming down the chute.

If you think a game company is robbing you of your life because of changing numbers in a game, the game is not the problem.

If you are no longer being entertained, great, move on to something else, that's healthy and normal.

To think the game companies are robbing you of your life?

That's literally delusional, good luck.

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Zimzala said:

This is just human nature, it has nothing to do with this era specifically, we just have more tools with which to whine and moan faster and at scale.

That is exactly what I'm saying and those tools we have are due to the era/age we live in. Social media has become a popularity tool, which also transfers to game forums, which in return have those same people due to the now very mainstream nature of gaming as a culture. Which results in the normies rather complaining as they do elsewhere instead of actually grasping the concept of online live service gaming.

And complaining is popular, it is a hobby, heck it is even a living for many. Which can be seen by all streams and channels that pop up like bunnies all over where the sole purpose is to complain.

16 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

I dont care how often do we get nerfs i dont care if its each week or once per year
When someone is breaking your favorite toy that is end of the story for you

Im not big anime fan i just watch sometimes something that seems interesting
But i do remember at some point in naruto character named jirayia died which was 1 of many characters there
But for many ppl that was end of the story they stopped watching naruto at all
 

So if you go somewhere for some reason and someone destroys it for you then you have no reason to go there anymore

And i think that is what we are observing here right now
Not that warframe will be destroyed after nerfs but that many many many ppl are right now afraid changes will destroy their gameplay style

They come back here because they found their way of playing the game that is enjoyable to them and they are simply afraid someone is going to take that away from them
For example i use mouse with 2 additional side buttons under my thumb which i map to various things
I cant imagine playing many games with mouse that have only 3 buttons and not 5 and probably i would just stop playing them

Im all in for lets just wait see what we get and then start to cry if its bad but i cant blame ppl for being afraid

The "you" is never important when it comes to balance. If "you" is the important part in gaming, then you are entitled.

A character dying in a story cannot be compared to game balance, since they happen for different reasons.

If the gamestyle is destroyed for some it doesnt matter if it is healthy for the game in the longrun, in such a case it is for the greater good. If it destroys the gameplay for everyone or the majority, then yeah it is bad since it breaks the game. Again, the "you" doesnt matter in gaming balance, the "whole" is what is important, the thing that benefits the most and the game at the same time.

And anyone that has played online games previously understand this perfectly well. Changes, rebalancing, nerfs, buffs and so on are the nature of these games.

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is exactly what I'm saying and those tools we have are due to the era/age we live in. Social media has become a popularity tool, which also transfers to game forums, which in return have those same people due to the now very mainstream nature of gaming as a culture. Which results in the normies rather complaining as they do elsewhere instead of actually grasping the concept of online live service gaming.

And complaining is popular, it is a hobby, heck it is even a living for many. Which can be seen by all streams and channels that pop up like bunnies all over where the sole purpose is to complain.

Sure, but none of that is new or different than it was 100 or a 1000 years ago beyond having technology to make the loop close faster.

The Royal Jester, The Art Critic, these are not new concepts, people have made a living off of complaining for as long as we have been human.

Just because the humans have more tools to make it easier to complain and faster to get those complaints heard, does not mean we as humans have changed.

Even your attitude toward 'normies' is nothing new - it's just the old 'us v them' that's built into our tribal-based evolution and DNA.

None of these things are new if you study history and human behavior.

[SneakyErvin]

7 minutes ago, Dairaion said:

because i could've been doing anything else and it would have ended up being more fulfilling than those 2-4 hours of warframe. nerfing things is actively robbing you of time that could be spent more productively 

That doesnt matter if they nerf or not. Anything will be more fulfilling than playing games for 2-4 hours if you want to see actual fruit of your labor and not simply just have a cheerio good 'ol time during each of those 2-4 hour sessions. There is zero productivity in a game, just as there is zero productivity in a movie. The only entertainment that has no impact on producitivity would be music or e-books, since you can listen to and enjoy it while doing other productive things.