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Why people don't like nerfs in Warframe in particular.


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Not to beat the dead horse further, but has anyone actually hashed out the napkin math for the Blood Rush Nerf?

I'm just your average everyday caveman modder so I don't quite get the theoretical loss, but is going from Red crits to Orange Crits really enough to cause a problem outside of long endurance runs, Steel Path or no?

What I mean is, has anyone calculated out if the nerfs are cause players losing killing power, or just overkilling power?

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3 hours ago, Danielw8 said:

Catchmoon is a good example

This weapon used to be the main weapon I would use, would barely use Melee ... Until they gutted the thing to the point where you can't even hit the broadside of a barn by standing 3 feet away from it. ...

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12 minutes ago, SephirothWS said:

This weapon used to be the main weapon I would use, would barely use Melee ... Until they gutted the thing to the point where you can't even hit the broadside of a barn by standing 3 feet away from it. ...

Given the width of catchmoons projectile, I don't think the issue is the gun.

Speaking as someone who has a 0.7 FR Catchmoon secondary and a 5 clip Catchmoon primary as my default loadout.

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18 minutes ago, SephirothWS said:

This weapon used to be the main weapon I would use, would barely use Melee ... Until they gutted the thing to the point where you can't even hit the broadside of a barn by standing 3 feet away from it. ...

All they did was lower the projectile range. You still have to aim, and that's on the player only.

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3 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Nobody likes getting nerfed, but Warframe players have the image of being particularly allergic to it.

We really don't, though. Go on any community for a game that runs continual updates and you'll find the same complaints and rants as here, and in some places it's much worse. I think there's a special focus here on how Warframe players respond to nerfing because, well, this website is where we talk about Warframe.

Simply put, players of a game are hard-wired to figure out how to play that game in the "best way possible". This takes the form of making certain in-game choices that lead to making victory most likely, resulting in the most player power, and/or ensuring a victory with the lowest effort possible. That's just basic game theory, and not just for video games. Players hunting down the best ways to win always occurs in some fashion, and a meta develops in everything from Warframe to Slime Rancher to chess.

When the creators of the game change the method that gives players the likeliest or lowest-effort victory, some players will get upset. Post change, they are suddenly less likely to win or must exert more effort to win, and they can't reverse this because the change was affected by elements beyond their control. People ranting about nerfs tend not to see the design reasons behind a change past their own gamer perspective on how it affects them personally. For a lot of people, any change that makes a victory less likely or greater effort in any sense of the word is bad and only bad, because it affects how they win the game, no matter how fun or boring their original method actually was. If you want a Warframe example of this, delve back into the Forums and read the rants defending "max range Scoliac spamming slide attack into edge of doorframe". To them it didn't matter that the game was reduced to playing on a macro and that removing this ability was in the better interests of a better, healthier game. The only thing that mattered was that now they couldn't win missions by doing literally nothing. This is a pretty extreme example of how game theory and meta create the mentality behind "Nevar nErf enythung evar!!!!!1" but the point stands.

I think it's important I mention here that it's okay to disagree with nerfs if you think something isn't a problem for the balance of the game. I only mean to say that if a player is opposed to literally every nerf ever, or if they think balance doesn't matter, they're probably not concerned with balance or design and only care about how playing the game makes them feel personally.

4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

they get nerfed by popularity, the severity of nerfs is not aimed at balance

I really wish Reb had never used "popularity" to describe balance changes. It's an oversimplification that some players really misunderstand. A thing being popular is not why they nerf the things they nerf. The popularity isn't the cause, it's a symptom that shows the devs there's a balance issue. Immense popularity is the canary in the coalmine, not the gas leak.

For example, let's say you're the lead designer of a PvP game like Overwatch, and you notice that like 95% of matches played (at all levels of play) have someone on both teams playing the same character (let's say it's Tracer). This is because she is intensely overpowered. Game theory and your game's meta dictate to the players that picking Tracer for every game is how you play the game best, so she's always picked. The popularity tips you off to the overpowered nature of the character, but you don't nerf Tracer because she is popular. You nerf her because she is too strong. Overwatch is a game where you pick 5 characters for a team, not a game where you pick 4 characters for a team and someone must play Tracer as the 5th. It's not Tracerwatch.

Looking at Warframe, balance passes that nerf certain popular weapons do not nerf weapons because of popularity. Popularity (such as exemplified by the Catchmoon and Kuva Nukor)  is just tipping off the devs that a certain option is so much more powerful than anything else, that players in general see no point in playing anything other than Kuvanukorframe.

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@Traumtulpe @SneakyErvin @Zimzala
And the rest of those who like to point others what to do and what not.

People did not like the nerfs DE introduced - how dare they !!
People express their disagreement with the upcoming changes - they have no right to do so! They are overreacting, DE knows what they are doing!
They are not expressing their concerns, they are just entitled and immature. /s


FFS who are you to judge the others ? DE community are indeed negative towards the nerfs. And it's not because they are immature or entitled, its because DE has a habit to overdo things while "balancing"(buff too much, but more often nerf too much) and never touch that part of game for a long time after. So its set to stone for quite a while, even if it wasn't handled properly. And recent dev workshop changes - were NOT.
Balancing is not about
tipping the scale on one side - its about both sides stay on the same level. And it looks like you and DE have no idea about it.

Edited by Unibot
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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Unibot said:

DE community are indeed negative towards the nerfs. And it's not because they are immature or entitled, its because DE has a habit to overdo things while "balancing"

That is pretty much exactly what I said? Try reading the first post again, seriously.

47 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Not to beat the dead horse further, but has anyone actually hashed out the napkin math for the Blood Rush Nerf?

Yes, depends on the weapon of course, but around 20%. CO is 28% at 4 status effects, replacing Berserker with Primed Fury 23% (if you had Arcane Strike). So combo melee got nerfed by >50%.

Edited by Traumtulpe
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4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

In other games, you might have noticed relatively frequent, small changes. 5% less this, 5% less that, and maybe a small buff somewhere else to compensate. This gives players the feeling that the developers know what they are doing, the balance was not quite right, but close, and the things getting nerfed may be dropped in favour of something else, but they remain functional. In Warframe however, nerfs are big. 50% less this, 70% less that, signature ability removed. The player reaction is predictable: "So you have no idea what the hell you are doing, and I'm never going to touch that thing again."

When there's big imbalance problems, big buffs/nerfs are needed. It's not rocket surgery. A 5% nerf wouldn't be able to put melee on the same level as guns - if the devs would've put forth that kind of nerf, you bet people would be questioning what the heck they're doing.

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I really don't mind the nerfs that much since most are for the health of the game. However, it reflects so much on how DE release hype up new items just for the sake of it.

I watched streams where they show graphs and tables of overused items up for the chopping block to give it some justice. Wasted time imo if they only put some more thought out of their own creations.

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Только что, Traumtulpe сказал:

That is pretty much exactly what I said? Try reading the first post again, seriously.

If you agree on that point - why come and blame community for acting as expected ? Why create it here in general and not in feedback ? If you see a problem - shouldn't you try to solve the problem and not the consequences ?
But you are pointing your finger at community. All I see in this thread is "WTF people are complaining! EWWW!!! You are not supposed to act like that!" But people do and they have a right to.

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2 minutes ago, Unibot said:

If you agree on that point - why come and blame community for acting as expected ? Why create it here in general and not in feedback ? If you see a problem - shouldn't you try to solve the problem and not the consequences ?
But you are pointing your finger at community. All I see in this thread is "WTF people are complaining! EWWW!!! You are not supposed to act like that!" But people do and they have a right to.

I do not understand how you can read the first post and come to that conclusion. English isn't my first language, but am I really that bad at reading and writing it?

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10 минут назад, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu сказал:

When there's big imbalance problems, big buffs/nerfs are needed. It's not rocket surgery. A 5% nerf wouldn't be able to put melee on the same level as guns - if the devs would've put forth that kind of nerf, you bet people would be questioning what the heck they're doing.

Try chopping a slice of bread with an axe instead of cutting it with a knife and see the result. This is how DE handle balancing here and it has nothing to do with big imbalances. Using crude instruments for a delicate work.

Edited by Unibot
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1 minute ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

When there's big imbalance problems, big buffs/nerfs are needed. It's not rocket surgery. A 5% nerf wouldn't be able to put melee on the same level as guns - if the devs would've put forth that kind of nerf, you bet people would be questioning what the heck they're doing.

It's a symptom of DE's priority being rule of cool instead of game balance.

Power scaling in Warframe is like power scaling in DBZ with all the power multipliers thrown around everywhere.

You can be squaded up with SSJGB Goku watching him evaporate Frieza Saga soldiers while you watch on as Yamcha, while he complains that he wants a real fight.

Warframe needs to lay off all the multiplication.

 

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18 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Yes, depends on the weapon of course, but around 20%. CO is 28% at 4 status effects, replacing Berserker with Primed Fury 23% (if you had Arcane Strike). So combo melee got nerfed by >50%.

Small thing, that doesn't answer the latter part of my post.

Is that killing power lost or overkilling power lost?

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9 минут назад, Traumtulpe сказал:

I do not understand how you can read the first post and come to that conclusion. English isn't my first language, but am I really that bad at reading and writing it?

I indeed misunderstood your first post and jumped fast with conclusions. I want to make an appology to you as I have overreacted about your opinion on the subject.

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1 minute ago, Aldain said:

Small thing, that doesn't answer the latter part of my post.

Is that killing power lost or overkilling power lost?

Again, depends on the weapon. You won't notice any difference at all with a good melee weapon, unless you are fighting extraordinary enemies (endurance runs). That being said, if you do enjoy endurance runs, I don't elieve you'll want to use combo melee any longer. The nerf is significant, and there are much better options now.

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7 minutes ago, Unibot said:

Try chopping a slice of bread with an axe instead of cutting it with a knife and see the result. This is how DE handle balancing here and it has nothing to do with big imbalances. Using crude instruments for a delicate work.

Funny comparison considering that the current difference between your average gun and your average melee might as well be the difference between dropping an entire bread loaf vs. an entire tree trunk on the heads of your foes. Big things require big tools. Simple as that. Also, see:

7 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

It's a symptom of DE's priority being rule of cool instead of game balance.

Power scaling in Warframe is like power scaling in DBZ with all the power multipliers thrown around everywhere.

You can be squaded up with SSJGB Goku watching him evaporate Frieza Saga soldiers while you watch on as Yamcha, while he complains that he wants a real fight.

Warframe needs to lay off all the multiplication.

Some parts of Warframe have gotten way too Rule of Cool'd while some have been all but forgotten. The result is a game where a 5% nerf ain't gonna cut it.

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14 minutes ago, Unibot said:

Try chopping a slice of bread with an axe instead of cutting it with a knife and see the result. This is how DE handle balancing here and it has nothing to do with big imbalances. Using crude instruments for a delicate work.

Considering the enormity of the task (and the sheer scope of the disparity), crude instruments are likely necessary.

Since we're going down the analogy route, I would liken the balancing approach you seem to be advocating to attempting to cleanly cut down an oak tree with a scalpel. Technically doable, but progress will be so slow and you'll use up so many blades that you'd be much better off using the aforementioned axe and hewing the result afterward.

Edited by Corvid
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4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

In summary, things take a lot of effort and time to obtain, they get nerfed by popularity, the severity of nerfs is not aimed at balance, but at making players stop using the item, and balance in general seems like guesswork at best. Obviously this is dissatisfactory for the players affected.

The squeaky wheel is what generally gets the oil here...

  • Enough youtubers squeaked and squawked about weapon balance in the Steel Path —Even though The Steel Path isn't supposed to be a measure of balance or that melee and ranged have actually never had parity to begin with.
  • Then enough players came to the forums and squawked for the same things.

The good news is that DE doesn't make a habit of nuking things into uselessness any longer so whatever they nerf is still a "good option" even if it isn't the "best or only option" any more. 

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3 минуты назад, Corvid сказал:

Considering the enormity of the task (and the sheer scope of the disparity), crude instruments are likely necessary.

Since we're going down the analogy route, I would liken the balancing approach you seem to be advocating to attempting to cleanly cut down an oak tree with a scalpel. Technically doable, but progress will be so slow and you'll use up so many blades that you'd be much better off using the aforementioned axe and hewing the result afterward.

 

4 минуты назад, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu сказал:

Funny comparison considering that the current difference between your average gun and your average melee might as well be the difference between dropping an entire bread loaf vs. an entire tree trunk on the heads of your foes. Big things require big tools. Simple as that. Also, see:

Some parts of Warframe have gotten way too Rule of Cool'd while some have been all but forgotten. The result is a game where a 5% nerf ain't gonna cut it.


It was never about cutting a big chunk from a tree. It was about cutting the right amount. Cut too much or too little - end up with NO balance. Small cuts are needed to make fine tuning. And there are no small cuts. I would agree with you if it was first big cut and then small adjustments after. But there are NO adjustments after the big cut. It's final and DE don't care if it they overdid or underdid the chopping. One big chop and see what happens - that is the logic they have.

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4 minutes ago, Unibot said:

(...) I would agree with you if it was first big cut and then small adjustments after. (...)

tl;dr: You're not actually opposed to big cuts. You're opposed to the lacking follow-up. Feel free to complain about that if you want to, but going by your statement, you agree with the principle of using crude tools for crude jobs, instead of delicate tools for crude jobs.

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2 hours ago, Lakais said:

Here's a thought: Warframe players are no more or less vitriolic than players in other games' communities.

I don't know about that. "Communities" that have sent death threats to their developers (Pablo in December 2019) are most often seen in PvP games. WF stands out as one of the few PvE-only games with the very dubious honor of crossing that line. 

And all because he *THOUGHT* Saryn needed a nerf. Not that he nerfed her, not that he changed her, but that he THOUGHT she needed it. This means that even the THOUGHT of a nerf was unacceptable to this community.

Edited by Jarriaga
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2 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

Nerfing in WF is like plucking an icecream cone from a kid and leaving the crying infant there instead of giving him a toy or candy instead.

another game i've played for over 3k hours is dota 2 and that is no stranger to nerfs and changing meta every patch but there was always something buffed to same degree to make players change.

Uhh, hell no bro. It's more like DE gave that kid an oversized ice cream AND a giant piece of cake the kid will never finish, decided to take a little bit of ice cream away to make it more reasonable, and the kid went absolutely nuclear with the whine fest! 

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Только что, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu сказал:

tl;dr: You're not actually opposed to big cuts. You're opposed to the lacking follow-up. Feel free to complain about that if you want to, but going by your statement, you agree with the principle of using crude tools for crude jobs, instead of delicate tools for crude jobs.

No. The job is not done after using crude tools. Final adjustments can't be done with those and using delicate tools is the balancing, everything used before is pre-balance preparations.

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