Why people don't like nerfs in Warframe in particular.

[(NSW)Greybones]

On 2021-06-23 at 2:01 AM, Traumtulpe said:

Exactly. Though please don't use misleading language, it's not like that was a bug, but simply how shotguns had always worked. DE likes to do that; "Oh, the way we designed the game and were happy for it to be the last 5 years? The thing everybody knew about? Yeah, we don't like it anymore, now it's something we had never intended, we were just... busy the last 5 years. Yeah, busy..."

And what this change did in practice, is cut the status chance of all good shotguns by 2/3, a massive nerf that immediately dumpstered all affected weapons, and made all affected Rivens worth- and useless.

Was still a weird thing. Not sure I’d have banked on it not being changed at some point in time

 

But I digress, @Traumtulpe. I asked what you used them for, and got my answer 👍

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Was still a weird thing. Not sure I’d have banked on it not being changed at some point in time

Which is the point, if you are careful about what might get changed tomorrow on a whim, you don't invest in anything anymore.

Also, there was no other way to use shotguns; As can be seen from the effects of the change. So your suggestion just means: "Should have known better than to use shotguns."

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Which is the point, if you are careful about what might get changed tomorrow on a whim, you don't invest in anything anymore.

Also, there was no other way to use shotguns; As can be seen from the effects of the change. So your suggestion just means: "Should have known better than to use shotguns."

Hmm.

[DrivaMain]

14 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

Also, I doubt people actually quit Warframe after nerfs. Maybe one or two losers after a one big update. They will post a salty complain topic and then leave. Well good riddance.

They'll quit the game and then came back a few months later. Then, quit again if their new found setup got bashed by the nerf hammer. The cycle repeats.

[Krankbert]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb EnwoQ:

Most people who complain are not because of the nerf but the lies
That they will not nerf melee

You got it the wrong way around. They explicitly said multiple times that there would be nerfs, and you people now spread the lie that the devs said that there wouldn't be nerfs. This is just another example of opposition to nerfs being driven by dishonesty and ignorance.

[ShortCat]

21 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

So what is the difference, are Warframe players simply entitled and immature?

Not gona wade through 5 pages of replies, so i do not know if this idea was thrown around: players in WF only use a handfull of gear options spread across all gear slots. This gear often happens to be the most brocken meta stuff, so that when DE changes/nerfes one weapon/Frame it affects like 30% of the gear those players use. Thus panic & rage. Just look at random player profiles in recruit/region or trade chats; only a small number of players actually have a divers arsenal.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2021-06-22 at 11:39 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Looking at you post, I feel like summarizing it as such: "Warframe players are spoiled children, too dumb to have a valid opinion, and there exists no semblance of balance in any aspect of the game, so no changes can ever make a meaningful difference."

Correct me if there is a misunderstanding, but I cannot say that I appreciate such a defeatist attitude, belittling both players and developers alike, while saying nothing constructive or useful at the same time. The fact that quite a number of people seem to agree disappoints me immensely.

I guess people agree because they they actually got my point, which you apparently didnt.

I'm not saying WF players are spoiled children, I'm saying the people that complain about WF nerfs are spoiled and dont fully understand the scope of the nerfs. I'm also not of a defeatist attitude... how the heck did you even get that idea? I'm saying all balance changes/nerfs are for the better for the game, they just arent very noticable. DE doesnt do enough though, that is my point, they could go far harsher on nerfs. Like I said, our power is so immense in this game that a 80% damage nerf is less noticable than a 10% damage nerf in a game that is balanced. That is the scope of things people need to look at before starting to complain about how they got nerfed.

However as I said in my follow up on page 1. This isnt a WF specific issue, though there is less reason to complain in WF regarding nerfs than there is in other games, since the impact is much smaller even if the numbers on the nerfs look bigger. Which is why I said that the WF complainers dont fully understand the scope.

Complaining that you may suddenly go from a 60 to 66 second TTK in a game due to a 10% damage nerf is viable, since you now have to survive 6 more seconds versus that mob, which in cases can be hard. But complaining about an 80% damage nerf when you still 1HK 99% of the mobs in the same content and require a 2HK on a select few previous 1-hit-wonders isnt really viable. Especially when you can still 1HK those heavier mobs aswell by just altering your tactic i.e ignoring to hit them a second time and letting a DoT finish them the coming second. Now if we were just barely killing those mobs earlier a nerf of 80% would just be nuts, and even a 10% nerf would have big impact.

Now to be clear, this isnt me saying we shouldnt criticize DE, I'm just saying that complaining about damage nerfs in WF is silly. I'm fully fine with people complaining or criticizing how the approach towards the nerfs is made. Like for instance the upcoming changes where DE puts all the weight on on-kill mechanics, that is just idiotic in my book. Not because it doesnt work, since it does versus 99% of the things we fight, but because it may not work in the future if more single encounters are introduced. Which in such cases means they need to go back and spend work on these changes again, instead of just safeguarding against possible content additions now when they already rework, nerf and buff things. Though it isnt unexpected since planning and DE doesnt seem to go hand in hand. 

 

On 2021-06-22 at 9:12 PM, KlaussKlauss said:

-snip-

Except alot of people rationally do it freely every 2-3 months in any game with seasons. Many willingly pay to do it with every single expansion release in MMOs. In WF we dont need to do it most of the time, no matter how nerfed we get. I cant recall the last time I felt my progress was rendered void in WF. Not even the massive Catchmoon nerf made me feel like I had to find a new gun. 

And how does you feeling powerful change if you 1HK something after a nerf just as you did prior to the nerf? Oh no you hit that 500k eHP mob for only 1.5 million after the nerf instead of 5 million prior to it.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Now to be clear, this isnt me saying we shouldnt criticize DE, I'm just saying that complaining about damage nerfs in WF is silly. I'm fully fine with people complaining or criticizing how the approach towards the nerfs is made. Like for instance the upcoming changes where DE puts all the weight on on-kill mechanics, that is just idiotic in my book. Not because it doesnt work, since it does versus 99% of the things we fight, but because it may not work in the future if more single encounters are introduced. Which in such cases means they need to go back and spend work on these changes again, instead of just safeguarding against possible content additions now when they already rework, nerf and buff things. Though it isnt unexpected since planning and DE doesnt seem to go hand in hand. 

DE slaps too many multipliers in the game without much thought and they aren't conveyed well. The fact that the original Condition Overload was exponential with itself and its own multiplier wouldn't have made it into a mainline update in any other game.

What DE should have done from the start was limit all damage mods into 3 categories of multipliers and never creating more.

Base Damage, Multi-shot/Stance Multipliers and Elemental Damage.

Viral procs and Critical Damage should just add Base Damage so that Status, Critical and Hybrid weapons are in the same ball park of damage.

IPS should have the highest damage modifiers with +75% and no negative modifiers, while combined elementals should have the weakest with +25% with negative multipliers against all but what they are supposed to be strong against.

Stacking more elemental damage and getting a higher damage multiplier on top shouldn't be a thing.

Enemy armor should have never scaled as all it does is make things like Bleed ever more valuable as armor scales higher.

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

DE slaps too many multipliers in the game without much thought and they aren't conveyed well. The fact that the original Condition Overload was exponential with itself and its own multiplier wouldn't have made it into a mainline update in any other game.

What DE should have done from the start was limit all damage mods into 3 categories of multipliers and never creating more.

Base Damage, Multi-shot/Stance Multipliers and Elemental Damage.

Viral procs and Critical Damage should just add Base Damage so that Status, Critical and Hybrid weapons are in the same ball park of damage.

IPS should have the highest damage modifiers with +75% and no negative modifiers, while combined elementals should have the weakest with +25% with negative multipliers against all but the what their supposed to be strong against.

Enemy armor should have never scaled as all it does is make things like Bleed ever more valuable as armor scales higher.

So very true, I dont think I can agree more.

I think crit could have been good as a multiplier though, like in most other games. DE's problem is that they went into it without a crit chance cap along with a "brutal hit" system i.e oj and red crits. They should have kept it lower, with crit modifiers that maybe add +50% crit chance tops, so a weapon with 30% innate crit could reach 45% with such modding. The things like on-crit mods and such could actually be a thing that doesnt go all ape.

Marvel Heroes had the same problem with crit rating, brutal strike rating, crit damage and brutal damage. It just turned silly when you could push the brutal stats high enough.

[Flyshlee]

I my opinion, the biggest part of the problem is that DE waits too long to nerf things. They let us dump 8 Forma into a weapon, find the perfect Riven for it, reorganize our builds around it, get used to it being part of the game, and so on and so forth. Only after it's been our favorite toy for months (or even a year) do they suddenly decide it's broken or overpowered. If DE nerfed the things they don't like faster, people wouldn't have the chance to get too invested in them and would adjust to the change a lot easier.

[Lakais]

On 2021-06-22 at 9:15 PM, Jarriaga said:

I don't know about that. "Communities" that have sent death threats to their developers (Pablo in December 2019) are most often seen in PvP games. WF stands out as one of the few PvE-only games with the very dubious honor of crossing that line. 

And all because he *THOUGHT* Saryn needed a nerf. Not that he nerfed her, not that he changed her, but that he THOUGHT she needed it. This means that even the THOUGHT of a nerf was unacceptable to this community.

Issue of perception. You assume that other devs or studios do not receive threats from special individuals. They are usually not made publicly known. Hell, animation and comic studios receive threats for their work. Nothing new there. 
Not saying that behavior is tolerable or expected. It's abhorrent, at best said as a very bad joke or as an emotional outburst and at worst, the words of a troubled individual. 

I will say that Warframe, while PvE, is still competitive. There is still a sort of round-a-bout PvP aspect to normal gameplay. Especially in groups. We don't compete in who is best at killing each other, we compete for the enemies to kill. That is what drives this practically self-destroying drive for the biggest number. It's to be the one who gets to interact with the game. It has also driven the speeding need. Those two things have borne out of the "top tier" player base and have trickled down to become the norm. 
Why do some people run off in survival missions to their own corner of the map? Because they want to actually interact with the game, play the content. So they head off to explore while not wanting to deal with having to compete for the enemies. 

[Jarriaga]

12 minutes ago, Lakais said:

Issue of perception. You assume that other devs or studios do not receive threats from special individuals. They are usually not made publicly known. Hell, animation and comic studios receive threats for their work. Nothing new there. 

I'm assuming nothing. I'm pointing that at least publicly, the WF community has the very dubious honor of crossing that line for what amounts to a thought crime. 

And your argument goes both ways. That's the public episode we got. We don't know how many private threats Pablo got, or Scott gets.

12 minutes ago, Lakais said:

Not saying that behavior is tolerable or expected. It's abhorrent, at best said as a very bad joke or as an emotional outburst and at worst, the words of a troubled individual. 

Sadly, the number of individuals and likes on those posts were higher than the number of fingers in both of my hands. Even as a vocal minority, they sure made an organized spectacle for everyone to see.

Over a thought crime.

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

We don't know how many private threats Pablo got, or Scott gets.

I don't believe there is a point in discussing a deranged, statistically insignificant, minority. It's like saying the people of a certain town must be worse than other people, because there was a school shooting when most other towns don't have such occurences.

Also, all public figures should expect to receive threats. Be it jealousy, attempts at coercion, or out of boredom, there will always be a handful of people acting despicable. If you cannot stomach that much, you'd do best to get off the internet asap.

[ZenHare]

11 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

DE slaps too many multipliers in the game without much thought and they aren't conveyed well. The fact that the original Condition Overload was exponential with itself and its own multiplier wouldn't have made it into a mainline update in any other game.

What DE should have done from the start was limit all damage mods into 3 categories of multipliers and never creating more.

Base Damage, Multi-shot/Stance Multipliers and Elemental Damage.

Viral procs and Critical Damage should just add Base Damage so that Status, Critical and Hybrid weapons are in the same ball park of damage.

IPS should have the highest damage modifiers with +75% and no negative modifiers, while combined elementals should have the weakest with +25% with negative multipliers against all but what they are supposed to be strong against.

Stacking more elemental damage and getting a higher damage multiplier on top shouldn't be a thing.

Enemy armor should have never scaled as all it does is make things like Bleed ever more valuable as armor scales higher.

 

Agreed almost 100%. And they need to do the same for abilities. Content for casual pick up players is never going to challenge a group of players that play as a team. I am not against such a team having an advantage, it just doesn't need to be a few orders of magnitude greater.

CO being too much is probably a result of DE being too naive. "Players will never be able to stack 16 statuses on mobs." I think no other mod in the game comes close to its 1920%  damage increase IIRC. Even at only 1000%, it is still a huge bonus. Trying to make CO mods for other weapons is just adding more bad to badness.

I think if they were to tell people, "Hey, we are going to work on mob armor, health and shield and player weapon scaling for level 300+, so that CO isn't a requirement," then it might not have been as negatively received. It came across as, "We are going to nerf melee, so suck it."

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

I don't believe there is a point in discussing a deranged, statistically insignificant, minority. It's like saying the people of a certain town must be worse than other people, because there was a school shooting when most other towns don't have such occurences.

Also, all public figures should expect to receive threats. Be it jealousy, attempts at coercion, or out of boredom, there will always be a handful of people acting despicable. If you cannot stomach that much, you'd do best to get off the internet asap.

I´m Dominican. We are thick-skinned and don't get offended easily.

My observation about private threads was in response to the user downplaying what happened here in December 2019 by highlighting other communities are worse but they just do it in private as if he somehow knew if that didn't also happen privately here.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Out of all the nerfs the one that got to me was Ash. Their were so many way they could have improved him and his 4th ability but they sacrificed speed for damage which is a bad trade, it might me good at killing high-level enemies but it can`t kill enemies as low as lvl 6. The point is he needs a revisit and stats and ppl`s actions proves that.

[Sojufueled]

On 2021-06-22 at 9:57 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Well, in D3 you have no build variety to begin with. Equip one of those sets giving you +10000% damage for a certain skill and play how Blizzard tells you to or go home. It's one of the reasons I don't like it very much.

Yeah, D3 Peaked at the release of Reaper of Souls.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Lakais said:

I will say that Warframe, while PvE, is still competitive. There is still a sort of round-a-bout PvP aspect to normal gameplay. Especially in groups. We don't compete in who is best at killing each other, we compete for the enemies to kill. That is what drives this practically self-destroying drive for the biggest number. It's to be the one who gets to interact with the game. It has also driven the speeding need. Those two things have borne out of the "top tier" player base and have trickled down to become the norm. 
Why do some people run off in survival missions to their own corner of the map? Because they want to actually interact with the game, play the content. So they head off to explore while not wanting to deal with having to compete for the enemies. 

People seriously think like that? I mean yeah, heading off to their own place in survival I can understand, but do some people seriously do it out of some competative persepctive? I do it in order to not get bored out of my mind since it gives me something to do. In order for me to think competatively there would need to be some massive orange dangly carrot as a reward at the end.

I'm more inclined to think that the need to chase kills has invoked the widespread afk mentality and not thoughts and behavior of the competative nature.

[Krankbert]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb ZenHare:

CO being too much is probably a result of DE being too naive. "Players will never be able to stack 16 statuses on mobs." I think no other mod in the game comes close to its 1920%  damage increase IIRC. Even at only 1000%, it is still a huge bonus. Trying to make CO mods for other weapons is just adding more bad to badness.

I think if they were to tell people, "Hey, we are going to work on mob armor, health and shield and player weapon scaling for level 300+, so that CO isn't a requirement," then it might not have been as negatively received. It came across as, "We are going to nerf melee, so suck it."

Of course it would have gone over better with the never-nerf-crowd, because it wouldn't be a nerf. That's not saying what you do differently, it's just doing a completely different thing. A thing that wouldn't solve the problem of CO outperforming everything else because CO would still outperform everything else.

"Hey, we have the problem that this mod is too strong relative to other things in the game. Let's keep its relative strength exactly the same and instead make all enemies easier."

You're not even pretending to present a solution, you're just blatantly angling to keep your toy while also having the game made easier.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 22.6.2021 um 14:57 schrieb Traumtulpe:

Well, in D3 you have no build variety to begin with. Equip one of those sets giving you +10000% damage for a certain skill and play how Blizzard tells you to or go home. It's one of the reasons I don't like it very much.

it is not worth talking about. that is the low point of all low points and also lousy devs who are constantly drunk under the table.
i don't want to take the subject any further. because how can it be that a large company thinks the players are total idiots ???

[ZenHare]

5 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Of course it would have gone over better with the never-nerf-crowd, because it wouldn't be a nerf. That's not saying what you do differenty, it's just doing a completely different thing. A thing that wouldn't solve the problem of CO outperforming everything else because CO would still outperform everything else. You're not even pretending to present a solution, you're just blatantly angling to keep your toy while also having the game made easier.

There is a middle ground somewhere between 165% from PPP and 1080% to 1920% from CO. CO doesn't need to be that high. At say 360% (3 stacks which are trivial to get) it would be huge improvement and would not require us to break guns to bring them up to melee levels.

Now

MOBs 100k health/Melee 100k dps/Ranged 10k dps

Proposed

MOBs 50k health/Melee 30k/Ranged 20k dps

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

14 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I don't believe there is a point in discussing a deranged, statistically insignificant, minority. It's like saying the people of a certain town must be worse than other people, because there was a school shooting when most other towns don't have such occurences.

Also, all public figures should expect to receive threats. Be it jealousy, attempts at coercion, or out of boredom, there will always be a handful of people acting despicable. If you cannot stomach that much, you'd do best to get off the internet asap.

Couple things...

Pablo, Steve, and Scott aren't public figures— They are game developers who's names they have allowed you to know.
There's a reason why so many content creators in other countries have moved back to pseudonyms and masks to protect their identities.

Moreover, to say that this behavior should be, to some degree, expected and "isn't worthy of discussion" undercuts your whole OP as it's another symptom of the problem in question.

Sure, the folks doing it are, at best, bullies and, at worst, Kooks but that doesn't mean it should be overlooked.

On 2021-06-22 at 5:28 AM, Traumtulpe said:

Nobody likes getting nerfed, but Warframe players have the image of being particularly allergic to it. After every nerf you have people proclaiming that this was the final straw, that they are done with Warframe, and that the game is going to die. In other games, people are diappointed, sure, but they don't consider quitting the game. Even if they spent money on things getting nerfed.

So what is the difference, are Warframe players simply entitled and immature? Well, that would be an entitled, immature, and obviously silly opinion to hold. The people playing Warframe are the same people that play other games. Given that, the cause can only lie with Warframe itself.

 

Taking your most recent comment into account and looking back at your OP can lead one to think you may feel that it's DE's fault people react that way.

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Pablo, Steve, and Scott aren't public figures

Right, they only livestream and share their baby pictures. Totally not public at all.

Let me make it more clear; If you aren't a nobody, someone is going to hate you. Do you know how many people play Warframe? Supposedly 3% of all people are psychopaths or something like that, that's a big number.

[Krankbert]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb ZenHare:

There is a middle ground somewhere between 165% from PPP and 1080% to 1920% from CO. CO doesn't need to be that high. At say 360% (3 stacks which are trivial to get) it would be huge improvement and would not require us to break guns to bring them up to melee levels.

CO isn't used because it's necessary. It's used because it's better. If you halve the life of all mobs and don't touch CO it will still be better. Again: You're not trying to solve the balancing problem between guns and melee, you're just trying to make the game easier.

Just look at Diablo 3 - the perfect example. People here complain that Diablo 3 doesn't have build diversity. That's not because it only has a few builds. That's solely because a few builds vastly outperform all others, so players perceive all others as "not viable". Not because they don't work, but solely because other builds work better.

[ZenHare]

10 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

CO isn't used because it's necessary. It's used because it's better. If you halve the life of all mobs it will still be better. Again: You're not trying to solve the balancing problem between guns and melee, you're just trying to make the game easier.

You do realize at certain point you need to mag dump mobs with primaries? You have played to those levels, right? Melee builds with CO (and priming) let you continue way past that. So yes, CO at those levels is necessary. With planned teams, you can push past even further than even CO and priming can go when you have certain warframes with their own 10x damage modifiers. When you make something better, you make the game easier. Take a weapon, add mods to it. Is it better? Yes. is the game easier? Yes. Replace those mods with primed mods. Is the weapon better? Yes. Is the game easier? Yes.