Why people don't like nerfs in Warframe in particular.

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb ZenHare:

You do realize at certain point you need to mag dump mobs with primaries? You have played to those levels, right? Melee builds with CO (and priming) let you continue way past that.

How exactly would leaving CO exactly the same relative to guns change that? You're acting as if that point is some specific fixed obstacle you have to overcome to continue to progress in the game instead of being completely arbitrary.

[ZenHare]

1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

How exactly would leaving CO exactly the same relative to guns change that?

How are these the same? Can you do simple math?

Now

MOBs 100k health/Melee 100k dps/Ranged 10k dps

Proposed

MOBs 50k health/Melee 30k/Ranged 20k dps

 

[Krankbert]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb ZenHare:

How are these the same? Can you do simple math?

Mobs 100k health/Meee 30k dps/Ranged 20k dps

vs

Mobs 50k health/Melee 30k/Ranged 20k dps

How are these not the same from a balancing standpoint. Relative power of melee vs ranged is unchanged. The only difference in balancing in the numbers you give comes from nerfing melee, which isn't your proposal. Your proposal is to make enemies weaker, and that changes nothing. All your idea of making enemies weaker added is make the game easier overall.

[ZenHare]

2 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Mobs 100k health/Meee 30k dps/Ranged 20k dps

vs

Mobs 50k health/Melee 30k/Ranged 20k dps

How are these not the same from a balancing standpoint. Relative power of melee vs ranged is unchanged. All your idea of making enemies weaker does is make the game easier overall.

Going from doing 100k dps against mobs with 100k health to doing 30k dps against mobs with 50k health is already a nerf. That is simple high school math that you are having problems with. Those ratios are not the same. You are pushing that nerf even higher and there is no reason for that. There are some missions like solo SP defense where melee can struggle with killing spaced out spawns before a defense target gets destroyed. Decreasing melee dps too much makes those missions impossible for any frame that doesn't have CC with a huge range.

[Krankbert]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb ZenHare:

Going from doing 100k dps against mobs with 100k health to doing 30k dps against mobs with 50k health is already a nerf. That is simple high school math that you are having problems with. Those ratios are not the same.

I think I've said variations of "melee relative to guns" enough times that I don't need to dignify that nonsense with a response. I think I've been clear enough on what I was refering to as being "the same".

vor 7 Minuten schrieb ZenHare:

There are some missions like solo SP defense where melee can struggle with killing spaced out spawns before a defense target gets destroyed. Decreasing melee dps too much makes those missions impossible for any frame that doesn't have CC with a huge range.

I feel like you should know that the other people on this forum that bring up this argument are talking about mob levels in the multiple hundreds.

As for your argument that nerfing melee and not making the game easier would mean that you could no longer solo any mission with any weapon on any frame: So what?

[minininja77]

On 2021-06-22 at 5:55 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Just the minor nerfs Outriders introduced early on made the cheese community go total nuts and claim the game was "unplayable"

You clearly did not play the game, it was not the nerfs directly that made the game unplayable fixing Emergency stance that was bugged just shined a huge spotlight on the fact that their entire damage reduction system was BROKEN it took them weeks to fix it during which time the game was nearly unplayable. People screamed as it seem that PCF were more focused on nerfs in a "not a games as a service" than fixing what was broken (people getting booted constantly in multiplayer, not being able to log on, hell they were "nerfing" while the inventory/character wiped bug was on going. That is what cause people to lose their S#&$ on the devs.

I have zero issues with nerfs as long as the Devs spend the time to gather the data that shows the weapons/skills are over performing in some area or just flat out not working as intended, the issue people take with DE nerfs is most of them are simply based on "players are using this item to much"

[ZenHare]

21 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

I think I've said variations of "melee relative to guns" enough times that I don't need to dignify that nonsense with a response. I think I've been clear enough on what I was refering to as being "the same".

And you are still wrong on that too. In the first example, guns do about 10% of the damage melee weapons do to doing 66% in the second example. 100k and 10k versus 30k and 20k. I am curious, let me ask you another math question: if you halved all the enemy health in the game and halved all the damage done in the game, would the game get: easier, harder or stay the same?

 

21 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

I feel like you should know that the other people on this forum that bring up this argument are talking about mob levels in the multiple hundreds.

As for your argument that nerfing melee and not making the game easier would mean that you could no longer solo any mission with any weapon on any frame: So what?

There is more to SP (and Warframe as a whole) than high level survival farms. You are making changes that everything and you need to think about that too.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, minininja77 said:

You clearly did not play the game, it was not the nerfs directly that made the game unplayable fixing Emergency stance that was bugged just shined a huge spotlight on the fact that their entire damage reduction system was BROKEN it took them weeks to fix it during which time the game was nearly unplayable. People screamed as it seem that PCF were more focused on nerfs in a "not a games as a service" than fixing what was broken (people getting booted constantly in multiplayer, not being able to log on, hell they were "nerfing" while the inventory/character wiped bug was on going. That is what cause people to lose their S#&$ on the devs.

I have zero issues with nerfs as long as the Devs spend the time to gather the data that shows the weapons/skills are over performing in some area or just flat out not working as intended, the issue people take with DE nerfs is most of them are simply based on "players are using this item to much"

I played it alot (actually played it daily since demo up until last week), never relied on ES and cleared CT15 just the same with bullet builds pre- and post- nerf on full glasscannon Trick and Tech, played a bottom tree facetank melee Deva during the so called "broken mitigation" period aswell with zero defense mods (actually pushed and farmed CT15 in epics with him, cos apparently Devas are so weak) and a mid tree acari overheat pyro during that same period aswell. The nerfs there really had no impact on anything yet people claimed it turned the game unplayable. Very odd that me and my friend had zero issues.

[Krankbert]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb minininja77:

You clearly did not play the game, it was not the nerfs directly that made the game unplayable fixing Emergency stance that was bugged just shined a huge spotlight on the fact that their entire damage reduction system was BROKEN it took them weeks to fix it during which time the game was nearly unplayable. People screamed as it seem that PCF were more focused on nerfs in a "not a games as a service" than fixing what was broken (people getting booted constantly in multiplayer, not being able to log on, hell they were "nerfing" while the inventory/character wiped bug was on going. That is what cause people to lose their S#&$ on the devs.

What I'm getting from this is that Outriders players were just complaining about nerfs because they were upset about a lot of other things and couldn't put their feelings into words. So essentially big toddlers throwing a tantrum. 

Personally, I think it's pretty embarassing for the gaming fanbase as a whole that a company's game designers and balancing team have to sit around and twiddle their thumbs whenever there's a problem with the netcode and login system just to placate the big babies who make up their customer base.

  

vor 3 Minuten schrieb minininja77:

I have zero issues with nerfs as long as the Devs spend the time to gather the data that shows the weapons/skills are over performing in some area or just flat out not working as intended, the issue people take with DE nerfs is most of them are simply based on "players are using this item to much"

I'm sure you don't. When a dev does that, you certainly won't simply come up with an excuse why akshually this case is totally different and the nerf is totally not for overperforming.

vor 3 Minuten schrieb minininja77:

the issue people take with DE nerfs is most of them are simply based on "players are using this item to much"

Right.

[minininja77]

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I played it alot (actually played it daily since demo up until last week), never relied on ES and cleared CT15 just the same with bullet builds pre- and post- nerf on full glasscannon Trick and Tech, played a bottom tree facetank melee Deva during the so called "broken mitigation" period aswell with zero defense mods (actually pushed and farmed CT15 in epics with him, cos apparently Devas are so weak) and a mid tree acari overheat pyro during that same period aswell. The nerfs there really had no impact on anything yet people claimed it turned the game unplayable. Very odd that me and my friend had zero issues.

I never relied on ES either as I knew it was a bug and would be fixed and better to not rely on something that is going away. I was able to clear all the way to CT15 solo and the eye of the storm in a grp on a Tech shaman build even during the broken mitigation, but my pyro who I could clear the same content on could no longer clear anything past CT 10 solo and anything past CT 12 in a grp was getting dribbled like a basketball, now that they have patched it all everything is back to where it was.

[Krankbert]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb ZenHare:

And you are still wrong on that too. In the first example, guns do about 10% of the damage melee weapons do to doing 66% in the second example. 100k and 10k versus 30k and 20k. I am curious, let me ask you another math question: if you halved all the enemy health in the game and halved all the damage done in the game, would the game get: easier, harder or stay the same?

I have no idea where you're going with this. My point is that "halving enemy life and nerfing melee vs not halving enemy life and nerfing melee" will do nothing balancing-wise. I have no idea why you keep comparing "nerfing melee and halving enemy life vs not nerfing melee and not halving enemy life". That's not the same thing. All your "counterargument" proves is that you don't even know what my opinion is.

[(PSN)grunge788]

My friends hate nerfs because they spend 100s of dollors on plat thin spend said plat on riven mod then weapon get nerf.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

About the opening post about "why people don't like nerf"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion

It's a typical behavior that people don't like loss.

Also in PvE games the track record of devs "balancing" is usually rather poor compared to competitive PvP, and DE is no exception.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)grunge788 said:

My friends hate nerfs because they spend 100s of dollors on plat thin spend said plat on riven mod then weapon get nerf.

Your friends knew this was possible beforehand. It's their fault.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb MonsterOfMyOwn:

About the opening post about "why people don't like nerf"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion

It's a typical behavior that people don't like loss.

Also in PvE games the track record of devs "balancing" is usually rather poor compared to competitive PvP, and DE is no exception.

company has lost touch with reality. nothing new.

[(PSN)grunge788]

Never said it wasnt there fault spending plat on rivens. Im just saying why all my friends hate nerfs

[ZenHare]

4 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

I have no idea where you're going with this. My point is that "halving enemy life and nerfing melee vs not halving enemy life and nerfing melee" will do nothing balancing-wise. I have no idea why you keep comparing "nerfing melee and halving enemy life vs not nerfing melee and not halving enemy life". That's not the same thing. All your "counterargument" proves is that you don't even know what my opinion is.

To be honest, I don't think you have any idea where you are going either.

We have two goals. One, reduce the disparity between melee and ranged weapons. Two, make ranged weapons capable of killing high level content. If you nerf melee down to the level of ranged weapons, then you accomplish the first goal, but fail to accomplish the second. That could work if you bring enemy health down as well. DE's approach is to nerf melee and then add new CO style mods to ranged weapons. However, this going to fail because of the on kill requirements which are going to be flaky at best. And as the rounds increase and the enemies' levels increase, you are more and more likely to loose the buff and less and less likely to get it back. End result: Everyone is going to stick with melee and the few meta ranged weapons like the Kuva Nukor which is going to be even more obscene with galvanized mods.

[Monolake]

First of all it's a perception issue that things are 'nerfed' when in fact everything been getting buffed to the absurd level where nothing can stand in our way at the same time as mobs scaling got pretty much removed. But people only notice one bad thing and overlook all the massive buffs to player power.

As for the audience specific to Warframe - yes it's different from most other games, DE had cultivated an audience of 'I play easy mode with all cheats enabled, where is my 'win' button' players and afk farmers.  DE caters to this particular group and doesn't nerf what absolutely needs to be nerfed for game's health. 

As for player investment - somehow there was no riot when DE basically scammed people out of thousands of plat by making a bunch of rivens absolutely worthless. But nerfing some small thing like weapon that takes very little time to acquire and maybe 30 min to forma - bunch of the easy mode players throw a tantrum. Compare it to other games like Destiny which has far far worse grind for weapons and then comes out with an update that effectively deletes those weapons for a example or card games where you pay money for packs and then it all gets nerfed - or worse, outright removed from play.

So Warframe is not even remotely bad with nerfs, its just the specific audience and perception issue.

[Krankbert]

vor einer Stunde schrieb ZenHare:

To be honest, I don't think you have any idea where you are going either.

We have two goals. One, reduce the disparity between melee and ranged weapons. Two, make ranged weapons capable of killing high level content. If you nerf melee down to the level of ranged weapons, then you accomplish the first goal, but fail to accomplish the second. That could work if you bring enemy health down as well. DE's approach is to nerf melee and then add new CO style mods to ranged weapons. However, this going to fail because of the on kill requirements which are going to be flaky at best. And as the rounds increase and the enemies' levels increase, you are more and more likely to loose the buff and less and less likely to get it back. End result: Everyone is going to stick with melee and the few meta ranged weapons like the Kuva Nukor which is going to be even more obscene with galvanized mods.

All your idea does is move the point at which ranged weapons are no longer viable a bit further out, and since - as I have already said - that point is already beyond any goal the game sets for the players, so that point is completely arbitrary. If there is no parity between ranged weapons and melee, then that point will exist and moving it around a bit won't solve anything.
The problem isn't that there is a level at which guns have trouble killing enemies. Enemies scale effectively endlessly, so that point will always exist. The problem is that there is a level (encountered at normal gameplay) at which guns have trouble killing enemies and melee weapons don't, i.e. there is actually not parity between melee and ranged weapons. Your entire argument that the melee nerf will fail to achieve the second goal thus hinges on the assumption that the melee nerf won't achieve the first goal.

All your argument shows is that in fact there are no two goals. There is one goal, game balance, and it solves every problem you mention.

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Right, they only livestream and share their baby pictures. Totally not public at all.

That's correct... They are no more public than they would be if they had their names printed in the phone book.

The fact that they live openly and share with their community shouldn't be cause to see them be harrassed and it certainly shouldn't be reason to dismiss the occurrences

2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Let me make it more clear; If you aren't a nobody, someone is going to hate you. Do you know how many people play Warframe? Supposedly 3% of all people are psychopaths or something like that, that's a big number.

Let me make it more clear too then....

That's not cause to dismiss the occurrences as a symptom—And it's foolish to think that similar instances hasn't had sway in how the company acts or responds to feedback.

If we know that they have had impact that has been acted upon in the past (and we do...) then dismissing these bullying occurences would be "an entitled, immature, and silly opinion to hold.".

Just sayin'...

I know you want to make out like it's all DE's fault but I've actually been here long enough to know that simply isn't the case... That doesn't mean they are innocent by any stretch of the imagination but the community (in all it's different channels) is just as to blame for a lot of the stuff getting complained about.

 

[MistressMoonpaw]

On 2021-06-22 at 2:28 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Nobody likes getting nerfed, but Warframe players have the image of being particularly allergic to it. After every nerf you have people proclaiming that this was the final straw, that they are done with Warframe, and that the game is going to die. In other games, people are diappointed, sure, but they don't consider quitting the game. Even if they spent money on things getting nerfed.

So what is the difference, are Warframe players simply entitled and immature? Well, that would be an entitled, immature, and obviously silly opinion to hold. The people playing Warframe are the same people that play other games. Given that, the cause can only lie with Warframe itself.

What then does Warframe do differently to other games, in regards to nerfs or otherwise? I'd like you to consider 2 possible reasons:

1. In other games, you might have noticed relatively frequent, small changes. 5% less this, 5% less that, and maybe a small buff somewhere else to compensate. This gives players the feeling that the developers know what they are doing, the balance was not quite right, but close, and the things getting nerfed may be dropped in favour of something else, but they remain functional. In Warframe however, nerfs are big. 50% less this, 70% less that, signature ability removed. The player reaction is predictable: "So you have no idea what the hell you are doing, and I'm never going to touch that thing again."
2. Making (a lot of) players not use the affected items anymore is the sole point of any nerf in Warframe. But Warframe is all grind, there's nothing else to the game. People wasted days, weeks, sometimes months, to obtain and optimize the item DE just (on purpose) made them not use anymore. Maybe you've heard the phrase "DE isn't respecting the players time". Well, it's true, isn't it?

In summary, things take a lot of effort and time to obtain, they get nerfed by popularity, the severity of nerfs is not aimed at balance, but at making players stop using the item, and balance in general seems like guesswork at best. Obviously this is dissatisfactory for the players affected.

The game is already dying. Declining player numbers, being bought out by tencent. The game getting more and more grindy. Most people just moved on or are about to move on.

[ZenHare]

1 hour ago, Krankbert said:

The problem isn't that there is a level at which guns have trouble killing enemies. Enemies scale effectively endlessly, so that point will always exist. The problem is that there is a level (encountered at normal gameplay) at which guns have trouble killing enemies and melee weapons don't, i.e. there is actually not parity between melee and ranged weapons. Your entire argument that the melee nerf will fail to achieve the second goal thus hinges on the assumption that the melee nerf won't achieve the first goal.

 

No, it is not endless. Enemies are capped at level 9999. Takes a few hours to get there through. People have gone to cap with a Kuva Ogris.

The goals are independent. You can achieve one and fail to achieve the other.

Goals

One, reduce the disparity between melee and ranged weapons.

Two, make ranged weapons capable of killing high level content.

Scenario 1 Nerf melee down to the current level of ranged. One - Pass. Two - Fail.

Scenario 2 Buff all weapon damage so that ranged can kill high level content. Melee still does more damage than ranged but everything dies so who cares.  One - Fail. Two - Pass.

Scenario 3 Bring the two weapon types into parity.* One - Pass. Two - Pass.

Scenario 4 Don't do anything or partially nerf melee and partially buff ranged. One - Fail. Two - Fail.

*Scenario 3 is the one we are aiming at. We can get the weapon types close but there is zero chance they can balance the two. Zero. They are just too different. Melee does not require ammo, reloading, aiming, etc. Melee is AOE by default. Melee have stances. Melee has combos. Melee is trivial to mod. The only limit to melee is its short range which is alleviated by parkour and small rooms. I don't agree with DE's position of adding more CO mods to the game especially poor versions of them. CO that requires no condition is vastly superior to a CO that triggers on a kill. So their plan on achieving scenario 3 is going to slip fast into scenario 4. 

[Krankbert]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb ZenHare:

No, it is not endless. Enemies are capped at level 9999.

I said "effectively endless".

vor 15 Minuten schrieb ZenHare:

The goals are independent. You can achieve one and fail to achieve the other.

Sure.

vor 15 Minuten schrieb ZenHare:

Scenario 1 Nerf melee down to the current level of ranged. One - Pass. Two - Fail.

False. Guns are currently capable of killing high level content on any level the game places you in. Melee are capable of doing it faster and of killing higher level of content, and that is literally the only reason why you think that guns are weak instead of thinking that enemies at that level have simply scaled beyond the players' ability to kill them or that that's simply the speed Steel Path enemies are supposed to be killed at. You're examining this situation through the lens that the current power of melee weapons is what you're supposed to be performing at, when the developers, in chosing to nerf them, have already told you that this is not so.

vor 15 Minuten schrieb ZenHare:

Scenario 2 Buff all weapon damage so that ranged can kill high level content. Melee still does more damage than ranged but everything dies so who cares.  One - Fail. Two - Pass.

I love you're apparently mentally incapable of conceiving of a scenario where guns and melee are equal. Every single hypothetical you propose has melee stronger than guns.

vor 15 Minuten schrieb ZenHare:

Scenario 3 Bring the two weapon types into parity.* One - Pass. Two - Pass.

Okay.

vor 15 Minuten schrieb ZenHare:

Scenario 4 Don't do anything or partially nerf melee and partially buff ranged. One - Fail. Two - Fail. 

False. See scenario 1.

vor 15 Minuten schrieb ZenHare:

*Scenario 3 is the one we are aiming at. We can get the weapon types close but there is zero chance they can balance the two. Zero. They are just too different. Melee does not require ammo, reloading, aiming, etc. Melee is AOE by default. Melee have stances. Melee has combos. Melee is trivial to mod. The only limit to melee is its short range which is alleviated by parkour and small rooms. I don't agree with DE's position of adding more CO mods to the game especially poor versions of them. CO that requires no condition is vastly superior to a CO that triggers on a kill. So their plan on achieving scenario 3 is going to slip fast into scenario 4. 

Okay. Now can you explain to me why in this entire pretty long post there is no longer a single mention of your idea of halving all mob life and how it will solve anything? All I see is some pointlessly long elaboration that there could technically be a point where all weapons are too weak to kill anything and therefore "guns have to be able to kill things" is totally an explicit goal we have to consider and not something utterly banal that everyone else considers to be a given. Does anything you just wrote have even a slight superficial connection to the thing I actually disagreed with you on?

[vanaukas]

After the spam of threads that say literally "nerf bad buff good", anyone has the audacity to dismiss the fact that some people is just entilted and childish and stop reading the moment they saw the forbidden word... Nerf?

[Traumtulpe]

31 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

After the spam of threads that say literally "nerf bad buff good", anyone has the audacity to dismiss the fact that some people is just entilted and childish and stop reading the moment they saw the forbidden word... Nerf?

You are ignoring the context. When you have 99 broken things and 1 good thing, and someone tells you they are going to break the 1 good thing because for some inexplicable reason all the players use it, of course people will get upset.