Jump to content

Why people don't like nerfs in Warframe in particular.


Recommended Posts

55 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

You are ignoring the context. When you have 99 broken things and 1 good thing, and someone tells you they are going to break the 1 good thing because for some inexplicable reason all the players use it, of course people will get upset.

Oh no, 3 mods are being changed and nukor can't change 2 mroe enemeis as right now. OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

Oh no, 3 mods are being changed and nukor can't change 2 mroe enemeis as right now. OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

That post is looking mightily childish to my eyes. But you couldn't possibly be a hypocrite, right?

2 hours ago, vanaukas said:

anyone has the audacity to dismiss the fact that some people is just entilted and childish

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

That post is looking mightily childish to my eyes. But you couldn't possibly be a hypocrite, right?

Half joking. Just doing a quick TL;DR over the flod of threads and comments on the dev workshop that says "melee is dead" and stuff like that. I think there is a huge difference between joking and threads like this:

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

Also in PvE games the track record of devs "balancing" is usually rather poor compared to competitive PvP, and DE is no exception.

To be absolutely, 100% fair, here, DE's track record balancing PvP is apparently far, far worse, judging by the reported state of conclave. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Paradoxity said:

To be absolutely, 100% fair, here, DE's track record balancing PvP is apparently far, far worse, judging by the reported state of conclave. 

I mean it's kind of hard to balance a garbage heap.

And I say that as somebody who (conceptually) likes Lunaro.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I mean it's kind of hard to balance a garbage heap.

And I say that as somebody who (conceptually) likes Lunaro.

Oh, yeah, no doubt. Just saying that so far as PvE balance vs. PvP balance goes, DE is... remarkably poor at both. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-06-22 at 10:28 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Nobody likes getting nerfed, but Warframe players have the image of being particularly allergic to it. After every nerf you have people proclaiming that this was the final straw, that they are done with Warframe, and that the game is going to die. In other games, people are diappointed, sure, but they don't consider quitting the game. Even if they spent money on things getting nerfed.

So what is the difference, are Warframe players simply entitled and immature? Well, that would be an entitled, immature, and obviously silly opinion to hold. The people playing Warframe are the same people that play other games. Given that, the cause can only lie with Warframe itself.

What then does Warframe do differently to other games, in regards to nerfs or otherwise? I'd like you to consider 2 possible reasons:

  1. In other games, you might have noticed relatively frequent, small changes. 5% less this, 5% less that, and maybe a small buff somewhere else to compensate. This gives players the feeling that the developers know what they are doing, the balance was not quite right, but close, and the things getting nerfed may be dropped in favour of something else, but they remain functional. In Warframe however, nerfs are big. 50% less this, 70% less that, signature ability removed. The player reaction is predictable: "So you have no idea what the hell you are doing, and I'm never going to touch that thing again."
  2. Making (a lot of) players not use the affected items anymore is the sole point of any nerf in Warframe. But Warframe is all grind, there's nothing else to the game. People wasted days, weeks, sometimes months, to obtain and optimize the item DE just (on purpose) made them not use anymore. Maybe you've heard the phrase "DE isn't respecting the players time". Well, it's true, isn't it?

In summary, things take a lot of effort and time to obtain, they get nerfed by popularity, the severity of nerfs is not aimed at balance, but at making players stop using the item, and balance in general seems like guesswork at best. Obviously this is dissatisfactory for the players affected.

Sometimes they nerf the wrong things, and nerf them hard. It hasn't even been released yet but DE have already nerfed the Merciless' arcane duration by 33%. Another point to mention is that there is basically no compensation for players who invested hours into the nerfed equipment. Most of the time you need tons of Forma, Kuva, Rivens, Catalysts/Reactors and time to get a weapon into a game breaking state. Yes they've now started to compensate albeit very minor. And the last thing to mention is that there are 100s of more broken things in the game, yet they cherry-pick a few instead of addressing the whole issue.

Edited by (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-06-22 at 9:57 AM, ZeroX4 said:

I really cant say you are wrong but consider 1 more fact
I started playing warframe to help my cousin translate what ppl who want to trade with him say
I stayed because i fell in love with hikou and then i learned that there is hikou prime

After i get hikou prime that was like my dream come true but learning that hikou is not so strong and even riven can help only a bit much of content just dont exist for me in warframe

I prefer to go with hikou to regular mission to enjoy killing enemies and rather than go to SP and either struggle to kill heavier units or go with idk kuva bramma

And for many players nerfs to whole weapon type means destroying their gameplay style even better think of it as u worked so hard to get best EQ to do content without effort and now someone is ruining it for you

Its not so simple as you presented and best example here is self damage on chroma it was never a problem when it existed and now well for many ppl it was end of eidolon hunting as chroma even so its easy to stack vex armor and fury

So keep in mind what can be just a little nerf for you can be destruction of whole enjoyment for others

This for me. Glaives nerf/CO Nerfs... To me incoming nerfs will reduce substantially the number of alternative non-meta builds I use on multiple non-optimized combinations frames/weapons/companions.

To be honest I also have optimized combinations but only rely on them on specific occasions as I simply do not like them.

The fact that equipping a certain weapon or "ab"using a synergy that could make up for all the other non-meta combinations in that layout allowed me to play as I enjoyed and if necessity so demanded I could switch to that first choice, dealt with the situation and switched back to how I wanted to play. But I can say this only for me the incoming nerfs will drastically reduce the combinations of frames, primary weapons and companions I enjoy to use to get the job done in SP as I will now have to pursue efficiency on those too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Aldain said:
9 hours ago, Paradoxity said:

To be absolutely, 100% fair, here, DE's track record balancing PvP is apparently far, far worse, judging by the reported state of conclave. 

I mean it's kind of hard to balance a garbage heap.

And I say that as somebody who (conceptually) likes Lunaro.

That comment sounds pretty clueless.

Balance in PvP was decent a few years ago. They basically just stopped caring and only change or fix a thing once every few months. Meanwhile PvE changes bleed into it and mess it up more, because they could never be bothered to better separate the modes, either.

 

The conclusion is right, though. Nowadays this dev team (specifically: game design) is not one who has a good grip on balance. IMHO, they're very lucky their art, sound and engine teams are doing a pretty great job.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

vor einer Stunde schrieb Kontrollo:

The conclusion is right, though. Nowadays this dev team (specifically: game design) is not one who has a good grip on balance. IMHO, they're very lucky their art, sound and engine teams are doing a pretty great job.

Yes. everything except balance is good.
and that devs want to destroy working things is an epic fail. instead of finally producing something playable, there is always more garbage for mastery points.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-06-24 at 4:34 PM, SneakyErvin said:

People seriously think like that? I mean yeah, heading off to their own place in survival I can understand, but do some people seriously do it out of some competative persepctive? I do it in order to not get bored out of my mind since it gives me something to do. In order for me to think competatively there would need to be some massive orange dangly carrot as a reward at the end.

I'm more inclined to think that the need to chase kills has invoked the widespread afk mentality and not thoughts and behavior of the competative nature.

You're proving my point. It's not overtly competitive. People don't consciously set out to have the biggest number or be the fastest, but they do so out of necessity to not be bored out of their mind and actually be able to play the game. Simply the desire to actually play the game and have enemies to kill has resulted in this weird arms race of one-upping each other because if you drag behind even by the tiniest percent, you will be left without enemies and thus without anything to interact with.

Of course there are exceptions and other details. There are also people who are out for maximum efficiency. If that is borne out of some self-rationalization for the one-upping or an actual mentality is entirely individual. And there are people out there who are all about having the biggest numbers and the fastest mission times. All those things are valid and I don't think badly of people who go for that, it's their entertainment. My problem lies in all that seeping into the core game and general meta and my opinion is that ultimately that kind of mentality is detrimental to player retention and enjoyment.
First thing some players get is a youtuber min-max meta build and from there on, everything is downhill because anything else they might want to try will be weaker or less efficient and in a public match, that is more likely to lead to the player being bored because there is nothing to do but go to extraction or mop up the crumbs. 

Of course there are those who just play solo or with friends. Arguably a majority. And as far as they are concerned, everything is working as intended. As such we don't get their opinions because they are playing the game and not browsing the forums to air their grievances. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Lakais said:

You're proving my point. It's not overtly competitive. People don't consciously set out to have the biggest number or be the fastest, but they do so out of necessity to not be bored out of their mind and actually be able to play the game. Simply the desire to actually play the game and have enemies to kill has resulted in this weird arms race of one-upping each other because if you drag behind even by the tiniest percent, you will be left without enemies and thus without anything to interact with.

Of course there are exceptions and other details. There are also people who are out for maximum efficiency. If that is borne out of some self-rationalization for the one-upping or an actual mentality is entirely individual. And there are people out there who are all about having the biggest numbers and the fastest mission times. All those things are valid and I don't think badly of people who go for that, it's their entertainment. My problem lies in all that seeping into the core game and general meta and my opinion is that ultimately that kind of mentality is detrimental to player retention and enjoyment.
First thing some players get is a youtuber min-max meta build and from there on, everything is downhill because anything else they might want to try will be weaker or less efficient and in a public match, that is more likely to lead to the player being bored because there is nothing to do but go to extraction or mop up the crumbs. 

Of course there are those who just play solo or with friends. Arguably a majority. And as far as they are concerned, everything is working as intended. As such we don't get their opinions because they are playing the game and not browsing the forums to air their grievances. 

I guess WF could go with the option of many arpgs, group size based enemy HP scaling, which only is a thing for a few specific things here currently. Which in the end sucks just as much since you may end up with 3 dead weight players in your group dragging things out longer than a solo run would take since they dont have the damage. It is a regular thing in games like Diablo 3 and so on and it doesnt really help.

Which is why I prefer solo play in either case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me its just the feeling of taking away things that dont need to be taken away. New Content isnt replayable and takes a lot of time to release. Bugs that existed 4 years ago still exist in todays version. New mods get the copy pasta treatment. Almost no focus on gameplay just on looks. I mean you can always find playstyles after some nerfs and hope that people dont make videos about it^^. the maiming strike nerf  for me was the hardest one because it took away just simply fun. Today I kill faster and more enemies but I dont have fun doing it. With the upcoming SE stacking nerf another fun grind comes to an end and arbis will be meta again until DE realizes how powerful arbi strats can be. people are afraid of sharing strats because they know it would end. When I get sick of new "updates" I take breaks but it doesnt fix the problem at all. So you take more breaks and they last longer each time but you come back to the game because there is no real competitor in the genre. Its pretty sad :smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

vor 2 Stunden schrieb lNussi:

For me its just the feeling of taking away things that dont need to be taken away. New Content isnt replayable and takes a lot of time to release. Bugs that existed 4 years ago still exist in todays version. New mods get the copy pasta treatment. Almost no focus on gameplay just on looks. I mean you can always find playstyles after some nerfs and hope that people dont make videos about it^^. the maiming strike nerf  for me was the hardest one because it took away just simply fun. Today I kill faster and more enemies but I dont have fun doing it. With the upcoming SE stacking nerf another fun grind comes to an end and arbis will be meta again until DE realizes how powerful arbi strats can be. people are afraid of sharing strats because they know it would end. When I get sick of new "updates" I take breaks but it doesnt fix the problem at all. So you take more breaks and they last longer each time but you come back to the game because there is no real competitor in the genre. Its pretty sad :smile:

the tactics are known in every good clan. besides, there aren't as many useful options in warframe as some might think. I don't count exploits among them.
everything will be playable even after nerfs. the only question is how. I don't believe in macros and especially auto-clicker macros. although I can extremely increase my damage with it.
the game should be fun. if the devs don't want to understand it then it's theirs problem. warframe is simply put aside and i wait until devs come to their senses.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. They nerf weird things. Take a nukor nerf, we have already established that even as the best secondary weapon it still gets out performed by like the 20th or 30th best melee weapon. Seems weird to acknowledge how bad primaries and secondaries are compared to melee and yet they still nerf it.

2. They put so much time into balancing the meta when the only reason we have a meta is players are trying to reduce the amount of time they actually play the game. People effectively look to speedrun content in warframe because its not really fun nor does it respect player time investment. Metas exist in PvP games because players are actively trying to be the best, in PvE games a meta is a red flag because it shows players aren't looking for the most fun weapon or frame but the one with the fastest kill time. That isn't a balance issue that's a core game design issue.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...