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The Arsenal Divide: Changes & Follow Ups


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I kind of wanting to express a general position as well. I would hate to be in the position of the people who have to make such game changing decisions and balances, or having to gather and process various forms of feedback and player reception, then determine based on that, how and why changes should be implemented. So many players opinions can, differ, overlap, conflict... "DE doesn't listen", "DE this change is bad, why did you do it?", "this change is too much", "this change will do nothing", just as a person who reads along different views, it can be a difficult mental task trying to envision a way to satisfy everyone. Or just the majority. Also often, just by default, its easy to criticise and point out the flaws inherent in a system or proposed change, and therefore to agree with such criticism and feedback, but so many of the alternatives or solutions I see counter offered would usually be met with as much disdain and criticism as well... this was happening with Invigorations too. Lots of dislike... but for different reasons, then players offering "solutions" except their solutions being in conflict with others criticisms... (this sucks, because the buff should be permanent, you should be able to pick the buff always, RNG sucks VS this is too much power creep, this will breed elitism, no one will play those frames they already don't play) 

I don't know, I guess I kind of find it funny, because I saw a lot of sentiment in the prior Arsenal thread about how it was "stupid" that the new mods to help in Steel Path be put in Steel Path acquired rewards, and suggestions about Arbitrations instead, but I have seen a lot of suggestions and feedback that I figure wouldn't change. Except in this particular instance it did change. Except personally I never thought the new mods being a SP acquired reward was "stupid", the few arguments I saw, were mostly generic and superficial, and criticism for the sake of criticism, or by players who seemed generally weary/intimidated by SP in the first place. The latter of which I find much more valid, I remember one of my first forays into SP, with a mismanaged Tigris build. Without the right build and game knowledge it can be daunting and off putting. I don't think those latter players are going to find Arbitrations easier though... its a different type of difficulty, so in some ways it is easier, but for the practice of acquiring these new rewards, I don't think it will be for those players. Relatively speaking. 

Except I can't really fault DE, because this was a reoccurring feedback in the last Arsenal Divide feedback, and other sources, Youtube, Reddit etc and then now, I am seeing much more feedback about how the move to Arbitrations is a bad idea with accompanying reasoning and arguments (that I personally find more compelling) but its like... you are "damned if you don't, and damned if you do" maybe I haven't seen good arguments for the Arbitration switch, maybe I am underestimating the difficulty of SP. Is the change going to change again? 

So in a way... I wish as a Community our criticisms were a bit better. Less hyperbolic, less abstract, more structured and considerate. Even if only to make it easier for us, the Community to sift through. I wanted to give an example, but eh, often the criticisms/arguments that I think are the worst, are created by people who are emotional/frustrated, and are venting or have some deeper seeded issue with the game, or life. I always feel bad isolating an example people might have used recently... Feelings of frustration with something are totally valid too, just as far as the pragmatic process of group feedback and developer implementation. 

Also there is value in being concise as well, and I personally suck at that. Also again I would hate to be involved in this games gameplay changes. 

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well, you guys listened, but didn't catch the point.

most of all, this thing should be considered in long term and more complex. not just adding arcanes and mods. 

melees stances have many advantages(they give some advantages like finisher damage applier, bonus damage, forced procs, etc.),

and this makes the synerges with other things(mods, arcanes, ablities, combo multifilers, etc.)

but guns don't have things like this. guns only have multishots. and this things can't be match to melee stance+'on hit' stack mods 

and it's nonsense to give 'to kill' stack mods and arcanes to guns. because guns can't kill properly in end contents like steel path.

didn't you guys made this things because users said that guns can't kill properly? and made this to get at steel path at first.

i'm agreeing that arbitration is better than steel path, but it's still a challenge. and to get arcane slots for each guns? that makes us too grinding.

and just make us to grind and hard isn't a way to make game 'fun'

it should be changed as 'access key to open the every primary/secondary arcane slots' like foundry upgrades or incubator upgrades, simulacrum key.

and also, we should have to be balanced within each weapon types(balance between primary to primary/secondary to secondary/melee to melee) too. only nerfing is not the answer. 

last. you guys forgot the bow type's galvanized mods  

 

 

 

Edited by SeviAonbharr
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6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

1) Arcanes:

Primary and Secondary Dexterity Arcanes:
- Added +60% Holster Speed 
Why:  We are including a Holster Speed benefit within the Arcane itself to ensure the whole ‘Dexterity’ aspect of it is clear with the whole Arsenal being easier to use!  

Rather than Arcanes, why not convert them into the mod equivalent of Stance Mods for Primaries/Secondaries? Part of the Arsenal Divide stems from how Primaries/Secondaries require 2-3X more Formas than Melee weapons, and yet Melee weapons reach their full potential within 1-2 Formas. Not only that, Melee stats and mods are overall better than ranged weapons. I'm aware this is saving Formas on ranged weapons, which will impact your profits, but it's rather jarring for the time invested in ranged weapons to be disproportionate to melee weapons only for melee weapons to still come out on top.

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11 minutes ago, SeviAonbharr said:

well, you guys listened, but didn't catch the point.

most of all, this thing should be considered in long term and more complex. not just adding arcanes and mods. 

melees have stances synerges(they give some advantages like finisher damage applier, bonus damage, forced procs, etc.).

but guns don't have things like this. guns only have multishots. and this things can't be match to melee stance+'on hit' stack mods 

and it's nonsense to give 'to kill' stack mods and arcanes to guns. because guns can't kill properly in end contents like steel path.

didn't you guys made this things because users said that guns can't kill properly? and made this to get at steel path at first.

i'm agreeing that arbitration is better than steel path, but it's still a challenge. and to get arcane slots for each guns? that makes us too grinding.

and just make us to grind and hard isn't a way to make game 'fun'

it should be changed as 'access key to open the every primary/secondary arcane slots' like foundry upgrades or incubator upgrades, simulacrum key.

and also, we should have to be balanced within each weapon types(balance between primary to primary/secondary to secondary/melee to melee) too. only nerfing is not the answer. 

last. you guys forgot the bow type's galvanized mods  

 

 

 

Stance mod or not, you can not avoid the games progression by stopping at 2 forma per gun. You have to put more forma in your guns if you want to perform better. An affinity booster is 40p....it's not hard.

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1 minute ago, (NSW)H2amster said:

are the galvanized mod in the arbitration store? or in the rotation rewards like the arcanes and other mods. 

 

I believe they will in the Arbitration store. In the Reddit thread Rebecca replied to a comment inquiring this very thing and affirmed it would be via Vitus Essence. 

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hace 19 minutos, SeviAonbharr dijo:

well, you guys listened, but didn't catch the point.

most of all, this thing should be considered in long term and more complex. not just adding arcanes and mods. 

melees stances have many advantages(they give some advantages like finisher damage applier, bonus damage, forced procs, etc.),

and this makes the synerges with other things(mods, arcanes, ablities, etc.)

but guns don't have things like this. guns only have multishots. and this things can't be match to melee stance+'on hit' stack mods 

and it's nonsense to give 'to kill' stack mods and arcanes to guns. because guns can't kill properly in end contents like steel path.

didn't you guys made this things because users said that guns can't kill properly? and made this to get at steel path at first.

i'm agreeing that arbitration is better than steel path, but it's still a challenge. and to get arcane slots for each guns? that makes us too grinding.

and just make us to grind and hard isn't a way to make game 'fun'

it should be changed as 'access key to open the every primary/secondary arcane slots' like foundry upgrades or incubator upgrades, simulacrum key.

and also, we should have to be balanced within each weapon types(balance between primary to primary/secondary to secondary/melee to melee) too. only nerfing is not the answer. 

last. you guys forgot the bow type's galvanized mods  

 

 

 

What I was thinking right now... We just wanted Corpus liches, the ranged weapons buff should considered in a longer term, what the players were expecting for this update was "only" Corpus liches and some skin, not all this unnecesary grind with those polemical results. 

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I still think you should just scrap all this and just buff the stats of every gun, just like you did with melee. you know... like you said you would way back in melee 2.99999 (still no 3.0 btw)

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13 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Stance mod or not, you can not avoid the games progression by stopping at 2 forma per gun. You have to put more forma in your guns if you want to perform better. An affinity booster is 40p....it's not hard.

already used 4~8 forma per guns and still this things can't deal as much as melees.

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6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

3) Galvanized Mod Acquisition:

Moved all Galvanized Mods to Arbitrations from Steel Path. 

Why: This change is rooted in the depth of the new items we’re putting in Steel Path with this Update, and the hope some players had about being able to earn the Galvanized Mods before they even arrived on the Steel Path. Since Arbitrations also require a completed Star Chart, but are a step up in difficulty from that base Star Chart, we thought (and so did many of you) that they’d be a good stepping stone for earning some of the new Upgrades! 

 

 

Whichever way you look at it, farming them in Arbitration is already worse by default. Because it means you can't farm for both arcanes and mods at the same time (another layer of grind), and vitus essence is harder to acquire than steel essence. On top of that there's the issue of whether you'll put the mods in the vitus shop or just add another layer of RNG by putting them in the drop tables (that'd be way worse IMO). 

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Arbitrations are garbage.

6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

 ...

 

3) Galvanized Mod Acquisition:

Moved all Galvanized Mods to Arbitrations from Steel Path. 

Why: This change is rooted in the depth of the new items we’re putting in Steel Path with this Update, and the hope some players had about being able to earn the Galvanized Mods before they even arrived on the Steel Path. Since Arbitrations also require a completed Star Chart, but are a step up in difficulty from that base Star Chart, we thought (and so did many of you) that they’d be a good stepping stone for earning some of the new Upgrades!

Please reconsider.  Arbitrations are boring and a flawed system with no choice of mission (hello variety?), waitwalls (you might never get a mission anyone wants to play in a whole day), low spawnrate, low-inconsistent essence drops. And the gimmick of one life had become irrelevant with shieldgating immortality, while the mobs are low level pushovers - they are trivial and really boring.

And no, it doesn't make sense to distribute out these massive upgrades tailored for Steelpath via forcing people to play different outdated and trivial mission - which btw more people hate due to above reasons - ei no choice of a mission type or faction etc.  And despite what some people claim there are enough guns that can murder SteelPath fine - the pretense about needing new mods just to be able to play SP is false.

At least give the alternative so we could earn the new mods in more than a single random Arbitration. Either add a choice of few variants to Arbitration missions or have the mods in both Arby and SteelPath stores - giving players choice and variety, isn't it what this change supposed to bring?

 

MERCILESS Arcane is still a bad idea only exaggerating the problem with mindless AoE waepons spam dominating, so most single target weapons will remain unused.

Edited by Monolake
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It seems whenever I want to play Sanctuary Onslaught or Arbitrations, the drop pool gets flooded even more...

Should we expect something similar to Relics in the future?

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Why not simply remove the +200% armor from steel path and be done with it? Never did understand how just making enemies more bullet spongey = challenge. Putting bandaids on the bandaids just seems like doing anything to avoid actually fixing anything

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2 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

Why not simply remove the +200% armor from steel path and be done with it? Never did understand how just making enemies more bullet spongey = challenge. Putting bandaids on the bandaids just seems like doing anything to avoid actually fixing anything

Scaling armor was a complaint since 2013 because it forced people to use Armor Piercing, or Serrated Blade damage in Damage 1.0.

Damage 2.0 didn't fix armor. The rampant power creep over the years was just a band-aid fix to armor, allowing players to brute force ever higher levels.

It's 2021.

Scaling armor is the sole reason why Bleed meta exists and the value of Bleed simply increases as armor scales higher. The new S-curve scaling did not change the Bleed meta.

Armor shouldn't scale at all, but that would also mean gutting all the power creep over the years that arose because of it. 

The game has too many multipliers. 

Enemy armor shouldn't scale, Viral procs and Critical damage should be additive with Base Damage. 

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Oh and while youre buffing and nerfing weapons how about finally giving the stug its weapon pass. It was completely passed over in the secondary weapon buffs last time round and still has super low crit and no status chance. Its a fun weapon but by the gods is it terrible right now compared to any other secondary. Even outperformed by the aklatos

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7 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

3) Galvanized Mod Acquisition:

Moved all Galvanized Mods to Arbitrations from Steel Path. 

Why: This change is rooted in the depth of the new items we’re putting in Steel Path with this Update, and the hope some players had about being able to earn the Galvanized Mods before they even arrived on the Steel Path. Since Arbitrations also require a completed Star Chart, but are a step up in difficulty from that base Star Chart, we thought (and so did many of you) that they’d be a good stepping stone for earning some of the new Upgrades! 

Hi! While I think this is a better idea than putting those mods in Teshin's store, Arbitration is however, not the best place to put these mods in. Railjack could be a better alternative, since RJ has been experiencing a "drought" after you do the quest and farm all the necessary Sevagoth parts. Atleast, if the mods could be found in RJ, players will have something to do in it again which is to get these galvanized mods. The arcanes should also be farmed in RJ to better incentivize players who enjoy and grind it since day one. It's just a suggestion tho but everything is fine the way it is now. Thanks! 

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7 hours ago, CheesyCanine05 said:

Question (Sorry if this was answered previously in the video): Will Galvanized Hell stack with other standard multishot mods like Hell's Chamber does?

No, it replaces Hells Chamber it in the build.

7 hours ago, (XBOX)FolksyKibbles28 said:

This still makes primary, secondarys still useless in higher level content. Plus with the nerfs coming to melee, higher level content will be difficult to do as berserker and condition overload are now virtually useless. So the best course of action is to give mods that work similar to the the melee mods thay are being changed. Please DE don't screw this up.

No they are not they'll still have a use, I've been testing them out with the mods set at the levels DE is nerfing them down too.
Refer to my below post.

 

-------------------------------------

7 hours ago, World said:

Oh my goodness - Beam weapon range mods being moved to exilus. This has honestly been a long time coming. So much QoL locked behind short range beam weapons like embolist and glaxion,


Youre late, but thank you DE.

Awesome, it'll turn my Gaze into and even bigger ranged monster. :devil:

7 hours ago, MythosoftheDamned said:

So, the solution to having mods that were better for Steel Path is to move them to Arbitrations....where the odds of getting these on a drop are still not known, nor do we know how much Arbitration currency we will need.

Arbitrations are not a great solution, if only because you can only do 1 an hour, and if you bomb out, that's it. I suspect all you have done here is made a mode that already has issues with keeping players in them for longer than a few minutes, an unrealistic expectation. 

We cannot control what Frames bonus into Arbitrations, nor can we control what others come in with as well. 

I propose you allow the mods to exist in both places, or be a drop chance in one, and purchasable in the other.

I have no issue chasing items in the Steel Path, and those mods helped with the idea of spending more time in Steel Path, aside from just the Arcanes. I'd much rather spend time in Steel Path, then being even more gated in Arbitrations given their time limits and constraints. 

I play solo 98% of the time and I'd rather play Steel Path than Arbitrations, my Sculpture collection is already huge from grinding Arbi, please don't force us back into Arbitration.
 

7 hours ago, Casardis said:

This. Allow us to grind before tackling Steel Path through Arbitration, but if you're doing well enough, you can grind Steel Essence and get the rest of the mods instead.

Please don't lock it behind a separate grind that has MUCH LESS reliable resource gain compared to Steel Essence, and more restrictive options (only one mission type per rotation).

EDIT: I wouldn't have mind this decision if Arbitration wasn't in its current state. If it had the same resource philosophy as Steel Path with Incursions and more than one MISSION/FACTION option per rotation (remember Steel Essence can be farmed on literally any mission in the Star Chart), it would be a decent decision.

If Arbitration remains unchanged, I believe the mods should be in both shops instead. Heck, you can even make them more costly in SP and MUCH LESS costly in Arbitrations to balance out the current disparity in Essence farm. However, I would prefer an Arbitration revision to bring that in line with SP in terms of fun + consistent essence rewards.

EDIT 2: Changed some wordings to reflect my thoughts more properly.

This ^ Steel Path offers a more diverse game mode than Arbitration.
PLEASE just have the mods in both modes, I hate how Arbitration locks us into playing for hours in a gamemode that is boring and dull I can only go 2 hours before I need to seek therapy to the detriment of my mental health just to get a pitiful Vitus Essence drop rate.

 

7 hours ago, Anaktoria said:

Please consider allowing these mods to be in both Arbitrations in some form (maybe not direct drops) and also in Steel Path. This will further dilute the already-strained Arbitration drop tables, and I don't like that I will have the choice of exactly one mission type, chosen via RNG, per hour to play if I want these mods. Steel Path allows much more flexibility in how we choose to obtain these, especially for older players like myself who are sick of Arbitrations. 

 

This ^
 

6 hours ago, Maryph said:

Silly me who thought that they were going to increase SP alert rewards from 3 to 5 because of those mods arriving in the shop
I guess DE really don't know what to do

But, with this move to change from SP to arbitration, supposedly because the mods are made to balance melee and primaries in SP missions
Isn't arcanes, that drop on acolytes in SP missions, also supposed to help with that too ?

This isn't making any sense the more I think about it

WHAT THE HELL DE, why increase SE drops when you just go and move mods to Arbitration game mode, seriously please share what you're smoking. :P

6 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

Yes because it was absolutely impossible to run guns in SP until now. Completely impossible.

I like how people that have never run Steel Path are in charge of determining how "difficult" SP is "supposed" to be.

Meanwhile half the available arsenal works in SP just fine.

 

My thoughts exactly. 

5 hours ago, Taiepii said:

Please explain me how I'm suppose to equip any of those new mods ? I'm full forma, each slot with the right polarity and I'm still at 0 / 60 I can not even equip amalgam to begin with.

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Understand as well that I cannot properly have different Elemental build because of Cold being the only Varazin polarity 
 

Yes, I'm trying to work out how the hell I'm going to fit the new mods into my guns as well even with every slot forma'd, looks like DE want us to forma max our builds which locks us into certain builds because gone are the days where we could get away with a mismatched polarity mod to be able to create differing builds.

 

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(The following text is translated by Google, please forgive me if there is any error)
Seeing that DE values the constructive opinions of players and makes a wave of changes, I feel relieved. This is good news.
Although these unreleased new modules and new arcane arts have been enhanced, I think these primary and secondary weapons need more enhancements to counter melee weapons in order to achieve a balance. I suggest dividing the strengthening of these primary and secondary weapons into several periods, such as strengthening a part of the primary and secondary weapons in a period, until all the primary and secondary weapons are perfected.
After talking about the main and secondary weapons, when will the mods of those melee weapons (referring to: Berserker, Blood Rush, Condition Overload) be changed? Especially [Berserker] this mod has been weakened too much. I hope to further improve the mods of these melee weapons, and hope that your changes will allow everyone to use these mods normally.
Continue to improve, hope that there will be no major problems after these things are online

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4 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And if that still doesn't work, maybe builds just aren't supposed to fit 4 Primed mods and a Riven and Galvanized mods and a maxed Exilus? Maybe you need to start making choices about the priorities in your build instead of taking everything and the kitchen sink?

So in other word if I do want to use everything and the kitchen sink, I must play Kuva & Ganum weapon for their 40 capacity. 
Which mean I limit my selection to only a few weapon if I really want to get the full advantage of my mods ? 

So DE try to balance Gun & Blade to improve the variety of selection, yet don't see the problem with 60 capacity on Gun, versus 70 capacity on Blade ( Yes thank to stance ), and 80 capacity on Kuva. 

Thank to explain me how lower grade mods to free some slot capacity. I was actually too stupid to not see that. Next time I will learn to play with only R0 mods so I'm sure all of them fit. 

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8 hours ago, ScionNinja14 said:

What do you mean why. How are people supposed to get mods to kill steel path enemies by farming the steel path which they can't kill enemies in? Makes perfect sense to me to put it in between steel path and normal star chart

and how exactly did you get normal serration? normal split chamber??? ohhh thats right.. you PLAYED the game! you did the content of the game and got mods to be stronger in this content.......

 

now we have harder content [that is MORE than clearable right now (YES even with guns!)] and finally would have had an actual REASON to play and farm it. these would have been GREAT rewards that would have made the experience of playing steelpath MUCH more rewarding overtime.. which instead of having ONE great farm, we now have TWO seperated, each much less rewarding, farms that will cost more time and be less engaging since arbitrations are abominations where you play unbalacened op super extra lame easy mode.

Edited by SmokinDice
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Can you just let how it was supposed to be at first? 
i hate arbitrarion so much.

time gate limited missions with low level enemies, yes level 60 are weak. 
and not only that vitus esenses are a pain in the ass to farm. 
farming the new mods/arcanes in SP was going to be so rewarding but now farming that stuff in arbi feels like it’s going to be painful. I’m sorry I had to say this. 

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Just now, Animalon29 said:

Can you just let how it was supposed to be at first? 
i hate arbitrarion so much.

time gate limited missions with low level enemies, yes level 60 are weak. 
and not only that vitus esenses are a pain in the ass to farm. 
farming the new mods/arcanes in SP was going to be so rewarding but now farming that stuff in arbi feels like it’s going to be painful. I’m sorry I had to say this. 

yeah.. 100% truth.. really bad change.. Im really sad and much less hyped about the update.. finally would have been an engaging farm in steelpath..

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