The Arsenal Divide: Changes & Follow Ups

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

Sorry, bud.  Melee and guns are not gonna trade places.  Even with the nerfs to certain mods, melee will still outperform guns, by quite a bit.   Melee is not about to be nerfed out of existence.

 

[Sahansral]

My expectatiosn based on the presented changes:

* melee will still rule albeit with a drastic smaller pool of weapons
* with the the new arcanes being "on kill" they'll feel too slow in comparison to melee
* weekly buffs for warframes feels like a big power creep that dwarfs any earned progression
* the new helminth abilities feel very bland/redundant
* the parazon mod pool ist already too big for those few slots!
* big units will still  get onehitted before a player has a chance to react
* Btw, what about exalted weapons, arch guns, damaging focus abilities, mechs?!

Overall: As always we only get band-aid mods instead what would have been the proper solution: Streamline the oversized mod pool across all weapon categories and change the stats of all weapons accordingly. Yes, that's  alot of work, but we would have a solid basis again...

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

You're a little late.....this was decided once that youtuber made that video.

[TeaHands]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You're a little late.....this was decided once that youtuber made that video.

As it goes with most major decisions in life thankfully. Once youtubers start a meme or joke, mountains are moved.

[keTch-uP]

13 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

But the real problem with this approach is that instead of just bringing up the primaries and the secondaries, DE is also nerfing the melees which means that all that's going to happen is that the melees will trade places with the primaries and the secondaries.

The update will certainly be a net nerf to Steel Path farming since even with the buffs to guns they will in no way reach old levels of Melee power. Also sorry for going a bit off-topic here, but I think the main culprit here is still armour(and to a certain extent shield)-scaling, it simply needs to be capped at a certain not too high percentage. A huge advantage of melee are the big slash procs, there is simply no way any gun can compete with these. Why there is even a need for armour-scaling when there's already a scaling factor(HP) is a question for another topic.

 

[Krankbert]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb Almagnus1:

If DE was serious about solving this issue, they'd introduce the galvanized mods, wait and see how it shakes out with the playerbase, and then adjust with data on what the players do and then take action against the melee mods IF IT WAS WARRANTED.  The last thing any of us want to see is something getting nerfed out of existence when it really didn't need to be in the first place.

They can also buff melee again if it turns out that it was overnerfed.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

15 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

As it goes with most major decisions in life thankfully. Once youtubers start a meme or joke, mountains are moved.

A youtuber should make a video explaining how all rivens should be 1.5 dispo :P

[ReaverKane]

OP has a point, a lot of the melee changes are an over-correction. Not only did they nerf Berserk, they compounded that nerf with not being able to stack with Fury (and Primed Fury), each of these alone is already a significant game changer, stacked its too much, and not happy with that they also nerfed other stacking mods.

I mean they did their job right in the first half, they correctly identified why melee was outperforming. But then instead of applying those factors to ranged weapons, they nerfed those factors and half-baked part of it into guns. On-kill stacking isn't the same as a combo counter stacking, or a crit stacking (like berserker). Which means the ramp up will be slower always, and depending on how the buffs decay it'll still be crap because the game isn't well planned from the start, and they keep on putting patches instead of replacing the bad parts with new systems that are better planned.

Imagine being reliant on the on-kill ramp up in a defense. You're going to eventually lose at the start of a new wave because the interval between waves is likely going to wipe your buffs. And the new enemies will be inevitably stronger than the last.

5 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

They can also buff melee again if it turns out that it was overnerfed.

Sure, but by the time they do, how many people will have lost interest in the game because guns will still be useless in SP, and melee will be less optimal anyway, so you're stuck with no good options, except to go back to old cheese builds.

They're doing everything wrong with this patch, they're being too shallow and lazy on the depth of the change. Guns need a mechanic that mirrors combo counter, so that they can have mods that work off of it, just like melee.
They're mixing too many variables at once, which will make it harder to identify issues and correct it properly.
They're not using the TEST SERVER, THEY HAVE A TEST SERVER!!! Use the goddamn thing!!

[Krankbert]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb ReaverKane:

Sure, but by the time they do, how many people will have lost interest in the game because guns will still be useless in SP, and melee will be less optimal anyway, so you're stuck with no good options, except to go back to old cheese builds.

So basically the reasons you gave for wanting them to delay the nerf were all a bunch of crap, in reality you want them to not do the nerf because the nerf will be the end of the game, and you know yourself how dumb that sounds so you feigned something more reasonable.

[0_The_F00l]

I think it couldn't come sooner.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

32 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

So the stated goal of the update is to unify the arsenal and make it so we have a bunch of good choices...

But the real problem with this approach is that instead of just bringing up the primaries and the secondaries, DE is also nerfing the melees which means that all that's going to happen is that the melees will trade places with the primaries and the secondaries.

If DE was serious about solving this issue, they'd introduce the galvanized mods, wait and see how it shakes out with the playerbase, and then adjust with data on what the players do and then take action against the melee mods IF IT WAS WARRANTED.  The last thing any of us want to see is something getting nerfed out of existence when it really didn't need to be in the first place.

No. ANY change DE does will produce the same statement you are making. Instead, let's allow the work to actually land in the hands of the entire playerbase so we can weed through the second wave of subjective comments, rants, praises and accusations.

[BiancaRoughfin]

44 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

instead of just bringing up the primaries and the secondaries, DE is also nerfing the melees

I would like to note that so far the only changes they have shown so far regarding Melee weapons aside Glaives has been on some Mods.

[Uhkretor]

49 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

which means that all that's going to happen is that the melees will trade places with the primaries and the secondaries.

That's your Melee, not mine. My Melee is going to remain where it has always been, free of crutches and bad habits.

[Almagnus1]

34 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

They can also buff melee again if it turns out that it was overnerfed.

And that has happened when exactly?

[Unimira]

On 2021-06-22 at 9:02 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

- Reduced MERCILESS Arcanes Duration from 6 to 4 secs

Please don't nerf duration, if a weapon actually needs the extra damage even 6 seconds is very short. The other two arcanes have vastly longer duration for the same total damage boost so why go after the one that already had the most difficult condition? (12x 30% 4s VS 6x 60% 20s VS 3x 120% 24s, extra headshot multiplier too)

Also, I consider Arbitrations less accessible than Steel Path since you are limited to one life and one mission per hour. Damage output isn't much of an issue in Steel Path either since you have the option to go up against squishy Infested.

[ReaverKane]

12 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

I would like to note that so far the only changes they have shown so far regarding Melee weapons aside Glaives has been on some Mods.

"Some mods" that were integral to the reason why melee is so effective on steel path, and guns aren't.

22 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

So basically the reasons you gave for wanting them to delay the nerf were all a bunch of crap, in reality you want them to not do the nerf because the nerf will be the end of the game, and you know yourself how dumb that sounds so you feigned something more reasonable.

Sure dude, i guess you're immensely more qualified than i am to say this. Lol
Yes, i don't think the nerf should happen, because melee isn't that overtuned, its ranged that is undertuned, because this game has a scaling problem.

All things that are considered egregiously overpowered, like Saryn, melee, etc. Have the same thing in common, they can stack, while the rest of the arsenal starts and ends at the same power level, which given that enemies scale with time, in SP where they're defensive capabilities are extremely exaggerated, the lack of scaling on weapons is more telling.

And that was the main thing that guns needed, a mechanic that allows them to scale, the new mods and arcanes kinda do that, but they're going to underperform, simply because baseline guns can't kill efficiently, that's the whole problem with them. So having them scale off of on kills effects is going to end up with the same problem in SP, but with guns being retarded in regular star chart, where they can rake up kills as it is.

As for what i said being crap or not, time will tell.

[Krankbert]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Almagnus1:

And that has happened when exactly?

Not easy pretending to be reasonable when all you really want is whine and cry and scream pointless hyperbole, isn't it?

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

4 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

"Some mods" that were integral to the reason why melee is so effective on steel path, and guns aren't.

You don't need those mods to do steel path, you need them to steamroll steel path

[AJAL8000]

Is this Destiny 2 or Warframe?

Where is the blade for the space Ninja?

Nerfing the mods is not the solution. 

[ReaverKane]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

You don't need those mods to do steel path, you need them to steamroll steel path

You read the word effective, correct?
Given the repetitive and grindy nature of this game, steamrolling is how you need to be playing it.

[Monrka]

This whole new changes looks terrible.

Weak weapons will get even worse and aoe weapons such as bramma or acceltra even better.

How should I manage to kill anything and maintain counter with ordinary weapon like taiberon if there are 2 bramma users in the squad?

P.S. I hoped that this patch make primary as good as melee and we'll be able to use them in long endurance runs. In fact, you nerfed the only tools that was viable for 1k+ levels. And primary still sucks. Great job, DE.

 

 

[HorstFoll]

I don't understand why literally every new mod/arcane depends on the very same boring "On Kill" condition.

How is that supposed to improve the experience from using guns in general? This doesn't seem to buff the vast amount of bad ones either. If a gun could not kill fast enough before, it still doesn't perform better with these mods. In fact, these bad guns may even perform worse with those mods and will be power crept even more by guns that were already in a good place before. Well, except for the Kuva Nukor obviously. RIP.

 

Regarding arbitrations/SP: Why not place the new mods/arcanes into both modes (shops!), so players can decide which "end game" content they want to grind for progression? Arbitrations doesn't sounds bad to me, because there will be at least a reason to play that mode again. On the other hand, not being able to chose the mission definitely sucks.

[ReddyDisco]

yes melee is done for, good bye press E to win, end of warframe too. Pack it up boys we are done

/s

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Almagnus1:

If DE was serious about solving this issue, ...

they can't. this is an absolutely blatant effort and is destroyed with every major update.
DE actually has top people in my opinion. but you can't jump higher than your head. that’s a fact!

[BiancaRoughfin]

3 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

Given the repetitive and grindy nature of this game, steamrolling is how you need to be playing it.

Thats a subjective point of view and i doubt half the community abide by that.