The Arsenal Divide: Changes & Follow Ups

[XaeVS]

I'm not saying the player base could be bribed into acceptance or acquiescence to the change by a couple of QOL of improvements but...

 

We could totally be bribed into acceptance or acquiescence if a heavy attack toggle was added and exalted melee weapons got a quick pass.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

12 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

Have you played anything on Deimos's open world yet?

 

So...there's a mission where you're supposed to kill twice as many enemies as the Grineer.  The Grineer are almost universally armed with an ignis of some sort.  You often wind up running that mission, and failing the extra objective because you did 99% of the damage, but a Grineer wielding the "hold button and point at enemy" weapon technically does that last tick of damage.  Almost like DE has seen how often this happens in other game modes...and decided to troll the players.

 

 

Joking aside, on-kill is idiotic.  The same rules as above apply....but could be even worse.  Imagine for a moment you are Saryn....because she does most killing with spores.  Imagine you cast your spore, do damage, shoot an enemy, and then the spore kills them.  As the definition of "on-kill" hasn't yet been given, do you get the bonus?

You did kill the enemy.

You did not kill them with the primary or secondary weapon.

When you compare this to...say, Arcane Fury, the terminology becomes muddy.  Arcane Fury says you cause a critical hit, you get a chance to increase melee damage.  That critical is not linked to any type of weapon, so I an equip something like the Lenz and use it as a nearly guaranteed activator for the melee buff.  The catch of course is that these are arcane specifically designed for a weapon type.  Let's compare to Exodia Force.  It states on a status effect you have a chance of dealing more weapon damage...but it's locked to a range.  This means that despite stating it's any status effect, the arcane only works on melee killing and with melee weapons.

 

 

 

So, TL;DR.  The frustration is that, as usual, DE barely grips the English language when writing descriptions.  Due to their inability to communicate, and their track record of things not working in logical ways, people are afraid that triggering these very short lived arcanes is going to be functionally impossible.  They fear this because guns are a surprisingly slow way of killing things, and if you have to be responsible for the kill a weapon capable of doing 99% of the required damage to kill will be 100% incapable of triggering the bonus.  As DE decided to link all of these things to the poorly worded description, people are freaking out.  Kill stealing matter, even though it shouldn't, because if the buffs required to improve guns are blocked by impossible activation requirements we have seen no improvements.

Warframe is a lot like Yu-Gi-Oh, but some of us wished it was like Magic the Gathering.

[Leqesai]

On 2021-06-22 at 11:11 AM, Wiz3rd said:

So the endless amount of feedback in other (and much more important) areas didn't make it through?
This whole post didn't do anything to make me feel any better about many glaring issues that were simply brushed off it seems.

Welcome to warframe, where the devs do just enough to let people know they are listening and not enough to actually fix core issues with the content they produce.

[ShogunGunshow]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

But who cares, the enemies will be dead. I don't care who kills them.

Lots of people care about actually playing the game and contributing. Shocking.

[DarthVZ]

I wonder what this long radio silence from the devs means. Did they just stick their fingers in their ears and ignored 99% of the feedback?

[(XBOX)Shodian]

5 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Lots of people care about actually playing the game and contributing. Shocking.

I mean, solo is there for a reason.

[Joezone619]

You ignore the majority and most critical parts of player feedback, and then wonder why players keep leaving?

[ShogunGunshow]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

I mean, solo is there for a reason.

Clearly the answer to how to get a quality experience in a squad-based multiplayer shooter isn't to make sure that things are enjoyable and players can contribute, it's to tell anyone that doesn't like feeling like a third wheel to get stuffed and play solo.

Except no, that's definitely not how *DE* designs things. (See: the multiple times they've completely killed degenerate playstyles where warframes and weapons have made it unfun for other players to play, like sitting in a corner and Atterax spamming.) So acting like it's the intent of Solo mode to deal with those issues is ignorant at best, and deliberately disingenuous at worst.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

49 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Clearly the answer to how to get a quality experience in a squad-based multiplayer shooter isn't to make sure that things are enjoyable and players can contribute, it's to tell anyone that doesn't like feeling like a third wheel to get stuffed and play solo

Lol

Dude, we're so powerful as it is that half the time I forget that I have squad mates with me when I play multi-player. This isn't going to change anything, and when the update comes out you'll see it first hand.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2021-06-29 at 3:28 AM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s balanced by the fact that in order to get the damage buff you have to do the one thing DE acknowledged guns struggle to do at steel path levels. Kill the enemy.

Wait no, that’s not balanced. That’s just bad design.

Nah, it really is balanced because guns aren't as bad as people claim. The guns are on par with the average fps fighting high level enemies. Melee simply had a power ramp up system where as guns didn't. Not a single person on this forum can spot an SP butcher and say "oh, he's tanky af" because he'll be killed by modded mk-1 braton bullets before the phrase is spoken! This is why DE should ignore naysayers...they are not looking at the full scope of the game.

[cha0sWyrM]

all this talk is pointless. nothing is really going to change.

there is one reason and one reason only why melee is so much more powerful than guns....and thats "mash "e" to win".

any melee weapon in the game can take out unlimited hordes of bad guys with nearly zero effort. slap on primed reach and it becomes comically absurd. next add in some attack speed mods and the game is now broken.

until de decides to address that reality...the only way guns can ever hope to keep up is to have each and every one have (a lot of) aoe damage...and even then it wont be good enough because you still have to take some time to kinda sorta point it in the right direction.

melee weapons are in effect....massive constant damage dealing aoe weapons that never stop to reload and are always pumping out the dps so long as theres enemies around... and they require zero skill or thought behind their use.

de painted themselves into this corner...they see they made a mistake making melee so simple...but that cats outta the bag now. a few minor nerfs to melee and these (what appear to be) next to useless gun buffs arent gonna get it back in. these changes arent really going to effect how anyone plays the game. when all is said and done...were gonna have to remod our weapons, but were all still going to be primarily melee users....we just wont be doing quite as much killing as before.

after a 30 min sp survival....maybe youll only have 2500 kills instead of 2800....or whatever.
 

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Nah, it really is balanced because guns aren't as bad as people claim. The guns are on par with the average fps fighting high level enemies. Melee simply had a power ramp up system where as guns didn't. Not a single person on this forum can spot an SP butcher and say "oh, he's tanky af" because he'll be killed by modded mk-1 braton bullets before the phrase is spoken! This is why DE should ignore naysayers...they are not looking at the full scope of the game.

Well if the guns are capable of killing then they don’t need the buffs.

[Spectre028]

Damn boo imagine having to grind for "gun buffs" 😂

[master_of_destiny]

10 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

But who cares, the enemies will be dead. I don't care who kills them.

Did you read anything?

 

Let me short this for you.

Arcane activates on you kill.

Arcane is designed to bridge the power gap between melee and guns.

Arcane can't be counted on, because kills cannot be acchieved.

Guns therefore are not getting buffs...and the "increase in power" that these changes promised are literally impossible.

 

 

You want another example in-game?  The Smeeta Kavat can double resource drops.  It's an inconsistent bonus.  People have discovered a way around this for very valuable items (steel/vitus essence).  They simply leave drops until the buff activates, then collect stuff.  Now imagine if this buff was on kill by a kavat you have a chance to get the buff.  Hmmm....companion kills happen very rarely.  So....can I really ever count on the potential for a double loot buff?  

Now make it even better.  Take that on companion kill buff, and require multiple in the window of 6 seconds.  Holy crap, I can never count on the buff.

 

 

 

Why does any of this matter?  If you are "empowering" guns to be more balanced with melee, but the power improvement rarely works, what have you done?  Well, you've promised people a mushroom dinner, and instead of a bunch of cleaned and cooked mushrooms what they find on their plates is manure with plenty on mycelia.  Technically that's a mushroom....but to get to any edible bits you've got to deal with a lot of crap.  That is, of course, not solving a problem.  It's selling unobtainable power, and claiming it is a solution without ever understanding how it can function in actual usage scenarios.

As other people put it, I can press x three times and kill three enemies.  I alternatively shoot an enemy twice, bet a small buff, shoot the next one twice again, and get the full buff, before finishing off enemy three in one shot.  A couple of seconds later the buff disappears.  What in hades is the purpose of using the guns then?  5 shots versus 3 slashes, and at the end of the day I have to plow into another group to keep the buff going if I don't want to lose all that "extra power" from an insane investment to unlock the arcane slot, grind out the arcanes, get the vitus essence to get the mods, and discover melee is still better.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

21 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Did you read anything?

I did, and you guys are reading waaaay too much into this.

[master_of_destiny]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

I did, and you guys are reading waaaay too much into this.

 

OK....Let me short this again.

Read the description for arcane fury.  Any crit, you get a chance for melee damage increase.  Triggered by guns and melee.  Fantastic.

Exodia force says if you inflict a status you do a burst of damage in a radius....but only triggers from the melee weapon.

 

So...these arcanes are weapon specific.  It looks like they'll therefore require weapon kills to activate.  Read everything else I wrote, and then carefully consider how often you kill with a secondary or primary, and measure against either a melee kill or an ability.  

 

If you're most players, who do high level content, you rarely get a gun kill.  Back to statement one, DE has an established history of a bad grasp on clear English.  Fine.  Based on history we will have to kill with a gun to get anything started.  Also fine.  That becomes not fine when enemies become sponges, which is why people who do higher level missions are looking at this "improvement to guns" as a bad joke.

If your goal is the star chart, this entire exercise is a joke.  Enemies are trivial.  When your goal is Steel Path, where enemies can often take a full clip of headshots to kill, then the arcances cannot ever activate.  No activation, no power.  No power, no improvement for guns.  No gun improvement, combined with melee nerf, is a slap in the face for most players.  Rather simply line of logic.

 

 

 

If I was to gamble, based upon your flippancy you don't care because even once activated these don't matter if the enemy is already dead.  Fine.  What isn't fine is being sold a gun enhancement, and getting a melee nerf with an unusable arcane set.  That's the frustration and anger.  Maybe now you get it, or maybe not.  Either way, you're welcome to the last word.  It seems like you genuinely don't give a crap about another perspective, specifically understanding its origins, so there's nothing further to be gained after explaining this in three different ways.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

11 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

When your goal is Steel Path, where enemies can often take a full clip of headshots to kill, then the arcances cannot ever activate.  No activation, no power.  No power, no improvement for guns.  No gun improvement, combined with melee nerf, is a slap in the face for most players.  Rather simply line of logic.

Oooorrrr, get this. You use a combination of all your weapons. Strike a few times on the smaller enemies with melee, then shoot them, boom there's your gun buffs, while you're doing that you've CCed the other enemies with Vauban, Volt, Excalibur, etc and then go after the harder enemies. You also before the mission took the time to mod your weapons according to the enemies you are fighting to debut them as well. Shocking I know. 

Again, you're looking too much into it. Wait until you've given the update a try before you freak out over something this small.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

I did, and you guys are reading waaaay too much into this.

Yes they are. It's actually incredible how overboard they're going with it. Sixty-five paragraphs of writing attempting to fight what they haven't even tried yet. It's ridiculous.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Oooorrrr, get this. You use a combination of all your weapons. Strike a few times on the smaller enemies with melee, then shoot them, boom there's your gun buffs, while you're doing that you've CCed the other enemies with Vauban, Volt, Excalibur, etc and then go after the harder enemies. You also before the mission took the time to mod your weapons according to the enemies you are fighting to debut them as well. Shocking I know. 

Again, you're looking too much into it. Wait until you've given the update a try before you freak out over something this small.

And THERE IT IS!!

[Thanzilla]

Here are a few ideas that i think would be better suited to address the divide instead of generic damage buffs:

Galvanice mods -> Nerf substantially or add riven dispo for each weapon on their buff

Gun Arcanes -> Delete them all and create new ones that makes us actually use non aoe weapons in steel path

Example 1

Reaching the maximum number of statuses of a single type on an enemy triggers an AOE TRUE DAMAGE explosion dealing x% weapon damage.  Can only proc once every X seconds

Example 2

Killing an enemy with a status debuff applies the same type and number of debuffs to surrounding enemies in x meter range. Can only proc once every X seconds

Example 3

Hitting a single enemy 10-20 times in 1-2 seconds (random numbers) triggers an AOE TRUE DAMAGE explosion dealing x% weapon damage.  Can only proc once every X seconds.

Example 4

The headshot arcane that already exists for kitguns. Make another version and add it for all guns. Could be buffed since it will be for SP.

Example 5

Overkill Headshot damage gets multiplied by X and then explodes as TRUE DAMAGE in an AOE

Example 6

X% chance for double Slash proc. Slash proc duration increased.

Example 7

If the enemy is affected by no damaging status procs your bullets/ beam chain/s x amount of times to nearby enemies.

Example 8

If your enemy has any amount of armor or shields gain X% of weapon damage as true aoe damage when hitting that enemy.

[TSx_Osa__PL]

Melee nerfs, long overdue, are not so aggressive as I thought they will be, but they are addressing at least some of the problems.
What is not addressed is that Heavy Attacks are still great for tougher targets, and everything else, gets shredded cause each melee is basically and AOE weapon, and AOE is king still.

For On Kill effects to work, and be reliable to proc on a non AOE weapon, most of the weapons should be able first to kill reliably, atm for the Steel Path, they just can't do that.
Even when you get around to spending 20 or so hours getting that good riven roll, weapons will still underperform on Steel Path.
Im kinda worried that you guys just saw how good the melee is and forgot how bad primaries/secondaries can be. These On Kill effects will shine on AOE weapons and on all content BELOW Steel Path, where is it much easier to kill an enemy using whatever, and wont do a lot to help weapons that already are weak, not usable on Steel Path. You've just nerfed nukor, and with these new mods and arcanes, you basically buffed all other AOE weapons, and the worst thing is they really didn't need a buff.

The other problem is that you guys said that Steel Path is, and I quote "NOT ENDGAME", and that you wont balance game around it, yet here we are, you are doing that.

I don't think these mods will get much use from me, arcanes are just free damage, so whatever.

Time will tell if these changes are good or not, but I fear that they will help primaries and secondaries, but not in the way you guys want to. 

[(XBOX)CFG SatanDevil]

Maybe its to simple or I make a mistake.

i use PRIMARY/SECONDARY DEXTERITY and kill with my melee to earn a 360% damage buff for my gun, I kill with my gun to activate the bonus on galavanized mods…..  it’s a circle 

[60framespersecond]

With the update including these changes just around the corner, what is the reply to all the feedback given?

Some important questions haven't been (officially in the workshop posts) answered yet as well, like clarifying that the change to CO does not include a status cap (I think this was clarified on some stream?). Or how the decay of buff stacks works. The `on kill` stuff being a recurring subject of criticism (after skimming the ~100 pages of feedback) hasn't been addressed in any way either.

[(PSN)RWalls91]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Oooorrrr, get this. You use a combination of all your weapons. Strike a few times on the smaller enemies with melee, then shoot them, boom there's your gun buffs, while you're doing that you've CCed the other enemies with Vauban, Volt, Excalibur, etc and then go after the harder enemies. You also before the mission took the time to mod your weapons according to the enemies you are fighting to debut them as well. Shocking I know. 

Again, you're looking too much into it. Wait until you've given the update a try before you freak out over something this small.

Soooo what you're saying is I should farm arbitration for the new mods to buff guns mainly outside steel path, or just meta ones in steel path, so I can then farm steel path with melee to get 21 copies of an arcane that buffs my guns when I use my melee,  so I can make use of the mods I farmed from arbitration for a few seconds?

Did I get it teach?

[(PSN)RWalls91]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)CFG SatanDevil said:

Maybe its to simple or I make a mistake.

i use PRIMARY/SECONDARY DEXTERITY and kill with my melee to earn a 360% damage buff for my gun, I kill with my gun to activate the bonus on galavanized mods…..  it’s a circle 

Yeah but we take a nerf to melee to encourage us to farm a lot just to get an arcane set for us to use melee to buff the gun. While I like the concept of using all your arsenal together and I will likely do the above, it's a very roundabout way of buffing guns, especially when you have to use melee to farm the arcanes in the first place.

To clarify, I like the idea of mixing primary secondary melee and warframe abilities, but they could have implemented and encouraged this interaction so much better.

Edit: Also gun buffs timers being short is detrimental, as it encourages a 'well what's the point I might as well stick with melee' mentality.