The Arsenal Divide: Changes & Follow Ups

[Pendragon1951]

Personally I think all this was overkill and much unnecessary work, when all you really had to do is leave Melee alone and buff Primary and Secondary to the level Melee currently is, it always seems like they pick the hardest route to get something done??

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

An issue with modding in Warframe is that we have more damage multipliers than we have slots to fit them all. Weaker multipliers provided by Fire Rate come with caveats like ammo consumption and are actively discouraged with DPS based DR. If weapons had more slots than the game had damage multipliers, then their would be ample room for QoL.

If guns are underperforming compared to melee, maybe guns across the board could have their modding capacity bumped up from 30/60 to 45/90 and have 4 extra slots added with the Exilus slot removed?

These extra 4 slots and 15/30 capacity could be locked behind the Exilus adapter. To me it made no sense that Ammo Mutation which is the biggest buff to the Bramma's sustained DPS was not regarded as a DPS mod.

This would alleviate the disparity in modding capacity between melee and guns, where melee have the advantage of stances which are effectively the melee equivocal to multi-shot that provides capacity rather than draining it. 

Even with 12 slots, melee would still be stronger with 8. At the very least, gun modding would be more flexible because a lot of builds are already sitting on 7+ Forma.

It would be an opportunity to sell more forma after all.

[(XBOX)CFG SatanDevil]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb (PSN)RWalls91:

Soooo what you're saying is I should farm arbitration for the new mods to buff guns mainly outside steel path, or just meta ones in steel path, so I can then farm steel path with melee to get 21 copies of an arcane that buffs my guns when I use my melee,  so I can make use of the mods I farmed from arbitration for a few seconds?

Did I get it teach?

Yes 

[ShogunGunshow]

2 hours ago, 60framespersecond said:

With the update including these changes just around the corner, what is the reply to all the feedback given?

DE won't give you one.

DE always releases their first draft, makes any changes from any immediate feedback, and then never touches it again unless it's truly broken (see: railjack). 

[(PSN)RWalls91]

19 minutes ago, (XBOX)CFG SatanDevil said:

Yes 

So if I can already kill things in steel path with melee even after the nerfs, why should I grind the new arcanes to buff guns?

Why should I grind arbitrations for the new mods?

Why should I spend forma on guns?

TL:DR why should I spend my time and money on this game?

Don't get me wrong I'll eventually get them, but I'm not excited for this update. They gave us nerfs then dangled a carrot for us to chase.

 

[(XBOX)Shodian]

38 minutes ago, (PSN)RWalls91 said:

why should I grind the new arcanes to buff guns?

For fun? You know, like why you're playing a game in the first place?

[(PSN)RWalls91]

11 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

For fun? You know, like why you're playing a game in the first place?

Guessing you didn't read this bit?

50 minutes ago, (PSN)RWalls91 said:

Don't get me wrong I'll eventually get them

 

I was making an example of how people see this. Grinding is fun when it is rewarding. I'm MR30, 1459 daily logins and 3566 hours played, so trust me done my fair share of grind. I put my time and money into this game because I enjoyed it, gave myself goals.

These workshops however aren't fun. I will want to max out my damage potential because that's the kind of player I am, no point running around in a half baked warframe with a half baked weapon right? The approach to on kill buffs with guns here will buff guns where they already succeed. Offering the mods through arbitration will (in theory) give players who already have potent guns in the star chart to have more power in the star chart than they already do. On steel path however the vast majority of guns, especially non aoe weapons will suffer. Let's be clear though, they will suffer against grineer, because that's what people mod and test themselves for- taking on enemies with armor.

These on kill buffs are also on timers, forcing a player to choose between repeated firing and hoping for another kill after reload before the timer expires. Combo can sustain and be built quickly, whereas guns will have a short window for power increase (just talking mods for now). In short these mods will not help players bring guns to steel path.

Melee is a good source of strong slash procs that can bypass that armor and can hit multiple enemies at a time. Even if you bring say a Nyx to strip armor, you're at the mercy of acolytes which can take out your abilities, slash proc you, and put you into lifted status even while you have status immunity, therefore it's wiser to rely on melee and a frame with high ehp.

Players will still find melee the go to until they get the arcanes, and even after all the grind then and only then do guns become a preferable option, or a I just killed x amount of enemies with melee, I will fire off a stronger shot. Chances are though that shot won't touch the grineer due to the armor, unless you are armor stripping, applying statuses etc.

DE's goal was to bring guns up to the power of melee and allow players to have more choice in missions, especially in regards to steel path. Diversifying and providing options is great, and encourages people to be creative and have enjoyment, play the way they want to play. However with these melee nerfs they're actually shrinking melee choices and reinforcing the meta options, and with the gun 'buffs' they're also shrinking gun choices and reinforcing the meta there too. That isn't diversifying or providing choice, and as the gun buffs aren't worth the overall time for grinding due to the time limitations they have when we already have tools that do the job better, most people just see nerfs with a bandaid option for guns. Will I farm the bandaid? Yes because I want to max. Do I agree with it and think DE are being smart? No. And with them ignoring large amounts of feedback (glares over at helminth) it only reinforces a desire to play something else.

The issue here is while the intentions were good and diversifying choice is a great sentiment to add more fun and engagement, it has been thought out and enacted poorly. The massive upvotes and outcry reverberating these thoughts on various platforms should send warning signs, but they're being ignored.

So yes, you should want to play the game, you should want to get stronger, you should enjoy it. But when the developer tries to fix a problem by making it worse and is ignorant to it's community that are giving great suggestions and feedback, it doesn't make the game fun, because the community doesn't feel valued. And if people feel that way they won't want to play, simple as.

[60framespersecond]

5 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

DE won't give you one.

DE always releases their first draft, makes any changes from any immediate feedback, and then never touches it again unless it's truly broken (see: railjack). 

Yes, I suppose you could call it a rhetorical question. I didn't want to be too negative about how they're handling this once again and I'm still trying to. So we'll leave it at that.

[Cash4Cookies]

On 2021-06-23 at 6:17 PM, mrgudveseli said:

If you have access to the SP, you for sure have access to arbitrations. How is accessibility reduced?

because 1 of them offers me 233 possible missions i can do at any time for any duration, while the other one gives me 1 mission i can run per hour

[Udoshi]

On 2021-06-22 at 12:02 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Tenno!

Bonus: Beam Weapon Mods! 
4) General Beam Weapon Mod Change:
Ruinous Extension and Sinister Reach are now slottable in the Exilus slot and their text changed from "+X Range" to "+X Beam Length"
Why: While we are in the revision process for all things Mods, some well reasoned suggestions made it aboard! 

FAQ:

How many Vitus Essence will each Mod cost from Arbitration Honors?

20 Vitus Essence Each. If you'd like to wait until the Sisters of Parvos Update launches, it will increase the Vitus Essence drop rate from 3% to 6% from the Drones. Note that for consistency the Vitus Essence will also disappear after 5 minutes if not picked like Steel Essence as previously announced. Heads up! 

 

Hi, here's my requests

Please unify the hard modes by combining vitus essence and steel essence into the same common resource.

second: Please adjust the "new" exilus pvp mods (the same ones that got migrated to nightwave? Those? Yeah, please reduce the total mod cost ot something like 7 or so. There's no reason

 

Compare, contrast:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Kinetic_Ricochet
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Focused_Acceleration

Normalize the S#&$ty 13 cost sometimes-it-isn't-an-exilus-but-should-be mods

[Alpha56]

About Galvanized scope and Galvanized crosshair and the buff when aiming for 12s.
Seriously who would aim for 12s ? 12 secondes !!!

When you aim you lose all mobility.

So in that time you can't run, you can't dodge, you can't loot, you can't use properly your skills, you can't prevent your companion from taking too much damage.

Even in a static mission like a defense i would never do that, at max i would aim for 3 to 4s.
This is BAD even without trying.

I would remove the aiming time totally, and go for something that should reward us, like headshot.

[(PSN)Chomsky_Honk_]

1 hour ago, Alpha56 said:

About Galvanized scope and Galvanized crosshair and the buff when aiming for 12s.
Seriously who would aim for 12s ? 12 secondes !!!

 

....

It activates a buff that only takes affect when aiming. 

The initial buff activation lasts 12 seconds. Make sense? 

[Thanzilla]

I previously posted a video of me killing 500+ SP grineer with a kuva bramma to illustrate how we do not need to double or quadruple our damage in order to do steel path (which is a challenge mode remember? not supposed to be easy). This time i will link a video of me killing 350 SP grineer with a kuva hind with almost the exact same setup ( different riven and i removed my glaive because for some reason a weird animation of me attacking with it played sometimes when i attacked with my hind, probably a bug). I still used no damage arcanes or damage buffing abilities and this time i even removed my kavat  in order to not get randomly crit-buffed by it.

I am posting these videos not because i need youtube views or whatever, i barely upload any videos. I am linking these videos because all manner of players use the forums and i would like them to see things from my perspective. 

Now the difference between the two videos and experiences of using these end-game weapons in a supposedly end-game mission that is also supposedly a challenge mode for the game are as follows:

1.Annoyance. Kuva bramma is infinitely easier to use and requires almost no aiming whatsoever. The kuva hind on the other hand, which is a single target weapon requires SO MUCH effort to use effectively in comparison. In this video i stood in a corner and had the enemies come to me while i tried to keep my crosshairs at the same position and only move left to right so i could get headshots without having to aim for every single one of the 350 enemies that i killed in 5 minutes (imagine trying to headshot 1 enemy every single second and how much effort that takes). I also used primed shred to even the playing field but i doubt if that helped much.

2.Damage. As proven by the numbers in my case using an aoe weapon gets way more kills than a single target, even if i tried my best to get as many headshots as i can in the second case. I suspect that the amount of time i spent reloading also kept my kill potential down but i had to use primed shred in order to get at least some semblance of aoe to try and keep things even with the aoe weapon. What's more, dealing with the acolyte is way easier with a big single target attack that ideally procs bleed (because of the 4 slash proc limit he has) making fast fire weapons almost useless against them and also rewarded me for choosing that kind of weapon with a death in the mission.

Now to the similarities:

1.Reward. I did a 5 minute steel path mission and got 2 steel essence out of it while killing a whooping 350-500 enemies (well i got a few more random drops than that, which i absolutely do not need when in this level of mission and in the case of the hind i didn't even get the essences because i died to the acolyte because of the single target playstyle and damage potential with slash vs them). If i did the mission normaly i would get like 800-1600 kuva (or less don't remember what rewards these missions give anymore) which is 1/4 or 1/2 of a riven reroll.

For that measly reward i don't think that the effort of me using a single target weapon and trying to headshot 1enemy/sec is equivalent. If the reward is that bad i would take the easiest tactic available to me.

2.Kill potential. Both single target guns and aoe guns have kill potential on SP. Bumping up the damage does nothing to bridge the "divide" between melee and guns. I suspect that in my case even a melee weapon built for combo multi (the mods you actually nerfed cause glaives are another story) still woudn't get me as many kills as the kuva bramma did. I think it would be closer to how the hind performed because i will actually have to reach the enemy to attack them first.

But anyway i guess this could be a third video to upload. Although i will have to actually make a combo multiplier build first since i am not using any build like that in my loadouts and i have been farming SP solo since forever. I also like my zenurik and i like using multiple weapons in a mission which i think i have proven that is already doable with a respectable performance even without the announced damage buffs.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2021-06-30 at 5:25 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Well if the guns are capable of killing then they don’t need the buffs.

Right, and they don't. Some youtubers and forum posters started whining about it because they don't kill fast enough FOR THEM. We all know that it only takes one Chihuahua's constant barking and crying to get enough attention from DE. Others notice that attention and begin to figure out how to whine for big damage numbers so they can create content about those numbers, then bash it later and finally readdress it in nostalgia (commonly called the "Triple In and the Out" in entertainment). It's all overdramatic fluff that made DE waste time on yet another unnecessary, player driven side bar.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, Thanzilla said:

I previously posted a video of me killing 500+ SP grineer with a kuva bramma to illustrate how we do not need to double or quadruple our damage in order to do steel path (which is a challenge mode remember? not supposed to be easy). This time i will link a video of me killing 350 SP grineer with a kuva hind with almost the exact same setup ( different riven and i removed my glaive because for some reason a weird animation of me attacking with it played sometimes when i attacked with my hind, probably a bug). I still used no damage arcanes o damage buffing abilities and this time i even removed my kavat  in order to not get randomly crit-buffed by it.

I am posting these videos not because i need youtube views or whatever, i barely upload any videos. I am linking these videos because all manner of players use the forums and i would like them to see things from my perspective. 

Now the difference between the two videos and experiences of using these end-game weapons in a supposedly end-game mission that is also supposedly a challenge mode for the game are as follows:

1.Annoyance. Kuva bramma is infinitely easier to use and requires almost no aiming whatsoever. The kuva hind on the other hand, which is a single target weapon requires SO MUCH effort to use effectively in comparison. In this video i stood in a corner and had the enemies come to me while i tried to keep my crosshairs at the same position and only move left to right so i could get headshots without having to aim for every single one of the 350 enemies that i killed in 5 minutes (imagine trying to headshot 1 enemy every single second and how much effort that takes). I also used primed shred to even the playing field but i doubt if that helped much.

2.Damage. As proven by the numbers in my case using an aoe weapon gets way more kills than a single target, even if i tried my best to get as many headshots as i can in the second case. I suspect that the amount of time i spent reloading also kept my kill potential down but i had to use primed shred in order to get at least some semblance of aoe to try and keep things even with the aoe weapon. What's more, dealing with the acolyte is way easier with a big single target attack that ideally procs bleed (because of the 4 slash proc limit he has) making fast fire weapons almost useless against them and also rewarded me for choosing that kind of weapon with a death in the mission.

Now to the similarities:

1.Reward. I did a 5 minute steel path mission and got 2 steel essence out of it while killing a whooping 350-500 enemies (well i got a few more random drops than that, which i absolutely do not need when in this level of mission and in the case of the hind i didn't even get the essences because i died to the acolyte because of the single target playstyle and damage potential with slash vs them). If i did the mission normaly i would get like 800-1600 kuva (or less don't remember what rewards these missions give anymore) which is 1/4 or 1/2 of a riven reroll.

For that measly reward i don't think that the effort of me using a single target weapon and trying to headshot 1enemy/sec is equivalent. If the reward is that bad i would take the easiest tactic available to me.

2.Kill potential. Both single target guns and aoe guns have kill potential on SP. Bumping up the damage does nothing to bridge the "divide" between melee and guns. I suspect that in my case even a melee weapon built for combo multi (the mods you actually nerfed cause glaives are another story) still woudn't get me as many kills as the kuva bramma did. I think it would be closer to how the hind performed because i will actually have to reach the enemy to attack them first.

But anyway i guess this could be a third video to upload. Although i will have to actually make a combo multiplier build first since i am not using any build like that in my loadouts and i have been farming SP solo since forever. I also like my zenurik and i like using multiple weapons in a mission which i think i have proven that is already doable with a respectable performance even without the announced damage buffs.

Nice! You properly modded your gun and you were properly rewarded with fast kills. But see, the issue isn't the modding. The issue was people wanting to see BIG DAMAGE NUMBERS and lied about the issue. New mods and processes means more content to create and more views.

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, Thanzilla said:

I previously posted a video of me killing 500+ SP grineer with a kuva bramma to illustrate how we do not need to double or quadruple our damage in order to do steel path (which is a challenge mode remember? not supposed to be easy). This time i will link a video of me killing 350 SP grineer with a kuva hind with almost the exact same setup ( different riven and i removed my glaive because for some reason a weird animation of me attacking with it played sometimes when i attacked with my hind, probably a bug). I still used no damage arcanes or damage buffing abilities and this time i even removed my kavat  in order to not get randomly crit-buffed by it

Now do it without Hunter Munitions, so you have the appropriate ~11% chance for a slash proc on any given bullet for the build shown, see how much more effort that demands.

HM is practically a cheat mod granting 'free' access to the most powerful proc against armoured targets regardless of status chance or distribution, therefore - especially since it's got no secondary counterpart - can't be fairly counted as part of the natural weapon balance of gun vs. melee.

[-Augustus-]

8 hours ago, Udoshi said:

Please unify the hard modes by combining vitus essence and steel essence into the same common resource.

Alternatively: Steel Path Arbitrations. All the same boosters and base levels/DR of SP, 2x all the rewards and drop rates of regular arbs. No resurrections, dead is dead, just like arbs were at the start.

[Thanzilla]

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Now do it without Hunter Munitions, so you have the appropriate ~11% chance for a slash proc on any given bullet for the build shown, see how much more effort that demands.

HM is practically a cheat mod granting 'free' access to the most powerful proc against armoured targets regardless of status chance or distribution, therefore - especially since it's got no secondary counterpart - can't be fairly counted as part of the natural weapon balance of gun vs. melee.

There is no point in doing that. I am trying to show the end-game perspective of someone who farms steel path solo. I have all the rivens and mods i need to do it with guns already. No need for more buffs as this thread announces.

I am not sure about secondaries since i do not use them much and also because i rarely play in a squad and even more rarely die in those situations. I only know about kuva nukor being really good.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Right, and they don't. Some youtubers and forum posters started whining about it because they don't kill fast enough FOR THEM. We all know that it only takes one Chihuahua's constant barking and crying to get enough attention from DE. Others notice that attention and begin to figure out how to whine for big damage numbers so they can create content about those numbers, then bash it later and finally readdress it in nostalgia (commonly called the "Triple In and the Out" in entertainment). It's all overdramatic fluff that made DE waste time on yet another unnecessary, player driven side bar.

Guns have been severely neglected for years now, and with the level of enemies in new content rising it is necessary for guns to get a damage boost to keep pace with that.

[SephirothWS]

6 hours ago, Thanzilla said:

This time i will link a video of me killing 350 SP grineer with a kuva hind with almost the exact same setup ( different riven

Let's see one where there are no rivens in the loadout at all.

[Thanzilla]

4 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Now do it without Hunter Munitions, so you have the appropriate ~11% chance for a slash proc on any given bullet for the build shown, see how much more effort that demands.

HM is practically a cheat mod granting 'free' access to the most powerful proc against armoured targets regardless of status chance or distribution, therefore - especially since it's got no secondary counterpart - can't be fairly counted as part of the natural weapon balance of gun vs. melee.

 

51 minutes ago, SephirothWS said:

Let's see one where there are no rivens in the loadout at all.

 

There is no point in doing this since i already said that it proves nothing. Steel path is a hard/challenge mode. You should use the best items you have/ game can provide in a challenge mode. Otherwise someone else will come along and move the goal post even further saying i should just use the starter weapons without mods. 

I did it with a secondary just for the challenge and because there is nothing to do anyways while waiting for the update. Again without any damage buffs, just pure weapon damage. Without a riven it wouldn't  be much different just a few kills less. 330 kills in 5 minutes which is comparable to kuva hind. Also, incoming epic Steel path acolyte vs Pox fight. Enjoy:

 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Guns have been severely neglected for years now, and with the level of enemies in new content rising it is necessary for guns to get a damage boost to keep pace with that.

I guess. My ability to kill SP enemies with them says otherwise but I'll take the new buffs with zero complaints.

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 hours ago, Thanzilla said:

There is no point in doing this since i already said that it proves nothing. Steel path is a hard/challenge mode. You should use the best items you have/ game can provide in a challenge mode. Otherwise someone else will come along and move the goal post even further saying i should just use the starter weapons without mods. 

It's perfectly logical given the main obstruction is egregious armour scaling to EHP that you should not be using something that circumvents that entirely (slash) unless it's natural to the weapons involved (actual status chance+distribution). If HM is carrying, then it's a signatory that an underlying problem exists.

That said, good on you for trying again. I think you're underselling the Pox riven you have equipped there, though. It's doubling the Multishot from what I can tell, which is huge for the mechanisms at play with that weapon, and unless Semlar's calc is out of date for the dispo, that's incredibly close to the best possible Multishot roll for a +2/-1 Pox riven. The other stat being Toxin isn't ground-breaking but is definitely useful since you needed to force-viral anyway (but the Scorch could be swapped for Pistol Pest to achieve that, if the riven wasn't handling it). I can't see any stat loss for the malus, so it's probably Zoom or something equally irrelevant. It's a high-tier Riven, for sure.

Note that I'm not saying you can't justify having Rivens in a build (unlike HM), but I think it's disingenuous to say that it's "not much of a difference" when that single slot is doubling your output in the most relevant way for the strategy.

[Sintag]

I'm still worried about the reliance on 'on-kill' effects for all these Galvanized Mods, though.  Mostly due to a few things:

• Would any kill by any weapon trigger the Galvanized Mod effects?
• Would status procs count as kills?
• Do stacks decay one at a time or all at once?

I'm also a fair bit worried about Arcane Merciless with the change to the timers.  Unless it decays stack-by-stack or two-by-two, then this change is just gonna push people towards fast-reloading AoE like the Bramma over anything else.

[Thanzilla]

12 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

It's perfectly logical given the main obstruction is egregious armour scaling to EHP that you should not be using something that circumvents that entirely (slash) unless it's natural to the weapons involved (actual status chance+distribution). If HM is carrying, then it's a signatory that an underlying problem exists.

That said, good on you for trying again. I think you're underselling the Pox riven you have equipped there, though. It's doubling the Multishot from what I can tell, which is huge for the mechanisms at play with that weapon, and unless Semlar's calc is out of date for the dispo, that's incredibly close to the best possible Multishot roll for a +2/-1 Pox riven. The other stat being Toxin isn't ground-breaking but is definitely useful since you needed to force-viral anyway (but the Scorch could be swapped for Pistol Pest to achieve that, if the riven wasn't handling it). I can't see any stat loss for the malus, so it's probably Zoom or something equally irrelevant. It's a high-tier Riven, for sure.

Note that I'm not saying you can't justify having Rivens in a build (unlike HM), but I think it's disingenuous to say that it's "not much of a difference" when that single slot is doubling your output in the most relevant way for the strategy.

I think you have a few things wrong here. This is not a thread about the scaling  and armour of enemies in steel path and this is not a thread about using weapons with rivens or without. I think it is obvious what this thread is about. What you are saying might or not might not be matters that are problematic, but they have nothing to do with the current issue this workshop tries to solve. (which from my understanding is how guns are not performing well in SP while in fact they do as i have proven imo)

The one thing you are probably right is that a 4 dispo riven does make a greater difference than i said it does.

PS: Also the pox riven is in fact multishot and toxin with -corpus which is really bad. The ideal would be multishot damage heat and minus something. You don't need many viral procs.