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The Arsenal Divide: Changes & Follow Ups


[DE]Rebecca

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With all due respect DE

You feel the need to nerf melee just to sell gun usage and the buffed ranged weapons. This show that even you are uncertain in your solution and you feel that without *forcing* it the desired effect wouldnt happen. We all want better guns. We all support the idea to make them more useful. But apart from som hardcore casuals who experience only a select and narrow spectrum of this magnificent game NO SANE PLAYER want even more nerfs. POINTLESS nerfs.

Lets see what will happen 100% surely with this nerfs in motion:

NERFS

Every slow melee weapons and every non red crit viable melee weapons will be weakened greatly - some of them will turn to be simply undesired but some of them will become entirely useless. What we have at the moment is not perfect but massively better that will come if you continue on this road. The next thing will be that the people would start to migrate to melee weapons which are less effected and still offer FUN and EFFICIENCY at higher lvls and greater difficulties. Hell - most of the current melee weapons dont cut it in Steel Path. You will effectively narrow the circle even more. THEN the remaining fun and effective wepons will have their Riven Disposition aggressively lowered thus weakening them even further - losing the fun factor. Player will have again a painful thorn in their side and a bad taste in their mouth and you will continue to loose players. I do really really hope that this mechanics - silent chain nerf - arent planned by you intentionally. This could hurt the already weakened trust. I hope and wish that this isnt the case.

Maybe you dont realize how important factor is which kind of players you are losing. There will be always (to a point) new "touch and go" players. Who dont really know - will never know - the game doesnt spend enough time to experience the whole package. They wont be affected your changes because they dont care. They never will. And thoose guys wont buy platinmum regulary they dont buy all the cosmetic stuff and they  wont support you in your time of need.

Condition Overload nerf: after the initial outrage ppl will learn to live with it. Most likely it will vanish from most builds entirely. This change would nullify the ranged melee support concept but still if you are really set in your thinking then go for it. Of course it would be more clearer and straightforward to delete the mod itself. You know in a complex system some changes have far bigger consequences than might appear at first.

Berserker and Blood Rush nerfs

For my favourite weapon it wouldne mean much. For the weapons i LOVE and LIKE to play - outside META weapons - this will be a disaster. Already slow weapons will be hit very very hard. The loss will be multiplicative with the other nerfs heavyly.

So in short: the weapons you wanted to tone down wont be affected too much (it will still hurt) but the already struggling ones will go down entirely,

THIS IS A VERY BAD THING what SHOULDNT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.

Guns are underused because they

1) not good enough

2) doesnt have enough synergy or doesnt have working synergies at all

3) different factors whoose arent even touched in the "buff"

FLAWED ranged weapon mechanics wont be better if you nerf alternatives. The bad mechanics should be made viable.

 

BUFFS

Having better damage with guns is part of any solution. I do think its not the most important part. The now planned changes arent bad - sure thy need polish - but not enough. They are too short on duration AND have the famous and problematic bug ridden "on kill" prequsite.

FIRST STEP: make "on kill" to on hit and at least tripple the durations.

We all want to BUFF the multiplayer side as well. If you original idea goes live it would cause a lot of bad blood between the players - stealing kills and such. This will ruin the multiplayer experience more than you think.

Beside dependable damage buffs guns need ammo and reload buffs, Theese are equally - if not more important - buffs than damage. What works in the starchart doesnt work in a more difficult situation period. The mods we have to increase ammo count and/or reaload should be a buff - if someone feels they need the extra - not mandatory. Because if thoose mods are used then truly mandatory mods will be left out and that will make the gun itself weaker.

Guns not only need more ammo in magazines, more maximum ammo and faster reload but they need them radical. Raising 20 bullet to 25 wont cut it.

Current setup will do little to ordinary guns - even potentially end game ones - but strengthen AOE guns almost exclusively. Which is bad. The solution: this time please dont nerf the AOE ones but try to find ways to support the other types.

Maybe every non AOE gun should have built in punchtrough and multishot and the mods could increase it even further - NOTICEABLY.

In general: every ranged weapon should have damage, range, target cont increase, more ammo in magazine and faster reload.

Preferably THIS SHOULD BE REACHED OVERALL and not trough mods but with implementing a system like combo counter. The galvanized mods and the new arcanes should build on top of this and strengthen different ranged playstyles.  

 

I sincerely hope that you will get the positive side of this message. I (and most of the other players as well) want to be constructive. Thousands hours of playtime wont make anyone automatically right or infallible but certainly gives perspective and experience that. This experience should be used as an asset and not only in minor things.

Thanks for your time.

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I've tried my absolute best to use a nikana prime and kill more than i can kill with a bramma but i couldn't. I got like 360-430 kills in 5minutes. I also thought of buying a 2500 plat riven to try and get close to the bramma performance but decided against it since i do not enjoy these kinds of builds.

So instead i would like to showcase what actually needs nerfing because i've already showed in videos that both guns and combo weapons can get 350-500 kills in 5 minutes in a SP mission which is i think acceptable for a challenging end game mode which SP is supposed to be.

Here is what you should have actually nerfed but didn't since you left the explosion damage and forced slash proc the same. I present to you 900 kills in 5 minutes Glaive prime (no dmg buffs again). Enjoy:

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Thanzilla said:

I've tried my absolute best to use a nikana prime and kill more than i can kill with a bramma but i couldn't. I got like 360-430 kills in 5minutes. I also thought of buying a 2500 plat riven to try and get close to the bramma performance but decided against it since i do not enjoy these kinds of builds.

So instead i would like to showcase what actually needs nerfing because i've already showed in videos that both guns and combo weapons can get 350-500 kills in 5 minutes in a SP mission which is i think acceptable for a challenging end game mode which SP is supposed to be.

Here is what you should have actually nerfed but didn't since you left the explosion damage and forced slash proc the same. I present to you 900 kills in 5 minutes Glaive prime (no dmg buffs again). Enjoy:

 

 

 

I do think we should consider the system not certain weapons.

Bramma is (was) the only ranged weapon that was an acceptable high end gun.

Forget 5 min plays. Ranged weapons are not sustainable in higher difficulties and definitely not fun.

No one is forcing you to use the best setups. Censor yourself if you feel the need but dont spoil the opportunity of a long awaited BUFF. Nothing should be nerfed. At least not first. First a reliable, fun gunfight should be estabilshed.

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7 minutes ago, csaszar said:

I do think we should consider the system not certain weapons.

Bramma is (was) the only ranged weapon that was an acceptable high end gun.

Forget 5 min plays. Ranged weapons are not sustainable in higher difficulties and definitely not fun.

No one is forcing you to use the best setups. Censor yourself if you feel the need but dont spoil the opportunity of a long awaited BUFF. Nothing should be nerfed. At least not first. First a reliable, fun gunfight should be estabilshed.

Please explain to me because i don't get it. Why was this buff long awaited? What do you mean with ranged weapons not being sustainable in higher difficulties?

I am against these generic damage increases because they will leave single target guns in the dust again. I've made suggestions that aren't generic damage buffs that help every kind of weapon feel fun (with explosions mainly and status proliferation). I do consider the whole system. I am just saying that generic damage buffs are unneeded and i have proven that with video evidence. The whole "divide" is in the 100 kills range except for a few outliers.

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43 minutes ago, csaszar said:

Read what i have wrote 2 posts up.

I've read it and it doesn't answer much. Why was this buff long awaited? Are you saying that you were waiting for Steel path to be beatable with the worst weapons possible? I was under the impression that this was the challenge mode of warframe. New game+ etc. Was i wrong?

What do you mean with ranged weapons not being sustainable in higher difficulties? I've given plenty of examples of them being exactly that, even pox that has only 24 total ammo count and on steel path no less.

You start your post with saying that nerfs bad cause they limit diversity. I disagree. The right kind of nerfs are healthy for the game. Glaive prime is an abomination. The rest are comparable. Some are better than others but there being a small spectrum of performance difference is desirable to make players think that there is progression in their arsenal.

Then you say that the damage buffs need to be constant and that there should be ammo and reload buffs as well. I disagree. I kill more than 1 unit/second in a regular SP survival with several types of weapons, there is no need to buff the damage of my guns.

Maybe you should read what i posted in the previous pages instead though. I really do not think that the nerfs that melee got did anything in the grand scheme of things. Aoe guns will now be the new melee weapons and that's it. In that sense i agree with you. But imo the only thing that needed to be done was to nerf the actual outliers (glaive prime) and add new functionality to underused weapons (like pseudo aoe for single target weapons etc). Everything else is just power creep.

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What about the arcanes from arbitration that already exist? They are pretty useless, being able to equip them only on warframe slot arcane. There are a lot better arcanes than those. Arbitration arcane should be placeable in their own Arbitration slot on warframe/ weapon/ mele/ companion(yes, there is one for companion and no way somebody would put that on warframe). The new arcane slot would be unlocked with vitus essence. 

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Actually it would be a pretty good idea to use the operator/tenno schools to give passively max ammo/magazine size/reload speed bonuses.

 

Its not a total rebalance could be done quickly and would add to the ranged combat immensly. Please consider.

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Please reduce the drain of Galvanized Acceleration from 12 to 10 mod capacity to follow the consistency of Weapon Exilus Mods as per Update 26: The Old Blood:

Quote

Drain Reductions (at maximum rank):

  • Lock and Load from 13 to 9
  • Tactical Reload from 13 to 9
  • Eject Magazine from 13 to 9
  • Vile Precision from 11 to 9
  • Cautious Shot from 12 to 10
  • Rifle Ammo Mutation from 9 to 7
  • Primed Rifle Ammo Mutation from 14 to 10
  • Shotgun Ammo Mutation from 9 to 7
  • Primed Shotgun Ammo Mutation from 14 to 10
  • Arrow Mutation from 9 to 7
  • Pistol Ammo Mutation from 9 to 7
  • Primed Pistol Ammo Mutation from 14 to 10
  • Sniper Ammo Mutation from 9 to 7

Without a way to increase mod capacity on Primary and Secondary weapons like Stance Mods, Aura Mods, or the Rank 40 mechanic, builds have become incredibly tight, even with every slot polarized. This is due to Exilus Slots, Riven Mods, Amalgam Mods, several Primed Mods, and now Galvanized Mods making their way into Warframe. This was acknowledged in The Old Blood as well:

Quote

The conversation of tight capacity already exists without the addition of the Exilus Weapon Mod Slot, so we’re making these Slots default Polarities, meaning all Exilus Weapon Mods are - (Naramon) or V (Madurai) Polarity. 

This was a great start, but mod drain has only increased since then meaning it has only gotten more strict. Players around the Warframe Forums have already linked countless builds with 0 remaining capacity without Galvanized Mods.

Please recognize that while most of your Galvanized Mod drain costs are appropriate, Galvanized Acceleration still remains an outlier as all other Exilus Mods do not exceed 10 mod drain.

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On 2021-07-03 at 4:21 AM, csaszar said:

With all due respect DE

You feel the need to nerf melee just to sell gun usage and the buffed ranged weapons. This show that even you are uncertain in your solution and you feel that without *forcing* it the desired effect wouldnt happen. We all want better guns. We all support the idea to make them more useful. But apart from som hardcore casuals who experience only a select and narrow spectrum of this magnificent game NO SANE PLAYER want even more nerfs. POINTLESS nerfs.

Lets see what will happen 100% surely with this nerfs in motion:

NERFS

Every slow melee weapons and every non red crit viable melee weapons will be weakened greatly - some of them will turn to be simply undesired but some of them will become entirely useless. What we have at the moment is not perfect but massively better that will come if you continue on this road. The next thing will be that the people would start to migrate to melee weapons which are less effected and still offer FUN and EFFICIENCY at higher lvls and greater difficulties. Hell - most of the current melee weapons dont cut it in Steel Path. You will effectively narrow the circle even more. THEN the remaining fun and effective wepons will have their Riven Disposition aggressively lowered thus weakening them even further - losing the fun factor. Player will have again a painful thorn in their side and a bad taste in their mouth and you will continue to loose players. I do really really hope that this mechanics - silent chain nerf - arent planned by you intentionally. This could hurt the already weakened trust. I hope and wish that this isnt the case.

Maybe you dont realize how important factor is which kind of players you are losing. There will be always (to a point) new "touch and go" players. Who dont really know - will never know - the game doesnt spend enough time to experience the whole package. They wont be affected your changes because they dont care. They never will. And thoose guys wont buy platinmum regulary they dont buy all the cosmetic stuff and they  wont support you in your time of need.

Condition Overload nerf: after the initial outrage ppl will learn to live with it. Most likely it will vanish from most builds entirely. This change would nullify the ranged melee support concept but still if you are really set in your thinking then go for it. Of course it would be more clearer and straightforward to delete the mod itself. You know in a complex system some changes have far bigger consequences than might appear at first.

Berserker and Blood Rush nerfs

For my favourite weapon it wouldne mean much. For the weapons i LOVE and LIKE to play - outside META weapons - this will be a disaster. Already slow weapons will be hit very very hard. The loss will be multiplicative with the other nerfs heavyly.

So in short: the weapons you wanted to tone down wont be affected too much (it will still hurt) but the already struggling ones will go down entirely,

THIS IS A VERY BAD THING what SHOULDNT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.

Guns are underused because they

1) not good enough

2) doesnt have enough synergy or doesnt have working synergies at all

3) different factors whoose arent even touched in the "buff"

FLAWED ranged weapon mechanics wont be better if you nerf alternatives. The bad mechanics should be made viable.

 

BUFFS

Having better damage with guns is part of any solution. I do think its not the most important part. The now planned changes arent bad - sure thy need polish - but not enough. They are too short on duration AND have the famous and problematic bug ridden "on kill" prequsite.

FIRST STEP: make "on kill" to on hit and at least tripple the durations.

We all want to BUFF the multiplayer side as well. If you original idea goes live it would cause a lot of bad blood between the players - stealing kills and such. This will ruin the multiplayer experience more than you think.

Beside dependable damage buffs guns need ammo and reload buffs, Theese are equally - if not more important - buffs than damage. What works in the starchart doesnt work in a more difficult situation period. The mods we have to increase ammo count and/or reaload should be a buff - if someone feels they need the extra - not mandatory. Because if thoose mods are used then truly mandatory mods will be left out and that will make the gun itself weaker.

Guns not only need more ammo in magazines, more maximum ammo and faster reload but they need them radical. Raising 20 bullet to 25 wont cut it.

Current setup will do little to ordinary guns - even potentially end game ones - but strengthen AOE guns almost exclusively. Which is bad. The solution: this time please dont nerf the AOE ones but try to find ways to support the other types.

Maybe every non AOE gun should have built in punchtrough and multishot and the mods could increase it even further - NOTICEABLY.

In general: every ranged weapon should have damage, range, target cont increase, more ammo in magazine and faster reload.

Preferably THIS SHOULD BE REACHED OVERALL and not trough mods but with implementing a system like combo counter. The galvanized mods and the new arcanes should build on top of this and strengthen different ranged playstyles.  

 

I sincerely hope that you will get the positive side of this message. I (and most of the other players as well) want to be constructive. Thousands hours of playtime wont make anyone automatically right or infallible but certainly gives perspective and experience that. This experience should be used as an asset and not only in minor things.

Thanks for your time.

These nerfs are not pointless and saying so is rather disingenuous. Berserker being multiplicative to other attack speed modifiers is an oversight that was long overdue for fixing. Condition Overload and Blood Rush don't need to completely overshadow other Critical Chance or Base Damage mods to be effective. You will still see both used. Balancing the modding for melee also creates stronger gear progression. The game is shallow, unhealthy, and worse when early weapons in the game can blow through the higher level missions of the game. That means those same mods applied to the better weapons of the game just create brainless combat. I see nothing wrong with addressing some of the elephants in the room for mods and create a stronger path for gear progression.

Not every weapon should be viable. Attempting to achieve that has damaged combat in Warframe and removed meaning or choice behind your equipment as nothing really matters when you can take whatever you want. Lots of players call this freedom, but I just see it as devaluing equipment across the game and homogenizing builds and loadouts to feel too similar.

The reasons most primary and secondary don't compete to what the target audience of the game uses is because they lack AoE and range. There are so many weapons out there that are not melee that do more than enough damage and hold their own. This problem is manufactured by people who don't want to admit that they want a mindless AoE fiesta instead of a game where gear choice has impact on your mission and requires some thought before slapping on a cookie cutter build.

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On 2021-07-02 at 12:26 AM, Cash4Cookies said:

because 1 of them offers me 233 possible missions i can do at any time for any duration, while the other one gives me 1 mission i can run per hour

At the start of SP you don't have access to all 200+ nodes either, and doing them in order for sure will take way more than one hour.

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Combo melee will lose 550% critical hit chance tomorrow (+Berserker +33% of CO). So it's pretty much dead. Guns on the other hand receive more base damage, crit, and multishot.

This means people will use heavy attacks for high level targets and bosses (better get that Redeemer Riven now), and AoE guns for everything else.

Why not single target guns? They can already kill anything in under 1 second, more damage doesn't help them - and they won't even be more effective against bosses either, since they already reach the (kinda low) DPS-cap without those buffs.

Feel free to disagree, you'll be wrong though.

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3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Combo melee will lose 550% critical hit chance tomorrow (+Berserker +33% of CO). So it's pretty much dead. Guns on the other hand receive more base damage, crit, and multishot.

You're losing the Deconstructor statstick, guess that means you can't equip Gladiator mods on anything I guess.
If I was to point out that you can still equip Gladiator mod on your melee and Warframe I'd be wrong though, since that's disagreeing with you.

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2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

If I was to point out that you can still equip Gladiator mod on your melee and Warframe I'd be wrong though, since that's disagreeing with you.

You are aware that people already use mods on their melee weapon, so you'd have to replace those with your Gladiator mods, right?!

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You should play the game before throwing nonsense like 'dead', these changes dont make a difference even for lvl150 SteelPath - melee is that OP.

But on the 'Brama' part yeah - already OP AoE weapons are getting all the huge buffs as well and will dominate the game even more.

DE needs to balance weapons individually.

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vor 10 Minuten schrieb Traumtulpe:

Combo melee will lose 550% critical hit chance tomorrow (+Berserker +33% of CO). So it's pretty much dead. Guns on the other hand receive more base damage, crit, and multishot.

This means people will use heavy attacks for high level targets and bosses (better get that Redeemer Riven now), and AoE guns for everything else.

Why not single target guns? They can already kill anything in under 1 second, more damage doesn't help them - and they won't even be more effective against bosses either, since they already reach the (kinda low) DPS-cap without those buffs.

Feel free to disagree, you'll be wrong though.

not quite. bramma was deliberately nerfed into the bottomless very embarrassingly and now it is a weapon for trolls and clowns. or why do you need garbage mele bow, where you constantly watch out for the ammo?!?!?!?!?!
devs apparently want to sell new weapons. nobody except devs knows the stats. i can well imagine that something super rare there would perform much better than kuva nukor. devs want maximum platinum sales. and that's what the game is all about ..........

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On 2021-07-05 at 8:40 AM, mrgudveseli said:

At the start of SP you don't have access to all 200+ nodes either, and doing them in order for sure will take way more than one hour.

At the start of Steel Path you have access to the first couple of nodes on Earth.  One of which is an Exterminate, and another is a simple Defense or Survival, at basically the lowest level possible for Steel Path.  If I cared about this system, those are probably the ones I'd run, because I know I can solo them.  I can run it relatively quickly (for me, I'm sure many people are far more l33t than I am) and I can run it as often as I can stand.  I get six revives per mission, and therefore am unlikely to fail it completely.

Meanwhile, Arbitrations offer one mission per hour.  I get no choice in what mission, or tileset, or versus which faction.  Oh, it's a Defection.  Well, that's this hour down the toilet, that mission has the occasional game-breaking glitch in NORMAL mode.  Oh, and now it's Infested Salvage, that is SO fun.  And now it's Lua Spy, a mission I love so much that I've *technically* never actually finished it.  (I asked in recruit chat and found someone to do it for me, and then NEVER went there again.)

Or pick any other combination of tilesets, mission types and enemy factions that just SUCK to play against.  Throw in all the *normal* drawbacks of Arbitration, such as the entire "screw you for playing solo" design, the fact that if the host gets downed and quits the Host Migration is reasonably likely to at least split the team if not just flat out screw everyone out of both the rewards *and* the attempt for that hour, or the part where the revive mechanic is kind of possible to abuse for both sides.  "No, you suck, I'm not going to revive you."  "Hah hah, I'm dead but now you all get stuck with debuff tokens you can't refuse or easily avoid until I quit or you revive me... and I'll just let myself die again!  Sucks to be you guys!"  (And yes, I've seen both behaviors.)

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...
Quote

If you'd like to wait until the Sisters of Parvos Update launches, it will increase the Vitus Essence drop rate from 3% to 6% from the Drones.

Although you have said that the drop chance of the incoming update has increased, I can state that the vitus essence, which has fallen much more in the past, is almost not dropped now. Although you state that you have doubled the rate, after 1 hour and 30 minutes, the number of vitus essence collected together with the resource booster and resource drop booster and smeeta kavat cannot exceed 30. The minimum number of killed drones is 160. Before the update, we can obtain a minimum of 150-200 vitus essence in 1 hour and 30 minutes, but we are not happy to see 30 now. I'm having a really hard time understanding how the drop rate doubled.

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