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The Arsenal Divide: Changes & Follow Ups


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22 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Because of that, i guess people simply stops bothering with arbitrations quickly and now you're just trying to push everyone towards an underplayed mode.

This is the sad truth.

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16 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cash201293 said:

I don’t understand why some players want the mods we need to kill enemies in steel path to be earned in steel path. Please make it make sense to me. 

 

In Steel Path you can chose any mission type, any time, with a bunch of different builds. It may be difficult, subjectively, but certain things can make it easier, including these new mods and Arcanes. I take unoptimised gear into Steel Path a lot, to experiment and mess around with (usually solo, I take in actual decent builds if I play in group/pub). I have Arcane Guardian and Energise though, played the game a lot etc and know my win conditions well, so I always succeed. Plus if I mess up, I just revive myself. 

Plus its just like the normal Starchart. MR 2 new player doesn't have access to all the mods and weapons a MR 8 player who has completed the starchart. The act of progressing through the Starchart gives them the experience and tools to make the Starchart easier. If we wanted to... we could use rhetoric to say... "Wait DE.. you are giving us the tools that make starchart easier in the starchart... yeah real smart" but only if you phrase it that way... otherwise, it sounds pretty normal. Also yes its not the same either, normal star chart, Eidolons, Steel Path are different, as far as gameplay loops, reward tables, and the difficulty curves with or without certain items, and this is where subjective preferences can enter. So I am definitely not claiming "its the same" each presents different challenges and can be critiqued on that basis.

Alternatively... I revive people all the time in Steel Path, its pretty easy to, even if I am playing a really squishy Warframe, that relies on mobility to stay alive... I just pop into Operator. In Arbitrations though? Ehh, mixed results, because sometimes the Arbitration drones act wonky, I have to worry about the mission objective as well. Don't get me wrong, Arbitrations can be way way easier than Steel Path, you get an Infested Survival, have a group that actually works together and finds a good room to stay in... but you get less choices in mission type. Its only every hour, the rewards may be diluted, if you die once, its a much bigger deal, or if you play solo its over, so you can't really take more risky squishy builds where you can afford an occasional revive or two... 

Plus a lot of these mods exist to make SP easier for certain weapons, so you can guess that a lot of people who want these mods are going to want to do Steel Path. Sure it could be a bit difficult initially, but we are cutting our teeth on the content and finding it easier with both experience and the drops/rewards. 

Hope that helps. I personally find more people playing Steel Path than Arbitrations, I never realised the latter was so popular with people. 

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The combo duration stat on Dex arcanes is super cool.  I was pure merciless all the way but that arcane could open up all kinds of thing.  AKA dropping Naramon and using Madurai lol.   

Arbitrations to me are like way harder.   Jesus I just did 20 waves defense in Void in SP the other day with a spectrorage Gara,  no armor/no DR.  Didnt die once to my surprise.   Grinding out vitus essense is cruel and unusual punishment.   I have only done enough arbitrations to earn ONE grendel key,  which I shared with a squad who all had different keys to get Grendel when he dropped.   I have not bothered going back to get any other rewards.   

So Arbi will just be host for galvanied mods??   I dont need 21 of each like arcanes....   I dont need all of them...   how much essense they gonna cost??

----------------------

4-6 seconds on merciless seems insanely short if you want people using guns.  3 other people all killing stuff is going to lead to big gaps between kills.  

It would definately encourage this mixed combat philosphy if you made one common hit-streak meter.  Make guns build up the meter just the same as melee.  I always noticed if I switched to guns after building up my x12 combo they would crit like crazy.  Problem is they could not sustain my combo.   

Besides build up combo with either gun or melee.   To encourage mixed combat you could also add a switch bonus.  if you switch weapons it gives a huge delay or pause to combo degradation/loss (could add degredation aka naramon power spike) for like 4-6 seconds.

I get my combo up to x3 with melee and then i switch and kill a guy with a gun and bump my combo to x4,  but I also get a switch bonus that pauses the hit-streak meter for 4-6 seconds before it starts the countdown for the combo duration.

How does DE envision combo's in this new combat system.   Should combo go up and then instant fade or should we be keeping x12 up the entire mission??   With all these different mods and conditions for combo duration, it doesnt seem like you have a very clear vision for combat.  

It seems like guns are getting tiny combo duration but its seperate from melee combo duration.  Does NOT sound cohesive and more like they will compete with one another and using one will make the other one drop off completely.  

 

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3 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Do you worry that all this emphasis on buff stacks will incentivize players to use only a single weapon during missions to avoid losing the stacks? For example, if I build up my stacks on the primary weapon I'm unlikely to use secondary or melee since I'm afraid of losing primary stacks. 

Personally, I would prefer a system that incentivizes players to use the entire arsenal and mix it up a lot during missions, keeping the combat fresh throughout instead of just repeating the same actions over and over.

This is exactly why we should remove the primary secondary melee slots and replace that with slot 1 slot 2 slot 3 and let us pick any 3 weapons we want. Opens up endless possibilities and combos. 

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Tenno!

 

3) Galvanized Mod Acquisition:

Moved all Galvanized Mods to Arbitrations from Steel Path. 

Why: This change is rooted in the depth of the new items we’re putting in Steel Path with this Update, and the hope some players had about being able to earn the Galvanized Mods before they even arrived on the Steel Path. Since Arbitrations also require a completed Star Chart, but are a step up in difficulty from that base Star Chart, we thought (and so did many of you) that they’d be a good stepping stone for earning some of the new Upgrades! 

 

 

I'm sure someone likes this change.  Speaking only for myself, this moves the new mods from being "part of a system I don't like but might interact with" into "part of a system I actively despise and refuse to use."  So... good to know that the new mods are now less than useless for me since I'll never see a single one of them.

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3 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

So... good to know that the new mods are now less than useless for me since I'll never see a single one of them

Or you can play a gamemode that you like and get enough items to trade them for enough plat to buy the mods you want. Still a way

Edited by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim
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So let's see what farming vitus essence has been like for me in the last 3 hours:

  • Mission 1: My team left after 15 waves of defense since 2 of them died. Only got 7 vitus essence.
  • Mission 2: The rest of my team left after 5 waves of defense. I stayed solo to wave 30. Didn't get a single vitus essence drop the entire time.
  • Mission 3: The rest of my team left at the 7 minute mark. Host migration caused enemy spawns to drop well below the rate of a single player. None of them could be alerted by me for some reason so I had to hunt across the entire map for the 5 or 6 enemies that were spawned in at a time. I left after 40 minutes. Only got 14 vitus essence.

If these mods are going to be exclusive to the arbitrations store, I'm just going to buy them from someone else for plat. I'm not interested in touching arbitrations again until serious changes are made to the vitus essence drop rate. I would happily farm these mods from the steel path store, even if they were 50 steel essence each. At least in Steel Path I can farm more than 1 mission an hour. And if they were put back in the steel path store at least then I'd have something to buy from Teshin that isn't kuva and a single riven once a week.

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Just now, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Or you can play a gamemode that you like and get enough items to trade them for enough plat to buy the mods you want. Theres always that beautiful option m8

I'm not interested in playing Arbitrations, and I'm LESS interested in paying someone else to play it.  The trading system in Warframe is garbage, and I'm not spending my own money to buy these mods.

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Just now, EdDiesel said:

The arcanes will still drop in SP from acolytes. Its the mods that moved from Teshins store to Arbi store which allows players to gear up through arbis before heading into SP if they want to work on progressing their guns prior with the new mods to get them up to par.

 

Yeah I meant the mods not arcanes. My bad. 

I understand the theory, in the change, I just don't think in practice this actually works that well. Again, anecdotal and my own personal experiences, but I rarely see many people in Arbitrations, except for the type that also can do Steel Path. Maybe this change will send an influx of players into Arbitrations, but a lot of Warframe acquaintances/randoms I talk to, only do Arbitrations if they are Survival, they get the buff on a Warframe they use, or they want Adaptation. Otherwise its too finicky, lack of mission choice, Drone mechanics, the death mechanic so on. 

Personally, I like Arbitrations, but I also like a lot of stuff thats generally unpopular, so either way I benefit. I may be underestimating how difficult people find initial Steel Path though, but with the choice in missions, (your Exterminations and Captures on early planets like Earth) whenever you want, not limited to a single quest that rolls every hour, that sometimes can have a tricky fail condition... 4 or 5 deaths versus 1 (which is game over in solo mode), then the Arbitration Drone factor, (you have to consider and have a weapon for that), I don't know... I feel like Arbitrations was a lot of peoples arbitrary suggestion because its not Steel Path, was just surface level knee jerk type reaction. "You put the reward to do the thing in the thing that we need the reward for? Think DE think!" 

Plus the reward dilutions. Unless we get them from Vitus Essence, in which case... great, because I have way more Vitus Essence than SE. I am not personally bothered too much either way.

 

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8 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

I'm not interested in playing Arbitrations, and I'm LESS interested in paying someone else to play it.  The trading system in Warframe is garbage, and I'm not spending my own money to buy these mods.

I didnt say play arbitration or use real money. I said farm sellable things, things you dont use but some else would, from a gamemode that you like.

Its nearly the same thing as DE adding the new mods to a gamemode that you like except with the step of trading. No ones playing anything they dislike in this scenario

 

As for the trade system being bad idk what you mean. Theres different ways to make a trade

Edited by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim
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1 hour ago, superssbs said:

If really thinkng about letting players to have the new mods not too easy not too hard, why not developing a new mission method lol

if they realy wanted not too easy not to hard junctions would be a great option lol
cuz you get them while progressing

 

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57 minutes ago, -JT-_-R3W1ND said:

I love how most of ppl are ignoring this. I'm not sure 12 is ok enough, but 16 is just memeing. What was "the test" resulting in this?


Why you calculating this as "total redused by 2". Show me please the build using ALL of this same time. Just curious, what is not the part of the game — rivens, or exilus mods.

 

The primary and shotgun multishot mods have 15 cost. If you put them on a polarity slot they are reduce to 8 due to rounding. The galvanize mod being 16 won't make a difference because it will also be reduced to 8.

The other galvanize mods will be reduced to 6 once put on a polarized slot. I tested "extreme" builds on Primary, Shotgun and Secondary and they all fit even while using riven, Primed mods AND Exilus. It will require forma on everything, but if you don't have a riven and forget the exilus then it requires less.

Primary example with costs once you put forma.

Galvanized Scope (6)

Galvanized Aptitude (6)

Serration (7)

Galvanized Chamber (8)

Primed Cryo Rounds (8)

Point Strike (5)

Vital Sense (5)

Riven (9)

Stabilizer (5)

Total mod cost: 59 using 9 forma

And this is going all out, if you don't have a riven or forget the exilus it is less forma.

 

Shotgun example:

Primed Point Blank (7)

Primed Ravage (7)

Blunderbluss (5)

Galvanized Savvy (6)

Galvanized Hell (8)

Primed Chilling Grasp (8)

Toxic barrage (4)

Riven (9)

Galvanized Acceleration (6)

total mod cost: 60

Secondary example

Hornet Strike (7)

Primed Pistol Gambit (6)

Primed Target Cracker (7)

Galvanized Shot (6) 

Galvanized Crosshair (6)

Galvanized Diffusion (7)

Primed Heated Charge (8) 

Riven (9)

ammo mutation (4) (Note: The only compromise here is if you want a 9 cost mod like Steady hands, which would cost 5 once polarized. In this case change Primed Heated Charge for the normal version or use a rank 8 Primed Heated Charge)

total cost:  60 (And this is using exilus, 3 galvanized mods, 3 primed mods and riven)

Edited by HolySeraphin
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If Arbitration's reward table is gonna be flooded with more rewards... can we remove some of them?

Personally I feel Seeding Step Ephemera Blueprint is the most useless reward and drives me insane every time I land on it. Just throw that in the Arby shop.

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

1) Galvanized Mod Acquisition:

Moved all Galvanized Mods to Arbitrations from Steel Path. 

Why: This change is rooted in the depth of the new items we’re putting in Steel Path with this Update, and the hope some players had about being able to earn the Galvanized Mods before they even arrived on the Steel Path. Since Arbitrations also require a completed Star Chart, but are a step up in difficulty from that base Star Chart, we thought (and so did many of you) that they’d be a good stepping stone for earning some of the new Upgrades! 

 

Uuuuurgh... WHY?

I absolutely HATE Arbitrations! Why can't it be acquired from BOTH Arbitrations and Steel Path?

 

Now, about that "on kill" requirement... you realize that such a requirement goes OPPOSITE of what it would try and help, yes? Because, you are saying the items are supposed to help with Steel Path and similar tough content. Yet:

On kill on regular missions = More overkill on easy content. It basicly makes easy missions easier. This is obviously not the intention, right?

On kill on Steel Path = Hard to keep up when fighting very tanky mobs, thus not beneficial to the very place it is intended to help out on! It's particularly useless on bosses and heavy units, the epitome of enemies were you'd need help with damage output! Thus = On kill = Useless for helping on Steel Path, completely opposite of the intention!

Effects like on headshot (not killing headshots), on crit, on status, on hit (chancebased) - All of these would be MUCH more useful on Steel Path while being harder to keep up on regular missions (especially if it's they are redistributed with more stacks and smaller gains per stack).

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2 minutes ago, DaMasque said:

If Arbitration's reward table is gonna be flooded with more rewards... can we remove some of them?

Personally I feel Seeding Step Ephemera Blueprint is the most useless reward and drives me insane every time I land on it. Just throw that in the Arby shop.

I feel this pain. If not add it to the shop the game needs a reroll function to help stop player from getting dupes of this kind

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Just now, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I didnt say play arbitration or use real money. I said farm sellable things, things you dont use but some else would, from a gamemode that you like.

Its nearly the same thing as DE adding the new mods to a gamemode that you like except with the step of trading. On a plus side, you get to play the gamemode that you like and that person who likes arbitration and has a mod to trade with you gets to do something they like.

 

As for the trade system being bad idk what you mean. Theres different ways to make a trade

If the mods were part of Steel Path, then I could PLAY a mission type I like, using Warframes that I like, and weapons that I like.  And I could play those missions (lower level Exterminates, probably) as OFTEN as I can stand to get the mods and be done with it.  If it's in Abitrations, I don't get to choose what Warframe - the stupid Drones mean a ton aren't viable because powers aren't dependable for stopping the high-level (and badly balanced) enemies from one-shotting you.  Self-revive isn't a thing in Arbitrations.  So I get ONE chance per hour, in a game mode I completely hate.  (I'm not going to list everything I think is wrong with Arbitrations, because frankly NO ONE CARES.)

And the only ways to make a trade are "use the spammy spam spam filled chat channel to trade for platinum, hope you find someone who doesn't instantly throw you on Ignore and doesn't decide to keep you waiting for fifteen minutes just for the lulz."  That's aside from the part where anything that drops from Arbitrations is seriously overpriced, because there's only ONE mission every hour and therefore a very limited supply, even of the mods that drop like trash.  And seriously, do you think people will be interested in ANYTHING other than platinum?  Because from where I stand, anyone who can run hudreds of Arbitrations to get enough of these mods to sell isn't going to have any issue basically one-shotting the map to get any other reward in the game.  What else could I possibly offer... Deimos critter capture tags?

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Moved to arbis? Thank goodness, this is an awesome change for people such as myself who enjoy difficult content but don't want to touch the failure that is steel path with a 50m pole. However, I do agree with what other people have stated, multiple methods of aquisition is a good thing, why not have steel path shop AND arbis offer this? More player choice is good.
Though none of this mentions the 'On-Kill' issue: is this going to be the worst kind of on-kill like Astral Autopsy is, or will this be more merciful and functional?
It's great to see that you are listening to player feedback at least a little bit, keep it up! 👍

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11 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

And the only ways to make a trade are "use the spammy spam spam filled chat channel to trade for platinum, hope you find someone who doesn't instantly throw you on Ignore and doesn't decide to keep you waiting for fifteen minutes just for the lulz."

Just use warframe.market. You list what you have available and people come to you. I do it like once a month to clear out the more valuable things from my inventory. Last time I made 1600 plat in a day, didn't have to open trade chat once.

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There has been a lot of discussion on the upcoming melee and gun changes already. Some of it has been constructive. Some of it has not.

However, since I have some points that I think are worth consideration and I have not seen widely discussed or put together in a clear and concise form I thought I would bring them up.

The main concern I have with the changes is the fact that every new conditional effect presented is triggered on kill.

However, I think the vast majority of the criticism of this is misplaced.

Most of the criticism of this point is along the lines of:

Quote

If your damage is too low you can't kill anything in the first place so you cant trigger the effect anyways

This is mostly hyperbole. You can, in fact, kill steel path enemies with a well modded primary or secondary. It will take longer than you are used to or may like but you absolutely can. We will come back to the fact that it will take longer than most players will like later.

There is also some criticism on the topic of "killstealing". However, killstealing such as it exists in Warframe is not related to these changes and while they might exacerbate the issue somewhat when it occurs, it is really an issue of the balance with the weapons/abilities that are capable of clearing huge numbers of enemies at a time in combination with the objectives that the game presents the players with. If killstealing is going to be addressed it should really be done in those areas. Changing these mods and arcanes just to avoid them exacerbating killstealing would be a very small band-aid that would not address the core issue.

 

In the original Dev Workshop it was stated that:

Quote

Our goal is to encourage you to use your entire Arsenal in-mission. Switching between Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapons should feel like valid and strategic options, in contrast to the uncontested Melee dominance that exists in the current meta. We want Melee to be fun and powerful as you rip and tear your way through the solar system but we want players to have that same level of fun and power with Primary and Secondary weapons should that be their preference.

I fully agree with this. I think that Warframe's combat is the strongest when we are able to utilize all three of it's tools (melee, guns, and abilities) fluidly switching between them as the situation requires on a moment to moment basis.

That is why I hate the design of blood rush and weeping wounds. Personally my experience has been that when using them I feel required to use a melee weapon even when the situation may call for my primary, secondary or an ability because I lose a large amount of power if I don't reset my combo counter before it runs out. I dislike it enough that I simply don't run blood rush in my builds even when it would almost certainly be a better option than umbral steel (it helps that melee weapons are still strong even without it).

To be very clear, this design is not inherently bad. Chaining together triggers of a buff, ability or effect in order to retain that power for as long as possible can be compelling design however blood rush's design does not execute on this well (exalted weapons are an example of a better implementation or this idea) and in Warframe specifically, restricting that trigger to a specific weapon undercuts the biggest strength of Warframe's combat system.

The first problem with the new mods and arcanes is that they duplicate the design failure of blood rush. By creating long term buffs that are could potentially be maintained for long periods of time and are triggered off of using that weapon these arcanes incentivize sticking to that weapon exclusively. In combination with the relatively slow kill speed (as stated earlier) of most primary and secondary weapons these arcanes create a very strong incentive for taking a kill with the weapon that will give the buff regardless of which one might be more suited to the situation.

The second problem with the new mods and arcanes is that the on kill trigger does not change player behavior. As it currently stands, despite all of it's mission types Warframe fundamentally gives the player two objectives in all "normal" missions (and while I would like to see this change it is out of scope for these changes): Kill all the enemies and  avoid all the enemies. If we are using a weapon we will always be trying to kill the enemies, otherwise we would likely not have used it at all. This is speculation but it looks to me more like the on kill trigger is intended to simply modulate the rate at which the stacks build and divorce it from the different weapon stats (fire rate, crit/status chance, area of effect etc.). Given that this creates other issues I think that the better solution is to come up with more varied triggers that give different types of weapons different feels and player incentives to use them in  particular ways or in particular situations.

Finally, the last problem with the new mods and arcanes is that all of them being on kill is, in my opinion, bland design. I certainly understand why it is attractive to have a uniform trigger as it theoretically makes it easier to balance between them and I know I wouldn't want these to come out with one extreme outlier. However, Using the same trigger for all of these mods and arcanes does not create much interesting design space and it may leave you backed into a corner in the future. Many people have pointed out that these will be very hard to use or at diminished effectiveness in boss fights. While this does not matter very much right now I would like to honestly ask the designers at digital extremes how long it will be before they will have time to revisit these changes once they have settled after the Sisters of Parvos update. It was over a year ago now when the status changes were done and every since viral has been the de facto best status effect in the game. How many new weapons, frames, mission types, bosses, etc. will be added around with these changes in their state after Sisters releases. Will you feel the need to include smaller enemies in boss-fights just so these arcanes can be triggered? Will new weapons have effects that count as getting a kill in order to trigger these more easily? Please don't back yourselves into a corner. Blood rush (as much as I dislike it) and condition overload (and even though they were WAY over-tuned initialy) are interesting mods that could add strange ways to build weapons and combinations if balanced well. If the design team need more time to come up with, balance and test versions of these arcanes and mods that use different triggers and effects to add power to our primaries and secondaries while also adding depth, texture, interest and design space to the game then it's worth it.

 

Lastly I have some ideas that I thought I would put forward.  I am not a game developer and I don't pretend to have the larger scale perspective on the game that the people who are do but I thought I would put these forward as a show of good faith, in order to illustrate some of the things I brought up before and to hopefully generate some constructive, useful discussion in the community. All number are intended as examples and would require testing/balancing. All of them are arcanes.

General design philosophy is that the baseline should be quickly stacking but with a short duration in order to allow the player to switch between weapons fluidly with low opportunity cost. More restrictive triggers should be balanced with higher duration and fewer stacks to reach the full bonus.

Arcane Blaster

This would be intended as the most general use arcane that would be reasonable on most medium to high fire rate weapons and possibly shotguns and should be balanced to be less powerful than other options on weapons with medium-low or lower fire rates. The duration should be balanced such that after killing a group of enemies if no enemies are in sight there would be a high change of the buff dropping.

40% chance On Hit:

+30% Damage for 3s. Stacks 12x. (new stacks refresh existing stack duration)

+30% Reload Speed.

+25% magazine size.

 

Arcane Devastation

This would be intended to be used on area of effect weapons and rewards careful shot placement to hit the most enemies possible in one shot. Think Accumulating whipclaw except it scales per enemy hit in one instance of damage instead of stacking multiple buffs. The duration needs to be longer since you will need to find a group (or set one up yourself) with enough enemies to get the full buff.

On Hit:

+60% Damage per enemy hit max 6 for 10s.

(multishot, punch through, hitting an enemy with the projectile and the explosion wouldn't help with this since those are all separate damage instances)

 

Arcane Sharpshooter

This would be intended for more precision weapons. The max stacks would be 5 for anything with any fire mode that isn't semi-auto. I don't really like the semi-auto requirement but I don't have a more elegant solution right now and this would be way over-tuned on beams and high accuracy rapid fire weapons. Even with 5 max stacks it still might be too good in comparison to Blaster given the headshot damage.

On Headshot:

+60% Damage for 6s. Stacks 5x (Stacks 6x for semi-auto weapons).

+30% to Headshot Multiplier.

 

Thanks to anyone who actually read this whole thing and I hope it generates some good discussion and that the changes end up working out well 😄.

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8 minutes ago, Maniac523 said:

Just use warframe.market. You list what you have available and people come to you. I do it like once a month to clear out the more valuable things from my inventory. Last time I made 1600 plat in a day, didn't have to open trade chat once.

I'm not making an account with warframe.market.  My trading preferences are irrelevant in any case - I'm one player.  This thread exists partly to collect feedback, so I provided it.  Moving the mods to Arbitrations is, in my opinion, a stupid idea, and my feedback is that it means that the new mods functionally won't exist for me.  The devs are free to do whatever they want with that feedback.  Magic 8 Ball says "Probably ignore it."

*Edit*  Not that it even slightly matters, but the "getting instantly thrown on Ignore or put on hold for fifteen minutes" have been my consistent *results* when trying to buy things via listings on Warframe.market.  I literally only use it when a new batch of augments come out, and even then it takes hours to get one of each.  I am NOT a fan of that site.

Edited by EmberStar
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