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The Arsenal Divide: Changes & Follow Ups


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3 hours ago, (NSW)MegaCoolRulez said:

if newer players will have a hard time to get them?

Yeah man! Why add the strongest items to the hardest game mode? Why would you make newer players struggle to get the best equipment?

In what world do games do such a thing?

 

Jokes aside, while idc much for the change, it still sp NEEDS some loot drops imo. Honestly the smeeta kavat trick helped me so much with tolerating steel path because building up steel essence is a whole nightmare. I use my steel essenence for kuva and even after 200-400 rolls on my weapons in total from all that kuva, im still 2 good stats short on most of those weapons, and 1 stat short on the rest.

Now im going to be getting half to 1/4 of the steel essence i was able to get before. 1/8 even

 

Thats a big punch to the gut. If not add the mods add void relics imo. Something that i can be happy to see during the 6 hours instead of after. Seeing my smeeta kavat proc its boost twice or more got me so excited and left me wanting to play it again, wondering "what if it will happen again or what if it procs even more times than that last run?!" Helped kill off some of the games feeling of repetition with neat rewards. Coming from someone who only really plays endless missions that are all about repeating.

Hope thats not just me

Edit: we do have new arcanes there so thats still a treat

Edited by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim
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25 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Awh man, I know it was an unpopular view, but I personally preferred the new Arcanes dropping from Steel Path, not Arbitrations. 1. You can select your own mission types whenever you want/can, and not be stuck to one that rotates every hour. 2. Now I assume they will also compete with Arbitration rewards, where as they would have been undiluted in Steel Path. 3. I find more people playing Steel Path. I often have to solo SP and Arbitrations, but preference wise, always more fun to play with others. 4. The main criticism, was that we where receiving a reward that is intended to help us complete the very same task we receive the reward from... and sure that makes sense, it does sound kind of odd, especially if we use rhetoric or hyperbole... but its a really common gameplay loop everywhere. Like the simple act of playing the game, increases your skill and knowledge making it easier. You struggle to get the reward in SP, initially, you get it, you get excited because you go in next time and find it easier. 

That being said, I am mindful of the idea that I have a lot of Arcanes, time, and thought playing the game, so may be underestimating how hard SP is... but eh, and this is anecdotal, but I see more people struggling with Arbitrations than Steel Path, because sometimes the fail conditions can be harsher/certain mechanics around defence, arby drones getting caught/stuck) so I always felt the idea of it being a "middle difficulty" in this specific regard, odd/slightly disingenuous and more about dunking on latest changes. 

Alternatively, if this means more people will actually do Arbitrations, then that will be nice too. So that could be fun. 

Everything else sounds pretty good! 

The arcanes will still drop in SP from acolytes. Its the mods that moved from Teshins store to Arbi store which allows players to gear up through arbis before heading into SP if they want to work on progressing their guns prior with the new mods to get them up to par.

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22 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Because of that, i guess people simply stops bothering with arbitrations quickly and now you're just trying to push everyone towards an underplayed mode.

This is the sad truth.

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16 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cash201293 said:

I don’t understand why some players want the mods we need to kill enemies in steel path to be earned in steel path. Please make it make sense to me. 

 

In Steel Path you can chose any mission type, any time, with a bunch of different builds. It may be difficult, subjectively, but certain things can make it easier, including these new mods and Arcanes. I take unoptimised gear into Steel Path a lot, to experiment and mess around with (usually solo, I take in actual decent builds if I play in group/pub). I have Arcane Guardian and Energise though, played the game a lot etc and know my win conditions well, so I always succeed. Plus if I mess up, I just revive myself. 

Plus its just like the normal Starchart. MR 2 new player doesn't have access to all the mods and weapons a MR 8 player who has completed the starchart. The act of progressing through the Starchart gives them the experience and tools to make the Starchart easier. If we wanted to... we could use rhetoric to say... "Wait DE.. you are giving us the tools that make starchart easier in the starchart... yeah real smart" but only if you phrase it that way... otherwise, it sounds pretty normal. Also yes its not the same either, normal star chart, Eidolons, Steel Path are different, as far as gameplay loops, reward tables, and the difficulty curves with or without certain items, and this is where subjective preferences can enter. So I am definitely not claiming "its the same" each presents different challenges and can be critiqued on that basis.

Alternatively... I revive people all the time in Steel Path, its pretty easy to, even if I am playing a really squishy Warframe, that relies on mobility to stay alive... I just pop into Operator. In Arbitrations though? Ehh, mixed results, because sometimes the Arbitration drones act wonky, I have to worry about the mission objective as well. Don't get me wrong, Arbitrations can be way way easier than Steel Path, you get an Infested Survival, have a group that actually works together and finds a good room to stay in... but you get less choices in mission type. Its only every hour, the rewards may be diluted, if you die once, its a much bigger deal, or if you play solo its over, so you can't really take more risky squishy builds where you can afford an occasional revive or two... 

Plus a lot of these mods exist to make SP easier for certain weapons, so you can guess that a lot of people who want these mods are going to want to do Steel Path. Sure it could be a bit difficult initially, but we are cutting our teeth on the content and finding it easier with both experience and the drops/rewards. 

Hope that helps. I personally find more people playing Steel Path than Arbitrations, I never realised the latter was so popular with people. 

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The combo duration stat on Dex arcanes is super cool.  I was pure merciless all the way but that arcane could open up all kinds of thing.  AKA dropping Naramon and using Madurai lol.   

Arbitrations to me are like way harder.   Jesus I just did 20 waves defense in Void in SP the other day with a spectrorage Gara,  no armor/no DR.  Didnt die once to my surprise.   Grinding out vitus essense is cruel and unusual punishment.   I have only done enough arbitrations to earn ONE grendel key,  which I shared with a squad who all had different keys to get Grendel when he dropped.   I have not bothered going back to get any other rewards.   

So Arbi will just be host for galvanied mods??   I dont need 21 of each like arcanes....   I dont need all of them...   how much essense they gonna cost??

----------------------

4-6 seconds on merciless seems insanely short if you want people using guns.  3 other people all killing stuff is going to lead to big gaps between kills.  

It would definately encourage this mixed combat philosphy if you made one common hit-streak meter.  Make guns build up the meter just the same as melee.  I always noticed if I switched to guns after building up my x12 combo they would crit like crazy.  Problem is they could not sustain my combo.   

Besides build up combo with either gun or melee.   To encourage mixed combat you could also add a switch bonus.  if you switch weapons it gives a huge delay or pause to combo degradation/loss (could add degredation aka naramon power spike) for like 4-6 seconds.

I get my combo up to x3 with melee and then i switch and kill a guy with a gun and bump my combo to x4,  but I also get a switch bonus that pauses the hit-streak meter for 4-6 seconds before it starts the countdown for the combo duration.

How does DE envision combo's in this new combat system.   Should combo go up and then instant fade or should we be keeping x12 up the entire mission??   With all these different mods and conditions for combo duration, it doesnt seem like you have a very clear vision for combat.  

It seems like guns are getting tiny combo duration but its seperate from melee combo duration.  Does NOT sound cohesive and more like they will compete with one another and using one will make the other one drop off completely.  

 

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3 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Do you worry that all this emphasis on buff stacks will incentivize players to use only a single weapon during missions to avoid losing the stacks? For example, if I build up my stacks on the primary weapon I'm unlikely to use secondary or melee since I'm afraid of losing primary stacks. 

Personally, I would prefer a system that incentivizes players to use the entire arsenal and mix it up a lot during missions, keeping the combat fresh throughout instead of just repeating the same actions over and over.

This is exactly why we should remove the primary secondary melee slots and replace that with slot 1 slot 2 slot 3 and let us pick any 3 weapons we want. Opens up endless possibilities and combos. 

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Tenno!

 

3) Galvanized Mod Acquisition:

Moved all Galvanized Mods to Arbitrations from Steel Path. 

Why: This change is rooted in the depth of the new items we’re putting in Steel Path with this Update, and the hope some players had about being able to earn the Galvanized Mods before they even arrived on the Steel Path. Since Arbitrations also require a completed Star Chart, but are a step up in difficulty from that base Star Chart, we thought (and so did many of you) that they’d be a good stepping stone for earning some of the new Upgrades! 

 

 

I'm sure someone likes this change.  Speaking only for myself, this moves the new mods from being "part of a system I don't like but might interact with" into "part of a system I actively despise and refuse to use."  So... good to know that the new mods are now less than useless for me since I'll never see a single one of them.

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3 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

So... good to know that the new mods are now less than useless for me since I'll never see a single one of them

Or you can play a gamemode that you like and get enough items to trade them for enough plat to buy the mods you want. Still a way

Edited by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim
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So let's see what farming vitus essence has been like for me in the last 3 hours:

  • Mission 1: My team left after 15 waves of defense since 2 of them died. Only got 7 vitus essence.
  • Mission 2: The rest of my team left after 5 waves of defense. I stayed solo to wave 30. Didn't get a single vitus essence drop the entire time.
  • Mission 3: The rest of my team left at the 7 minute mark. Host migration caused enemy spawns to drop well below the rate of a single player. None of them could be alerted by me for some reason so I had to hunt across the entire map for the 5 or 6 enemies that were spawned in at a time. I left after 40 minutes. Only got 14 vitus essence.

If these mods are going to be exclusive to the arbitrations store, I'm just going to buy them from someone else for plat. I'm not interested in touching arbitrations again until serious changes are made to the vitus essence drop rate. I would happily farm these mods from the steel path store, even if they were 50 steel essence each. At least in Steel Path I can farm more than 1 mission an hour. And if they were put back in the steel path store at least then I'd have something to buy from Teshin that isn't kuva and a single riven once a week.

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Just now, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Or you can play a gamemode that you like and get enough items to trade them for enough plat to buy the mods you want. Theres always that beautiful option m8

I'm not interested in playing Arbitrations, and I'm LESS interested in paying someone else to play it.  The trading system in Warframe is garbage, and I'm not spending my own money to buy these mods.

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Just now, EdDiesel said:

The arcanes will still drop in SP from acolytes. Its the mods that moved from Teshins store to Arbi store which allows players to gear up through arbis before heading into SP if they want to work on progressing their guns prior with the new mods to get them up to par.

 

Yeah I meant the mods not arcanes. My bad. 

I understand the theory, in the change, I just don't think in practice this actually works that well. Again, anecdotal and my own personal experiences, but I rarely see many people in Arbitrations, except for the type that also can do Steel Path. Maybe this change will send an influx of players into Arbitrations, but a lot of Warframe acquaintances/randoms I talk to, only do Arbitrations if they are Survival, they get the buff on a Warframe they use, or they want Adaptation. Otherwise its too finicky, lack of mission choice, Drone mechanics, the death mechanic so on. 

Personally, I like Arbitrations, but I also like a lot of stuff thats generally unpopular, so either way I benefit. I may be underestimating how difficult people find initial Steel Path though, but with the choice in missions, (your Exterminations and Captures on early planets like Earth) whenever you want, not limited to a single quest that rolls every hour, that sometimes can have a tricky fail condition... 4 or 5 deaths versus 1 (which is game over in solo mode), then the Arbitration Drone factor, (you have to consider and have a weapon for that), I don't know... I feel like Arbitrations was a lot of peoples arbitrary suggestion because its not Steel Path, was just surface level knee jerk type reaction. "You put the reward to do the thing in the thing that we need the reward for? Think DE think!" 

Plus the reward dilutions. Unless we get them from Vitus Essence, in which case... great, because I have way more Vitus Essence than SE. I am not personally bothered too much either way.

 

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8 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

I'm not interested in playing Arbitrations, and I'm LESS interested in paying someone else to play it.  The trading system in Warframe is garbage, and I'm not spending my own money to buy these mods.

I didnt say play arbitration or use real money. I said farm sellable things, things you dont use but some else would, from a gamemode that you like.

Its nearly the same thing as DE adding the new mods to a gamemode that you like except with the step of trading. No ones playing anything they dislike in this scenario

 

As for the trade system being bad idk what you mean. Theres different ways to make a trade

Edited by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim
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1 hour ago, superssbs said:

If really thinkng about letting players to have the new mods not too easy not too hard, why not developing a new mission method lol

if they realy wanted not too easy not to hard junctions would be a great option lol
cuz you get them while progressing

 

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57 minutes ago, -JT-_-R3W1ND said:

I love how most of ppl are ignoring this. I'm not sure 12 is ok enough, but 16 is just memeing. What was "the test" resulting in this?


Why you calculating this as "total redused by 2". Show me please the build using ALL of this same time. Just curious, what is not the part of the game — rivens, or exilus mods.

 

The primary and shotgun multishot mods have 15 cost. If you put them on a polarity slot they are reduce to 8 due to rounding. The galvanize mod being 16 won't make a difference because it will also be reduced to 8.

The other galvanize mods will be reduced to 6 once put on a polarized slot. I tested "extreme" builds on Primary, Shotgun and Secondary and they all fit even while using riven, Primed mods AND Exilus. It will require forma on everything, but if you don't have a riven and forget the exilus then it requires less.

Primary example with costs once you put forma.

Galvanized Scope (6)

Galvanized Aptitude (6)

Serration (7)

Galvanized Chamber (8)

Primed Cryo Rounds (8)

Point Strike (5)

Vital Sense (5)

Riven (9)

Stabilizer (5)

Total mod cost: 59 using 9 forma

And this is going all out, if you don't have a riven or forget the exilus it is less forma.

 

Shotgun example:

Primed Point Blank (7)

Primed Ravage (7)

Blunderbluss (5)

Galvanized Savvy (6)

Galvanized Hell (8)

Primed Chilling Grasp (8)

Toxic barrage (4)

Riven (9)

Galvanized Acceleration (6)

total mod cost: 60

Secondary example

Hornet Strike (7)

Primed Pistol Gambit (6)

Primed Target Cracker (7)

Galvanized Shot (6) 

Galvanized Crosshair (6)

Galvanized Diffusion (7)

Primed Heated Charge (8) 

Riven (9)

ammo mutation (4) (Note: The only compromise here is if you want a 9 cost mod like Steady hands, which would cost 5 once polarized. In this case change Primed Heated Charge for the normal version or use a rank 8 Primed Heated Charge)

total cost:  60 (And this is using exilus, 3 galvanized mods, 3 primed mods and riven)

Edited by HolySeraphin
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If Arbitration's reward table is gonna be flooded with more rewards... can we remove some of them?

Personally I feel Seeding Step Ephemera Blueprint is the most useless reward and drives me insane every time I land on it. Just throw that in the Arby shop.

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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

1) Galvanized Mod Acquisition:

Moved all Galvanized Mods to Arbitrations from Steel Path. 

Why: This change is rooted in the depth of the new items we’re putting in Steel Path with this Update, and the hope some players had about being able to earn the Galvanized Mods before they even arrived on the Steel Path. Since Arbitrations also require a completed Star Chart, but are a step up in difficulty from that base Star Chart, we thought (and so did many of you) that they’d be a good stepping stone for earning some of the new Upgrades! 

 

Uuuuurgh... WHY?

I absolutely HATE Arbitrations! Why can't it be acquired from BOTH Arbitrations and Steel Path?

 

Now, about that "on kill" requirement... you realize that such a requirement goes OPPOSITE of what it would try and help, yes? Because, you are saying the items are supposed to help with Steel Path and similar tough content. Yet:

On kill on regular missions = More overkill on easy content. It basicly makes easy missions easier. This is obviously not the intention, right?

On kill on Steel Path = Hard to keep up when fighting very tanky mobs, thus not beneficial to the very place it is intended to help out on! It's particularly useless on bosses and heavy units, the epitome of enemies were you'd need help with damage output! Thus = On kill = Useless for helping on Steel Path, completely opposite of the intention!

Effects like on headshot (not killing headshots), on crit, on status, on hit (chancebased) - All of these would be MUCH more useful on Steel Path while being harder to keep up on regular missions (especially if it's they are redistributed with more stacks and smaller gains per stack).

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2 minutes ago, DaMasque said:

If Arbitration's reward table is gonna be flooded with more rewards... can we remove some of them?

Personally I feel Seeding Step Ephemera Blueprint is the most useless reward and drives me insane every time I land on it. Just throw that in the Arby shop.

I feel this pain. If not add it to the shop the game needs a reroll function to help stop player from getting dupes of this kind

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Just now, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I didnt say play arbitration or use real money. I said farm sellable things, things you dont use but some else would, from a gamemode that you like.

Its nearly the same thing as DE adding the new mods to a gamemode that you like except with the step of trading. On a plus side, you get to play the gamemode that you like and that person who likes arbitration and has a mod to trade with you gets to do something they like.

 

As for the trade system being bad idk what you mean. Theres different ways to make a trade

If the mods were part of Steel Path, then I could PLAY a mission type I like, using Warframes that I like, and weapons that I like.  And I could play those missions (lower level Exterminates, probably) as OFTEN as I can stand to get the mods and be done with it.  If it's in Abitrations, I don't get to choose what Warframe - the stupid Drones mean a ton aren't viable because powers aren't dependable for stopping the high-level (and badly balanced) enemies from one-shotting you.  Self-revive isn't a thing in Arbitrations.  So I get ONE chance per hour, in a game mode I completely hate.  (I'm not going to list everything I think is wrong with Arbitrations, because frankly NO ONE CARES.)

And the only ways to make a trade are "use the spammy spam spam filled chat channel to trade for platinum, hope you find someone who doesn't instantly throw you on Ignore and doesn't decide to keep you waiting for fifteen minutes just for the lulz."  That's aside from the part where anything that drops from Arbitrations is seriously overpriced, because there's only ONE mission every hour and therefore a very limited supply, even of the mods that drop like trash.  And seriously, do you think people will be interested in ANYTHING other than platinum?  Because from where I stand, anyone who can run hudreds of Arbitrations to get enough of these mods to sell isn't going to have any issue basically one-shotting the map to get any other reward in the game.  What else could I possibly offer... Deimos critter capture tags?

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Moved to arbis? Thank goodness, this is an awesome change for people such as myself who enjoy difficult content but don't want to touch the failure that is steel path with a 50m pole. However, I do agree with what other people have stated, multiple methods of aquisition is a good thing, why not have steel path shop AND arbis offer this? More player choice is good.
Though none of this mentions the 'On-Kill' issue: is this going to be the worst kind of on-kill like Astral Autopsy is, or will this be more merciful and functional?
It's great to see that you are listening to player feedback at least a little bit, keep it up! 👍

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11 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

And the only ways to make a trade are "use the spammy spam spam filled chat channel to trade for platinum, hope you find someone who doesn't instantly throw you on Ignore and doesn't decide to keep you waiting for fifteen minutes just for the lulz."

Just use warframe.market. You list what you have available and people come to you. I do it like once a month to clear out the more valuable things from my inventory. Last time I made 1600 plat in a day, didn't have to open trade chat once.

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