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"The Devs Nerf Things Because of Popularity" -- Well Let's PROVE It!


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At this point I dont find any logic in their decissions, since they nerfed Catchmoon for being so powerful that everyone used it, and now is going to have, not only better mods to equip, but also a second arcane slot... They are trapped between their own contradictions more and more...

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14 minutes ago, XzWasPzX said:

At this point I dont find any logic in their decissions, since they nerfed Catchmoon for being so powerful that everyone used it, and now is going to have, not only better mods to equip, but also a second arcane slot... They are trapped between their own contradictions more and more...

they nerfed catchmoon long before the steel path existed which is what has spurred on the sudden need to rebuff guns. In content below steel path it was outclassing everything and higher usage to such an extent it was THE choice for pistols . That nerf  started in October 31 2019. Steel path was added to the game in July 08 2020. The game changed and now we have a higher power cap than we did before, this buff makes perfect sense and isn't a contradiction but an evolution.

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I completely understand the logic that this post is built on, but we can’t just ignore what the devs have literally told us, as many others have pointed out already. They do nerf based on popularity, but that is an oversimplification. 

Things get nerfed because they invalidate the other options. If something is incredibly powerful, but for some reason is not the overwhelming favorite choice by players, then there’s no reason to nerf it.

There’s a very good example of this strategy that we can point to in game: Octavia. She is OP in every sense of the term, yet she’s never been nerfed. I’d say that’s because she’s not popular, and thus is not invalidating the other options.

Edit: Feel like I need to add this before someone hits me with “bUt wHaT aBoUt GlAiVeS”. Yes, Glaives are getting nerfed despite not being incredibly popular. Just because “nerf the overwhelming favorite” is their primary philosophy for nerfs, that doesn’t mean they can’t make additional balance changes wherever and whenever they see fit.

This is DE we’re talking about after all, and the only consistent thing about DE is their inconsistency.

Edited by (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face
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35 minutes ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

I completely understand the logic that this post is built on, but we can’t just ignore what the devs have literally told us, as many others have pointed out already. They do nerf based on popularity, but that is an oversimplification. 

Things get nerfed because they invalidate the other options. If something is incredibly powerful, but for some reason is not the overwhelming favorite choice by players, then there’s no reason to nerf it.

There’s a very good example of this strategy that we can point to in game: Octavia. She is OP in every sense of the term, yet she’s never been nerfed. I’d say that’s because she’s not popular, and thus is not invalidating the other options.

Edit: Feel like I need to add this before someone hits me with “bUt wHaT aBoUt GlAiVeS”. Yes, Glaives are getting nerfed despite not being incredibly popular. Just because “nerf the overwhelming favorite” is their primary philosophy for nerfs, that doesn’t mean they can’t make additional balance changes wherever and whenever they see fit.

This is DE we’re talking about after all, and the only consistent thing about DE is their inconsistency.

So going along with what you said I thought that I'd add that octavia and larkspur usage vs necramechs actually led to a round-about nerf to octavia, auto targetting guns, and infinite punchthrough guns via the tightening of code around the type of damage that weakpoint based enemies can receive.  Due the overwhelming usage of those items indirect damage no longer hits weakpoints automatically, auto targeting guns can no longer automatically lock onto weakpoints, and infinite punchtrough weapons can't punch-through the "body" of a weakpoint based enemy to hit the weakpoints anymore in most cases.

Glaives actually have been sneakily rising in usage in steel path. Considering what they are capable of I'm not surprised to see them getting a nerf

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15 hours ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Things get nerfed because they invalidate the other options.

...

There’s a very good example of this strategy that we can point to in game: Octavia. She is OP in every sense of the term, yet she’s never been nerfed. I’d say that’s because she’s not popular, and thus is not invalidating the other options.

...

Edit: Feel like I need to add this before someone hits me with “bUt wHaT aBoUt GlAiVeS”. Yes, Glaives are getting nerfed despite not being incredibly popular. Just because “nerf the overwhelming favorite” is their primary philosophy for nerfs, that doesn’t mean they can’t make additional balance changes wherever and whenever they see fit.

Just want to say "very well put". Invalidating other options is an excellent explanation AND a very good reason for changing things.

And I actually think that this can be applied the glaive nerf too. The difference in damage output between quick and heavy attacks was so small it invalidated heavy attacks

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vor 15 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face:

There’s a very good example of this strategy that we can point to in game: Octavia. She is OP in every sense of the term, yet she’s never been nerfed. I’d say that’s because she’s not popular, and thus is not invalidating the other options.

Octavia is a paper tiger, always trotted out on the forum as a supposedly OP frame, rarely seen in game. She's not popular for a reason.

Edited by Krankbert
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19 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Octavia is a paper tiger, always trotted out on the forum as a supposedly OP frame, rarely seen in game. She's not popular for a reason.

I agree that she’s not popular for a reason, and that’s why she’s never been nerfed. I even addressed that in my post.

Edited by (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face
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vor 26 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face:

I agree that she’s not popular for a reason, and that’s why she’s never been nerfed. I even addressed that in my post.

Sometimes I think "maybe I'm too jaded, maybe I shouldn't be that sarcastic and condescending on this forum all the time". Then I get a repsonse like that one and I think "nah".

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17 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

just not! if you have no idea about anything, then you shouldn't touch it at all. but toddlers have a different logic .....

The key difference here, my friend, is that DE nerfed the relative power of the Catchmoon and now the Kuva Nukor to put it more on par with the other strong weapons, and then they added the new Arcanes and Mods so that they're applicable to everything.

The Catchmoon was too strong in a relative state to the other weapons that were strong. With these new updates, all of those other weapons will have the same advantage so while in a vacuum the Catchmoon has had a nerf and then a buff, in context the weapon is no stronger or weaker than it was in comparison to the other weapons, because all the other weapons have had the same buff.

It's not about 'nerf the strong thing, then buff it again like idiots'. It's about 'Apply nerfs and buffs so that no one thing should so greatly outclass all the other things, but all things are actually viable at base'.

To be fair, as long as the Stug exists in its current state, DE will not have actually solved the gun problem.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Birdframe_Prime:

The key difference here, my friend, is that DE nerfed the relative power of the Catchmoon and now the Kuva Nukor to put it more on par with the other strong weapons, and then they added the new Arcanes and Mods so that they're applicable to everything.

The Catchmoon was too strong in a relative state to the other weapons that were strong. With these new updates, all of those other weapons will have the same advantage so while in a vacuum the Catchmoon has had a nerf and then a buff, in context the weapon is no stronger or weaker than it was in comparison to the other weapons, because all the other weapons have had the same buff.

It's not about 'nerf the strong thing, then buff it again like idiots'. It's about 'Apply nerfs and buffs so that no one thing should so greatly outclass all the other things, but all things are actually viable at base'.

To be fair, as long as the Stug exists in its current state, DE will not have actually solved the gun problem.

for Catchmoon you need reputation, arcanes and other stuff like mats ...
I can’t understand it at all. I've never played seriously with Catchmoon and can't quite understand it. Effects, sounds and design are more than convincing! why turn such a good and hard-to-get weapon into absolute garbage?

you and other people address important issues. many top solutions have been around for a long time. only DE absolutely wants to continue his epic fail story ... who wins here ???

well ...

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3 hours ago, Krankbert said:

Octavia is a paper tiger, always trotted out on the forum as a supposedly OP frame, rarely seen in game. She's not popular for a reason.

 

19 hours ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Things get nerfed because they invalidate the other options. If something is incredibly powerful, but for some reason is not the overwhelming favorite choice by players, then there’s no reason to nerf it.

 

3 hours ago, Krankbert said:

Sometimes I think "maybe I'm too jaded, maybe I shouldn't be that sarcastic and condescending on this forum all the time". Then I get a repsonse like that one and I think "nah".

I understand it’s your MO around here to be condescending to everyone you respond to, but you can do better than this.

Edited by (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face
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vor 17 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face:

 

 

I understand it’s your MO around here to be condescending to everyone you respond to, but you can do better than this.

Well, you could have responded to the part of the comment where I clearly disagreed with you. Instead you chose to give me a condescending explanation that you also adressed the three words that our posts shared. So I thought ignoring post content in favor of condescension was what you wanted to see.

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57 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

you and other people address important issues. many top solutions have been around for a long time. only DE absolutely wants to continue his epic fail story ... who wins here ???

What fail story, though?

Honestly, they achieved exactly what they wanted to achieve from those changes in the past. When the Catchmoon was nerfed it wasn't even a hard nerf, they just gave it fall-off on the damage so it acted more like the pocket shotgun it was supposed to be, but the statement 'Catchmoon nerfed' was enough to bring down the popularity of the weapon massively.

What this actually achieved was that they didn't change any of the actual base function, the Catchmoon still did all the same damage and had the same usefulness, it just wasn't something you could use as a long-range variant. I still use the Catchmoon, depending on which frame and strategy I feel like playing, because it's still a good weapon.

The side effect of changing it, however, was that all of the people using it because of its believed status of 'the best secondary weapon in the game' just moved on to other weapons. The usage of that one specific weapon dropped, the usage of all the other powerful secondary weapons went up.

It's the same with the Kuva Nukor, they limit one function of it, specifically the number of enemies it affects, and the usage will go down. Players will just move on to something like the Epitaph for their AoE Status application (heck, with the new mods, the Phantasma might be a good alternative too).

The specific reason to nerf anything is to bring it back into line with the other things around it. The same is true for buffs in this game.

If you don't believe me on the buffs, the current state of Melee is the direct result of the biggest buff in recent years to any system in the game. It was so successful that we're all now having debates on how to make guns compete again, and finding that none of the normal ways will even compare.

So yes, there will be things that get nerfed.

And that's a normal part of game design.

You can't just buff everything over and over, otherwise the game itself can't keep up. Every enemy gets one-shot, every mission isn't a challenge, all the diverse and aesthetically designed enemies might as well be Fall Guys bean people. It's kind of like that now, especially on lower levels.

The aim of DE in nerfs is to even the playing field among competing items, such as secondary weapons, or melee weapons, or even Warframe Abilities. If the entire class needs a buff, this does not negate the nerfs to specific items.

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2 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

rivens, deimos garbage can contenta, kuva nukor nerfs ....
there are too many points that need to be addressed!

I still don't see that as a fail story?

We still got content, we still got updates. Rivens are in the game for good or bad, and the current system of them is better than when they started. Kuva Nukor deserves a nerf because of all the reasons I pointed out.

When something is unbalanced towards the too powerful, it gets nerfed. When something is unbalanced towards the not-powerful, it gets buffs. Eventually.

Since the 'too powerful' side is immediately noticeable and something Stats can track really easily, that's why it gets addressed quickly.

But what would you rather have? New content to play, or the Stug gets a rework? Both? Both is good. And both will be had. Because DE isn't all nerfs, and DE isn't all 'garbage content'.

Like I said, they literally just last year buffed Melee so hard that it's literally been the meta of the hardest levels of play since about four seconds after it was changed.

Now when they're making changes to balance it up, bring guns up to the same level, you focus on one gun out of four hundred that's getting a nerf and call this a fail?

Get out of here with that.

Just stop it.

The phrase 'making a mountain out of a molehill' is too mild here, you're trying to claw your way across completely flat and comfortably padded ground and saying it's a mountain.

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53 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Well, you could have responded to the part of the comment where I clearly disagreed with you. Instead you chose to give me a condescending explanation that you also adressed the three words that our posts shared. So I thought ignoring post content in favor of condescension was what you wanted to see.

My guy, I would love nothing more than to have an actual discussion with you as opposed to this back-and-forth. My initial response to you was not meant to be condescending, so allow me to apologize that it came across that way. So let’s revisit:

5 hours ago, Krankbert said:

Octavia is a paper tiger, always trotted out on the forum as a supposedly OP frame, rarely seen in game. She's not popular for a reason.

I see now that my mistake was not googling what “paper tiger” meant. Never heard the term before, so now I’ve learned something, and I apologize for missing your point.

So you really don’t think Octavia is OP? Let’s look at what she can do:

- She can draw enemy fire away from the team, herself, and objectives, and this works at any level of content

- She can stay invisible forever

- She has infinitely scaling damage

- She offers a bunch of team-wide buffs as a cherry on top

She can also do all that while basically standing still. She is insanely powerful, and I believe the reason you don’t see her in game that often is because she’s just not very fun to play.

You could say she’s not being nerfed because she’s not popular, but I think “she’s not being nerfed because she’s not invalidating the other options” is much better phrasing.

Edited by (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face
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5 hours ago, Krankbert said:

Octavia is a paper tiger, always trotted out on the forum as a supposedly OP frame, rarely seen in game. She's not popular for a reason.

Your statement is correct. Your reasoning is not ^^

Octavia is not popular because she's boring. Not because she's not powerful.

The key here is that players will, by vast majority, use what's most effective when it comes to time limited events. DE actually gave us stats, of a sort, for usage of frames in the Scarlet Spear event, as an example. While the most used 'damage' frame was Baruuk, and the most used 'control' frame was Limbo, the next highest frame used was Octavia. Why? Large area damage boosting that, with the amount of 'noise' produced by the enemies, was easy and quick to give entire squads a decent boost, plus passive, accidental multi-shot boosting. Add to that the instant CC that her Resonator adds, and the easy damage that Mallet deals.

It's surprising how easily Octavia fits into a squad in those situations.

But in regular gameplay... she's just boring.

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9 hours ago, Krankbert said:

Octavia is a paper tiger, always trotted out on the forum as a supposedly OP frame, rarely seen in game. She's not popular for a reason.

Paper tiger? A frame with permanent invisibility, near-perfect soft CC and scaling damage is a "paper tiger"?
 

The reasons you don't see Octavia out there are that she was moderately annoying to get (before her prime was released), is boring as hell to play, and RSI is a thing.

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face:

My guy, I would love nothing more than to have an actual discussion with you as opposed to this back-and-forth. My initial response to you was not meant to be condescending, so allow me to apologize that it came across that way. So let’s revisit:

I see now that my mistake was not googling what “paper tiger” meant. Never heard the term before, so now I’ve learned something, and I apologize for missing your point.

So you really don’t think Octavia is OP? Let’s look at what she can do:

- She can draw enemy fire away from the team, herself, and objectives, and this works at any level of content

- She can stay invisible forever

- She has infinitely scaling damage

- She offers a bunch of team-wide buffs as a cherry on top

She can also do all that while basically standing still. She is insanely powerful, and I believe the reason you don’t see her in game that often is because she’s just not very fun to play.

You could say she’s not being nerfed because she’s not popular, but I think “she’s not being nerfed because she’s not invalidating the other options” is much better phrasing.

„Infinitely scaling damage“ is the perfect example. Reads great on paper, in practice not so great against Grineer, near unusable against Infested, lacks mobility and doesn’t play well with any number of abilities group members may use.

Edited by Krankbert
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