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Moving galvanised mods to arbitrations just kills any excitement I had for them.


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34 minutes ago, drsnivy said:

I've checked, the only reward you'd want multiples of are archgun rivens and kuva.
There's just a whole load of bad cosmetics and mods that you'll buy once and never touch again.
Compared to steel path it's got nothing. the drop table rewards are bad too since it's diluted to all hell.

I sold those mods many times over to get other things in game. They are frequently asked for in trade as well.

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1 hour ago, drsnivy said:

1. When the outlier is more fun than almost every other gamemode, maybe it's time to revaluate your other gamemodes.

2. If people are ignoring content, maybe it's time to revaluate that content and make it more appealing instead of forcing people to play it. Forcing people to play a mode they absolutely hate instead of improving the system to make people enjoy playing it is terrible game design and you should just stick to selling burgers at mcdonalds if you hate people enjoying things that much.

3. The difference is: You can CHOOSE to play defection if you love waiting for slow moving NPCs that can get caught on the smallest geometry. You are not forced to wait 1 hour to play the mode you like, keep in mind, not everyone is able to play warframe 24/7 every day. The rotation is stupid and never should've been in arbitration.

It's just bad design, simple as that.

1) Or, the outlier could simply not be used as the baseline. The only reason it has a higher spawn rate is that DE didn't feel the standard spawn rate was enough of a challenge for hard mode. Fun is a byproduct of said increased spawn rate, not the goal.

2) You can not make less-difficult content more appealing to those who have long move on from said content, myself included. Content competes with content. If DE want a stop-gap in between 2 tiers of content content then it can not, by definition, be elevated to the level of the content that goes after it. As inconvenient as it may be, forcing people back into it is the only thing that works. It's no coincidence Yareli is going to be added to the Vent Kids when she's released for the same reason Harrow's components are in Defection. This is a carrot in a stick game, and developers don't want you to ignore content. 

3) Again: By that reasoning, you might as well remove everything but exterminate and capture from the entire game. 

57 minutes ago, drsnivy said:

That sure says a lot about the state of arbitrations doesn't it? Funny how people don't want to play the mode that is boring and less rewarding in comparison to the new one that has everything near perfect.
It's not an insane amount of reward, but it's enough to justify spending time doing it.
And it's actually fun to do and you can do it on any gamemode whenever you want or are able to.
"Force players to play X gamemode because nobody wants to play it" is a bad way to design a game, it's supposed to be fun not a chore.

The irony of your post here is that people didn't have a much of a problem with Vitus drop rate until TSP was added. It's akin to complaining your Toyota is a very slow car after trying a Ferrari. The Toyota didn't become slower, it's just that it suddenly wasn't good-enough for you anymore.

Edited by Jarriaga
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Man this REALLY kills my mood for the game right now. Arbitration is awful. I've been running it for the last few days because I needed the endo and I just cannot stand them. They are complete garbage compared to steel path. There are so many awful things about arbitrations that steel path you dont have to worry about.

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2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

The irony of your post here is that people didn't have a much of a problem with Vitus drop rate until TSP was added. It's akin to complaining your Toyota is a very slow car after trying a Ferrari. The Toyota didn't become slower, it just that it suddenly wasn't good-enough for you anymore.

More apt comparison would be moving from eating dirt to having a proper meal.

Turns out dirt is awful when you have a good meal.

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5 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

More apt comparison would be moving from eating dirt to having a proper meal.

Turns out dirt is awful when you have a good meal.

Only way that would be an apt comparison was if it was actual dirt. It wasn't. Pretending otherwise is historical revisionism. 

Most people were OK with Vitus drop rate. Full stop. It felt fair for how easy Arbitrations are and when considering all rewards are one-and-done offerings. You soon had more Vitus than you could use unless you were buying Kuva or buying stuff to sell them for plat.

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15 hours ago, Infirito said:

They should just add them mods to Defection and Infested Salvage missions, nobody plays them, so this will bring people back into those wonderful gamemodes. ^_^

lmao....both are the worst things in warframe....

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1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

Only way that would be an apt comparison was if it was actual dirt. It wasn't. Pretending otherwise is historical revisionism. 

Most people were OK with Vitus drop rate. Full stop. It felt fair for how easy Arbitrations are and when considering all rewards and one-and-done offerings.

Vitus rate was fine when you had an actual farming group and played particular game mode. Oh and you had both boosters. Add a Smeeta on top of that.

Just playing in a pub had poor rates (dirt poor I might say).

People where okay with the rates because it was a step up from the previous garbage they used to be before the Arbitration revisit.

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2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Vitus rate was fine when you had an actual farming group and played particular game mode. Oh and you had both boosters. Add a Smeeta on top of that.

Just playing in a pub had poor rates (dirt poor I might say).

People where okay with the rates because it was a step up from the previous garbage they used to be before the Arbitration revisit.

Did most of my arbitrations solo, without a booster and without a smeeta. I hate the revive mechanic and being punished with the revive tokens because other people died. Even if not a single drone dropped Vitus, I still got 12 per hour. That was and still fine in my opinion for that level of content because it's barely post-sortie level. Rewards should match the level of effort. Vitus drop rate is fine for that level of effort.

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2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

1) Or, the outlier could simply not be used as baseline. The only reason it has a higher spawn rate is that DE didn't feel the standard spawn rate was enough of a challenge for hard mode. Fun is a byproduct of said increased spawn rate, not the goal.

2) You can not make less-difficult content more appealing to those who have long move on from said content, myself included. Content competes with content. If DE want a stop-gap in between content that it can not, by definition, be elevated to the level of the content that goes after it. As inconvenient as it may be, forcing people back into is the only thing that works. It's no coincidence Yareli is going to be added to the Vent Kids when she's released for the same reason Harrow's components are in Defection. This is a carrot in a stick game.

3) Again: By that reasoning, you might as well remove everything but exterminate and capture from the entire game. 

The irony of your post here is that people didn't have a much of a problem with Vitus drop rate until TSP was added. It's akin to complaining your Toyota is a very slow car after trying a Ferrari. The Toyota didn't become slower, it just that it suddenly wasn't good-enough for you anymore.

1. Just because it's a byproduct, doesn't mean it shouldn't be put everywhere else just because the original goal was different to the end product.

2. So why not just allow players to do Arbitration on steel path if they choose? And also extend that to fissure missions  to.

3. You suggested forcing people to play exterminate or capture in response to someone saying steel path is better because it gives you the option to choose whatever gamemode you want, I don't see how that response makes sense to what I said there at all.

You're comparing extremely expensive vehicles, to gamemodes in a game that are easily modifiable. I feel like I don't need to explain why that's dumb, I can see where you're going with it, but it's very dumb.

 

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1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

Did most of my arbitrations solo, without a booster and without a smeeta. I hate the revive mechanic and being punished with the revive tokens because other people died. Even if not a single drone dropped Vitus, I still got 12 per hour. That was and still fine in my opinion for that level of content because it's barely post-sortie level. Rewards should match the level of effort. Vitus drop rate is fine for that level of effort.

Ahh I see. Your bar for a decent rate is so low that anything goes over it.

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10 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Only way that would be an apt comparison was if it was actual dirt. It wasn't. Pretending otherwise is historical revisionism. 

Most people were OK with Vitus drop rate. Full stop. It felt fair for how easy Arbitrations are and when considering all rewards are one-and-done offerings. You soon had more Vitus than you could use unless you were buying Kuva or buying stuff to sell them for plat.

"Arbitration is okay because it was fine before steel path" So it shouldn't be improved now that it has been proven there is a much more enjoyable, better, similar system in place?

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20 minutes ago, drsnivy said:

1. Just because it's a byproduct, doesn't mean it shouldn't be put everywhere else just because the original goal was different to the end product.

2. So why not just allow players to do Arbitration on steel path if they choose? And also extend that to fissure missions  to.

3. You suggested forcing people to play exterminate or capture in response to someone saying steel path is better because it gives you the option to choose whatever gamemode you want, I don't see how that response makes sense to what I said there at all.

You're comparing extremely expensive vehicles, to gamemodes in a game that are easily modifiable. I feel like I don't need to explain why that's dumb, I can see where you're going with it, but it's very dumb.

 

1) It's not appropriate for the rest of the game because you are not the only one playing it and DE prioritizes new and lower-geared players above everyone else. Veterans are not the target audience of WF. Every single time DE adds something new to the game, it's at the expense of veterans who must see their progress being "reset" with each iteration because they don't want dedicated farmers having too much of an advantage over the rest. It's fine in hard mode. It's not fine in start-chart level content.

2) I actually want for DE to add Steel Path Arbitations to the game because TSP is nowhere near as hard as it should be. I even proposed it months ago:

But that's a separate discussion. In the meanwhile, if DE have decided these mods are rewards as a stepping-stone then Arbitraitons and Sorties are the only appropriate game modes to place them. Ideally, Steel Path Arbitrations would be a thing so you can have your cake and eat it too. But that doesn't exist, thus I'm OK with these mods being in Arbitrations.

3) No. I'm not suggesting forcing people to only play Exterminate and Capture. I mean that if people had their way and they were never forced to ever play a game mode they don't want even once then all game modes sans exterminate and capture would be removed from the game because those are the only 2 game modes people don't complain about. 

4) I don't think it's a dumb comparison at all. It's the same concept: You changed your mind about something you were OK with because you tried something that was meant to be better. That is the ultimate irony here.

16 minutes ago, drsnivy said:

"Arbitration is okay because it was fine before steel path" So it shouldn't be improved now that it has been proven there is a much more enjoyable, better, similar system in place?

Improved how? Up to what point? It literally is half the drop rate of TSP while being only 35% as difficult. That's fair for such low-level content. Inconvenient after playing TSP? Sure, I'll give you that. But fair still.

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9 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Ahh I see. Your bar for a decent rate is so low that anything goes over it.

For Star Chart level content with one and done rewards? I actually think the drop rate was rather generous.

Easy content = Hard to get rewards.

Hard content = Easy to get rewards.

It's simple, really.

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6 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

1) It's not appropriate for the rest of the game because you are not the only one playing it and DE prioritizes new and lower-geared players above everyone else. Veterans are not the target audience of WF. Every single time DE adds something new to the game, it's at the expense of veterans who must see their progress being "reset" with each iteration because they don't want dedicated farmers having too much of an advantage over the rest. It's fine in hard mode. It's not fine in start-chart level content.

2) I actually want for DE to add Steel Path Arbitations to the game because TSP is nowhere near as hard as it should be. I even proposed it months ago:

4) I don't think it's a dumb comparison at all. It's the same concept: You changed your mine about something you were OK with because you tried something that was meant to be better. That is the ultimate irony here.

1. You aren't the only one playing it either, but I fail to see how increasing vitus essence drops, letting people choose the gamemode, and at least giving some way to have higher solo spawnrates (In arbitration AND every other gamemode that it could apply to) would harm lower geared players. And anyways, arbitrations were also originally made to give a challenge for veterans iirc, so it's kind of a bad point to make.

2. At least we agree on something, but I can foresee people hating it just because of Mania and it's bullet attractor ability, but that can somewhat be avoided with magus lockdown and heavy damage so eh.

4. Funny how people are dissatisfied with something bad when they discover it could be a lot better, I don't think that's ironic at all.

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21 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

For Star Chart level content with one and done rewards? I actually think the drop rate was rather generous.

Easy content = Hard to get rewards.

Hard content = Easy to get rewards.

It's simple, really.

The same amount of effort goes into SP as Arbitrations here, arguably more for Arbitrations as you want to find a decent group for them to get a good return (since you get penalized for running them solo, and pubs aren't know for being great).

Regardless, following your metric of easy = hard to get rewards, hard = easy rewards, let the mods be in SP. Let me do my "hard" content to get my rewards.

Edited by (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom
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4 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

The same amount of effort goes into SP as Arbitrations here, arguably more for Arbitrations as you want to find a decent group for them to get a good return (since you get penalized for running them solo, and pubs aren't know being great).

Regardless, following your metric of easy = hard to get rewards, hard = easy rewards, let the mods be in SP. Let me do my "hard" content to get my rewards.

I definitely see steel path as tedious not hard or fun.
Same could be said about steel path for a lot of people.
Therefore, there shouldn't be a real reason why the mods aren't available in both stores. I don't know why it's even an argument that it shouldn't be in both stores, it literally solves the problem and makes everyone happy, apart from players who don't like either of the modes I guess.

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12 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

The same amount of effort goes into SP as Arbitrations here, arguably more for Arbitrations as you want to find a decent group for them to get a good return (since you get penalized for running them solo, and pubs aren't know being great).

I don't agree. I die a lot more often in TSP than in Arbitrations because of differences in TTK. 

12 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Regardless, following your metric of easy = hard to get rewards, hard = easy rewards, let the mods be in SP. Let me do my "hard" content to get my rewards.

Here's the thing you're missing: I was OK with them being originally offered in TSP store. I'm not in the group who complained about that. But I do have issues with the mods being offered in both stores because it pretty much means the less efficient store is DoA.  

So if your position is making them exclusive to the Steel Path store then I'd support that. I won't however agree to or support having the mods in both stores. It's either or for the sake of the value of the game mode itself regardless of how inconvenient it may seem to be because the overall health of the game is more important to me than what I get for playing it.

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17 hours ago, drsnivy said:

Arbitrations compared to steelpath:

  • Vitus essence is around 12 guaranteed per 60 minutes VS 24-ish steel essence (affected by boosters and kavats meaning it can be significantly larger than garbitration)
  • arbitrations have default solo enemy spawn rates VS steel path where you’re rarely ever out of enemies to kill. That makes arbitrations Arbitrash because you’re asleep for 99% of the time.
  • arbitrations are a randomised gamemode, meaning when you log on it’s very often not a gamemode you’d ever want to play (I like Survival and hate defense, interception, defection and excavation, so it’s almost always “oh this gamemode sucks so I won’t bother with arbitration) VS steelpath, which is ANY gamemode at any time, play when you want to no bullS#&$.
  • droptablesfor arbitration are filled with arcanes, mods, seeding step ephemera and aura forma blueprints. No one ever wants these once they have them, move them to the arbitration store there is absolutely zero justification for these in the drop table for arbitration, move them to the store like the other mods are.
  • you have one life, and you get less rewards than the “”Hard mode”” that you can revive multiple times in, significantly less rewards.

 

Vitus essence from all sources (besides the 3x you get from drop tables) needs to be AT LEAST DOUBLED. enemy spawn rates need to be the same as steel path, in fact, spawn rates should be steel path spawn rates IN EVERY MISSION.

alternatively, just put the damn galvanised mods back in the gamemode that is not boring, unrewarding, and timegated RNG. OR JUST HAVE IT IN BOTH.

also the warframe boosts are almost never a warframe I’d want to play and absolutely never a weapon I use, although I see that more as a bonus.

and don’t you DARE make steel path less rewarding because arbitration sucks, make arbitration fun and rewarding to match steel path so that people that hate steel path have an alternative, and people that play steel path don’t have to experience garbitration/arbitrash economy.

Really hate the galvanised mods move, you really suck when you do this kind of thing, stop moving good rewards to the worst game modes when you had it right the first time.

Facts

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1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

So if your position is making them exclusive to the Steel Path store then I'd support that.

Then it'd just shift the anger back to the arbitration players and people that felt it was like mote amp/amps in general with Eidolons.

Putting it in both stores doesn't really change anything, people that wanted to get it from arbitration still could if they chose, and people that want to do steel path for it can too. And since DE can't back out of it, they'd have to double down and piss people off further, or settle for the middle ground change of just having it in both stores so that the majority (in the steel path/arbitration players, of course people who don't touch the hard modes will still dislike it) of people are happy

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19 minutes ago, drsnivy said:

1. You aren't the only one playing it either, but I fail to see how increasing vitus essence drops, letting people choose the gamemode, and at least giving some way to have higher solo spawnrates (In arbitration AND every other gamemode that it could apply to) would harm lower geared players. And anyways, arbitrations were also originally made to give a challenge for veterans iirc, so it's kind of a bad point to make.

2. At least we agree on something, but I can foresee people hating it just because of Mania and it's bullet attractor ability, but that can somewhat be avoided with magus lockdown and heavy damage so eh.

4. Funny how people are dissatisfied with something bad when they discover it could be a lot better, I don't think that's ironic at all.

1) I created a new account about 2 months ago. The new player experience is not a cakewalk when solo. Lack of healing and energy are a huge issue that even forces you to take cover. In addition, there are huge difficulty spikes even in the star chart I can't solo despite my experience due to lack of my standard maxed-level mods, lack of endo and resources. And yes, DE did originally intend for veterans to play Arbitrations, but they backpedaled and made it significantly easier later. I was very pissed off when they decreased the difficulty and removed permadeath. We now have TSP for for that.

4) That depends. If they were originally dissatisfied from the very beginning without having to try something else first then I do support their discontent. Otherwise, they changing their minds because of experiencing Y doesn't make X suddenly bad, just worse than Y.

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13 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't agree. I die a lot more often in TSP than in Arbitrations because of differences in TTK. 

And not because one gamemode prioritizes not dying and says gameover and "can't play me till the next hour" if you do, or at the least means you're out of action for a bit.

16 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I'm not in the group who complained about that. But I do have issues with the mods being offered in both stores because it pretty much means the less efficient store is DoA.  

So if your position is making them exclusive to the Steel Path store then I'd support that. I won't however agree to or support having the mods in both stores. It's either or for the sake of the value of the game mode itself regardless of how inconvenient it may seem to be because the overall health of the game is more important to me than what I get for playing it.

You can make both have close efficiency. Vitus is a bit harder to judge what rate you gain it at (due to the existence of actual farming strats existing for it), but you can still set a baseline for your more casual player. Make Arbitrations more efficient for all I care. The SP shop will survive with ease.

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14 minutes ago, drsnivy said:

Then it'd just shift the anger back to the arbitration players and people that felt it was like mote amp/amps in general with Eidolons.

Putting it in both stores doesn't really change anything, people that wanted to get it from arbitration still could if they chose, and people that want to do steel path for it can too. And since DE can't back out of it, they'd have to double down and piss people off further, or settle for the middle ground change of just having it in both stores so that the majority (in the steel path/arbitration players, of course people who don't touch the hard modes will still dislike it) of people are happy

I will then expect Yareli to be rewarded in Syndicates other than the Vent Kids, because why stop at the Galvanized mods placing them in multiple places so people can ignore any content they don't like forever?

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1 minute ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

And not because one gamemode prioritizes not dying and says gameover and "can't play me till the next hour" if you do, or at the least means you're out of action for a bit.

Yet I don't even remember the last time I died in Arbitrations. In TSP, enemies at least get a second or 2 to retaliate due to their armor values and numbers 1 hour in, and Mania making me kill myself with magnetize.

1 minute ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

You can make both have close efficiency. Vitus is a bit harder to judge what rate you gain it at (due to the existence of actual farming strats existing for it), but you can still set a baseline for your more casual player. Make Arbitrations more efficient for all I care. The SP shop will survive with ease.

I don't agree they should have close efficiency unless Arbitrations difficulty is increased or TSP difficulty is lowered. The gap in efficiency is fair for their corresponding levels of difficulty. 

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8 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Yet I don't even remember the last time I died in Arbitrations.

Meanwhile I remember every Mutalist Osprey fart and Toxic Ancient deleting me in Arbitations and having "mission failure" pop up.

10 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

and Mania making me kill myself with magnetize.

Does everyone not know you can roll out of it?

10 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't agree they should have close efficiency unless Arbitrations difficulty is increased or TSP difficulty is lowered. The gap in efficiency is fair for their corresponding levels of difficulty. 

Then have SP be more efficient for all I care ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
All I want is mods to be in a mode that I can enjoy (since I can freely pick what I want to play + have lots to kill) instead of being locked away in a mode I dislike due to poor changes to their basic mechanics for the most part, and only a trickle of enemies.

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