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Lets not nerf melee but...


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...Make better guns and buff all of the non-op kuva guns/bows we all ready have.

I know its a wacky novel idea but making better primary weapons would result in more people using them.

Also something to think about is your slogan and using "Ninja" because Ninja makes me think of melee combat not guns.

Warframe isn't like boring slow army sims like modern warfare, its a fast action combat grinder which melee just happens to be better.

Instead of being grumpy about people liking melee better, dont ner it, just make better guns and buffing the ones already out there.

Edited by (PSN)Jason_V_Jade
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problem is, if they buff guns to be as good as weapons then all content becomes easy and DE needs to buff enemies to match in which case its the same outcome as if they had nerfed melee, just with higher numbers.

lets say, a sword did 50 damage and a bullet did 10, against enemies with 100 health. if they buffed guns to say, 33 then suddenly we're killing everything way to fast, so they buff enemies health to 200. now swords are bad again, and guns are even worse off.

Edited by Miser_able
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6 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

problem is, if they buff guns to be as good as weapons then all content becomes easy and DE needs to buff enemies to match in which case its the same outcome as if they had nerfed melee, just with higher numbers.

Unless they skirt around the damage / EHP arms race. There's some things, like Arbitration drones and nullifier bubbles (not the ability-nullification part, but the shielding part), that effectively parry high-damage numbers without just being "more enemy health".

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This is just what they did when they buffed melee and nerfed enemy EHP. It led to a semblance of balance, but really only because everything was one-shotting on the starchart. But then the game was too easy so they had to add SP to give people something to do. Just crank the numbers up, that'll work! But then melee, which it turns out was buffed far more than it should have been, now overshadowed guns in SP. So now they're buffing guns to match the buffed melee, and while some meta guns might reach parity with melee in SP, the meta AoE guns getting buffed into orbit are going to absolutely dominate in everything that's not SP and melee will be "useless" in comparison on the starchart. While these changes might close the gap between guns and melee in SP, it's going to widen the gap between guns and melee everywhere else and even further widen the already-massive gap between good and bad weapons. Buffs are not the answer and have never been the answer. They just make the game an even easier baby-mode snooze-fest while making it even harder for DE to design content that doesn't rely on bullS#&$ scaling, immunity, resistances, or flat-out ignoring mechanics like Status.

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1 minute ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Ninjas used guns also explosives

Yes, however that isn't what comes to mind when one thinks of Ninjas, but fast action sword combat.

5 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

problem is, if they buff guns to be as good as weapons then all content becomes easy and DE needs to buff enemies to match in which case its the same outcome as if they had nerfed melee, just with higher numbers.

Yeah, its the old catch 22.

Make enemies harder to kill then you need stronger weapons.

However that's not what they are mad about, its the fact people liking/using melee over their weaker guns(at higher levels), not the fact we are killing enemies too fast.

Well that and not seeing their 'cool' animations, I don't use swords like umbra's(not his 4th skill) because I hate the fact they need to be sheathed and unsheathed every swing, its too slow even with fury so I use weapons like staffs and other one handed swords, point is many don't care about how 'cool' animation for the weapon is but how fast they can be used to kill the enemy.

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Sorry , I already got the bingo card crossed for " instead of nerfing 1 thing they should buff 99 other things" from a different post.

Also Stats wise the guns and melee aren't all that different it's the mods that add the power , 

Try to think from a practical perspective , of how the two are actually different.

One scales based on a rising counter , one does not. 

If you had suggested something like " how's about a combo counter for guns " I may even have agreed , but stat boosting guns is not something I see happening.

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Ah yes lets buff 300+ weapons just because melee is overtuned to all Hek.

When you have a handful of outliers the correct solution is always to address said outliers directly. Not to ignore the cause of the issue and deliberately make it worse.

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1 minute ago, trst said:

Ah yes lets buff 300+ weapons just because melee is overtuned to all Hek.

When you have a handful of outliers the correct solution is always to address said outliers directly. Not to ignore the cause of the issue and deliberately make it worse.

I am not the one who is not happy with melee/range combat. DE is.

I use Mesa as my primary Warframe and she revolves around gun play over melee combat, hell her passive gives you bonuses for not equipmening a melee weapon. I use melee only when enemies get too close or my ranged weapons no longer reliable.

10 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

If you had suggested something like " how's about a combo counter for guns " I may even have agreed , but stat boosting guns is not something I see happening.

Combos might work for fast firing weapons but will not work for slower firing weapons, that would put sniper rifles, bows, ect at the tail end of things thus I deemed it a very stupid idea and threw it out.

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13 minutes ago, MouadSaqui said:

Remove knockbacks and stagger effect from all guns, Make it fun to shoot, not a visual cluster of particles, This should solve the problem :) 

Well they already removed self harm from explosive type weapons because people couldn't figure out that standing in the blast zone was a bad idea, so sure why not.

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47 minutes ago, (PSN)Jason_V_Jade said:

...Make better guns and buff all of the non-op kuva guns/bows we all ready have.

I know its a wacky novel idea but making better primary weapons would result in more people using them.

Also something to think about is your slogan and using "Ninja" because Ninja makes me think of melee combat not guns.

Warframe isn't like boring slow army sims like modern warfare, its a fast action combat grinder which melee just happens to be better.

Instead of being grumpy about people liking melee better, dont ner it, just make better guns and buffing the ones already out there.

I think you don't undestand why melee is used and guns aren't.  Or maybe you understand and is just trying to trick people with this " never nerf, always buff" excuse.

Please, tell me how DE can make guns that use ammo, are single target and have magazine capacity to be good as a melee that can hit 10+ enemies per strike, deal thousands of damage per hit, always red crit with 100% status chance, don't use ammo, have massive attack speed AND can multiply its damage using heavy attacks.

Please, tell me how a gun can beat a melee that can do this without any nerfs to melee.

I'm waiting. Its super easy to say "buff all the guns" but you don't say what they should buff...

 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, --F--NerevarCM said:

I think you don't undestand why melee is used and guns aren't.  Or maybe you understand and is just trying to trick people with this " never nerf, always buff" excuse.

Please, tell me how DE can make guns that use ammo, are single target and have magazine capacity to be good as a melee that can hit 10+ enemies per strike, deal thousands of damage per hit, always red crit with 100% status chance, don't use ammo, have massive attack speed AND can multiply its damage using heavy attacks.

Please, tell me how a gun can beat a melee that can do this without any nerfs to melee.

I'm waiting. Its super easy to say "buff all the guns" but you don't say what they should buff...

 

If you know better, then o wise sage enlighten me on why nerfing a group of weapons is better than just making better ones in the future instead of Band-Aid fixes now?

Please o enlightened sage teach me so I may better understand and be on thy enlightened path

Edited by (PSN)Jason_V_Jade
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28 minutes ago, (PSN)Jason_V_Jade said:

Combos might work for fast firing weapons but will not work for slower firing weapons, that would put sniper rifles, bows, ect at the tail end of things thus I deemed it a very stupid idea and threw it out.

They actually do a clever thing with the melee combo system where slower-hitting attacks contribute more hits to the counter. Glaive throws, e.g., add 4 hits. Could co-opt something like that for firearms, where slower fire rates add more per hit.

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2 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

They actually do a clever thing with the melee combo system where slower-hitting attacks contribute more hits to the counter. Glaive throws, e.g., add 4 hits. Could co-opt something like that for firearms, where slower fire rates add more per hit.

That could work seeing as a thrown melee weapon is a hybrid of the two systems if you think about it

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9 minutes ago, (PSN)Jason_V_Jade said:

If you know better, then o wise sage enlighten me on why nerfing a group of weapons is better than just making better ones in the future instead of Band-Aid fixes now?

Please o enlightened sage teach me so I may better understand and be on thy enlightened path

Answer the question. How would you buff primaries to be equally strong as melees right now.

Or you don't know S#&$ and just made this thread to propagate "always buff, never nerf" mentality?

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46 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Let's see...we've been through denial, and anger, now we're on bargaining.

Two more steps until we're through the 5 stages of grief.

I went straight to acceptance because i know DE doesn't read countless threads in general that I'd make 😢

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28 minutes ago, --F--NerevarCM said:

Answer the question. How would you buff primaries to be equally strong as melees right now.

Or you don't know S#&$ and just made this thread to propagate "always buff, never nerf" mentality?

Answer my question o enlightened one.

Why must everything get nerfed instead of being fixed and better weapons over quick fixes?

Or did you just join this to promote nering everything?

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34 minutes ago, Soy77 said:

I went straight to acceptance because i know DE doesn't read countless threads in general that I'd make 😢

I think I'm currently in depression myself, the game is going to reach levels of power creep that shouldn't ever have been possible if they force those mods through...likely will have a negative cascading effect on future content too.

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2 minutes ago, (PSN)Jason_V_Jade said:

Answer my question o enlightened one.

Why must everything get nerfed instead of being fixed and better weapons over quick fixes?

Or did you just join this to promote nering everything?

Looks like you can't read too. Already explained on the first comment.

But I have some time to enlight you, pathetic one:

Melees right now are the best single target and AOE weapons in the game. They are the best status, damage and crit weapons. The only ones that reach 300%+ crit chance with one mod. 100% status chance with one mod. They don't use ammo and require WAY less investment like forma because they have stances that gives 10+ capacity and gives them innate slash procs.

Now tell me, o pathetic one, how can you make a gun better than this without nerfing melees? Aren't you the guy that started this thread? You should have some brain matter left to elaborate your idea of "buffing everything, nerf nothing".

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O enlightened one, I am but a normal man who believes not everything should be nerfed into orbit because it is better.

O enlightened one buffing just seems better for this at the moment because DE tends to screw up nerfing things.

Ember for example, they nerfed her, buffed her, nerfed her to the point they just gave her a new kit.

Is buffing better than risk breaking something?

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7 minutes ago, (PSN)Jason_V_Jade said:

Answer my question o enlightened one.

Why must everything get nerfed instead of being fixed and better weapons over quick fixes?

Or did you just join this to promote nering everything?

Ok, there's a few reasons.

1: effort:output ratio. It is far more effort for the same ultimate goal. This isn't good from both a financial standpoint or a content standpoint. DE is well aware that the game cannot survive on reworks and rebalances alone. In fact, due to the reasons discussed below, the result from buffing everything else might even be lesser than nerfing melee and more work for less reward is by all accounts a bad deal.

2: fundamentals. As @--F--NerevarCM pointed out, some weapon's cannot meaningfully be brought up without losing what makes them special or removing what makes other weapons special. You can't take the power fantasy of the Rubico - being a one-hit, one kill sniper - and buff it to have the same damage output as an AoE weapon, as AoE weapons have the benefit of practically multiplying their damage per target hit, whilst single-target weapons are functionally capped. The only alternative is to make the Rubico itself an explosive, fast-firing crowd clearer, but that removes the power fantasy expected of a sniper rifle.

3: Warframe's modding system. The mod system has several issues baked into it, mainly that the same mod setup will increase the power of a more capable weapon by a larger amount than a weaker one. The specifics are beyond me, I'm afraid, so I can't go into more detail, but this effect has been well-documented over the years, in part as it pertains to rivens. In turn, this makes every buff to base stats will bring the weapons further and further towards the point where the base maths behind the game become unsustainable.

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