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On-kill buffs only help guns that can, you know, already kill...


Kaiga
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This should be pretty obvious that guns which struggle to compete or kill at high levels aren't going to be saved by mods that reward vast #s of kills, yet mystifyingly DE seems to be going down this road.

Is this an update just for the top level guns?

Edit: because some people wanted more explanation,

Releasing new content that pushes the existing meta content to where post-nerf content used to be, is lazy game design instead of fixing the actual problems with the bulk of unused weapons.

These problems include the AoE vs single target debate, the fact that many weapons are just plain weak stats wise, were released long before current enemies/bosses, or are just plain difficult to use for not much reward.

In a common sense world you'd think these things would be being discussed in a devblog about guns, but no, the solution is to simply slap bigger numbers on the weapons people already use, in hopes of at least somewhat replicating the experience of something they nerfed, but with more loadout diversity.

Edited by Kaiga
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Most guns can actually kill, yes, that includes SP if you know how to mod properly. The issue of melee vs. guns is that melee becomes more efficient as of right now, with guns falling behind. Claiming guns can't kill is just hyperbole.

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4 minutes ago, Prexades said:

Most guns can actually kill, yes, that includes SP if you know how to mod properly. The issue of melee vs. guns is that melee becomes more efficient as of right now, with guns falling behind. Claiming guns can't kill is just hyperbole.

Exactly this. Every gun when modded right can go into SP and kill a charger or butcher if you need to get the ball rolling on the buff.

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I dunno, from what I'm getting is this is for steel path, which has high enemy spawn rates. This is my understanding on how the buffs will work out for the most part.

Lets say it takes I dunno 32 bullets to kill an enemy with a kuva karak before you can move on to the next enemy. Dont know the actual numbers and not too worried about that atm.

You now get a boost in damage that makes it 24 bullets to kill the next enemy, which gives you another buff.

Now it takes 16 bullets to kill for another buff and so on and so forth. This also makes it easier to keep the buff going since you need a lot of quick kills to maintain it.

You need to be able to kill enemies quickly in SP as to not leave yourself open to more attacks and for survival mode its for more chances for life support drops. It seems like these on kill buffs are a good way to ramp up damage and to keep you moving to the next objective/enemy throughout a mission. But doesn't flat out give you ez meme damage on the rest of the star chart.

It's not about whether or not you can kill an enemy, to me at least. Its about keeping up and taking out hordes enemies as quickly as they spawn to survive.

edit: also, if you can get a single kill with a gun on steel path to start a buff you definitely need to look up some modding guides and learn how to synergize your abilities with you weapons to get those buffs chugging like a choo choo.

Edited by TomCruisesSon
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10 minutes ago, Prexades said:

Most guns can actually kill, yes, that includes SP if you know how to mod properly. The issue of melee vs. guns is that melee becomes more efficient as of right now, with guns falling behind. Claiming guns can't kill is just hyperbole.

That's why those new galvanized mods should be on hit and not on kill. Or at least that's what I think.

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To keep my gameplay variated, I use melee, primary and secondary.

There are times I run towards an enemy while shooting then melee them when close enough. 

There are times when some of them are far too close (eg: Toxic Ancients), I melee them for a quick stun and back away while shooting.

There are times I use my pistol that is automatic, and when I noticed its not cutting it with a particularly burly enemy, I use my primary (I make my builds to compliment each other, Shotgun? Rapid fire pistol. Rifle? Semi-auto pistol. Sniper? Explosive secondary...)

Which means that... unless the enemy is from the starchart where I can use 1 weapon the whole mission, I will swap around my weapons... oh and there are the Powers too.

So, unless I'm trying to brute force through with 1 weapon, I will not use 1 weapon to kill an enemy. By the time I kill with a Primary/Secondary, I, or my team, would have already cut off some or most of their HP through any other means.

THAT seems to be the problem we are having with those like the OP. There are no other factors. No other variables. Its just you, the enemy, all alone, with no powers being used and only that singular weapon in your hands.

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2 minutes ago, TomCruisesSon said:

I dunno, from what I'm getting is this is for steel path, which has high enemy spawn rates. This is my understanding on how the buffs will work out for the most part.

Lets say it takes I dunno 32 bullets to kill an enemy with a kuva karak before you can move on to the next enemy. Dont know the actual numbers and not too worried about that atm.

You now get a boost in damage that makes it 24 bullets to kill the next enemy, which gives you another buff.

Now it takes 16 bullets to kill for another buff and so on and so forth. This also makes it easier to keep the buff going since you need a lot of quick kills to maintain it.

You need to be able to kill enemies quickly in SP as to not leave yourself open to more attacks and for survival mode its for more chances for life support drops. It seems like these on kill buffs are a good way to ramp up damage and to keep you moving to the next objective/enemy throughout a mission. But doesn't flat out give you ez meme damage on the rest of the star chart.

It's not about whether or not you can kill an enemy, to me at least. Its about keeping up and taking out hordes enemies as quickly as they spawn to survive.

Yeah, but the problem is that keeping the buff in Steel Path with most primaries and secondaries is excessively hard.

32 bullets from a Kuva Karak wouldn't do much on Steel Path enemies, at least not on its own. You may argue that you can use an ability first, yes, but then why using the Kuva Karak when your Kuva Shieldeg would kill the enemies quicker?

I think that DE should, or buff the mods we already have for primaries and secondaries, give us a Condition Overload for primaries and secondaries or make the Galvanize mods activate on hit rather than on kill.

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2 minutes ago, ElecDeathblade said:

Yeah, but the problem is that keeping the buff in Steel Path with most primaries and secondaries is excessively hard.

32 bullets from a Kuva Karak wouldn't do much on Steel Path enemies, at least not on its own. You may argue that you can use an ability first, yes, but then why using the Kuva Karak when your Kuva Shieldeg would kill the enemies quicker?

I think that DE should, or buff the mods we already have for primaries and secondaries, give us a Condition Overload for primaries and secondaries or make the Galvanize mods activate on hit rather than on kill.

Is excessively hard? We haven't even gotten to try it out yet?

I would use my karak over my shieldeg because hopefully I've kept my buff going and can still hit a lot of enemies that are further than my melee can get too.

On hit would be way too broken, even for melee standards. Any AOE or high fire rate gun would get gigantic buffs in a few seconds.

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I think the biggest issue is that they make mods that only increase already existing stats of a weapon instead of making mods which stack under a condition and resets afterwards for weapons that usually dont benefit on those stats.

Example using Crit on a non-critical weapon, they could make a mod that stacks additive Critical chance for every non-critical hit until the weapon deals a critical then resets, same for Status chance. So lets say you have a weapon with 30% Status chance but only 5% Crit chance wile its crit multiplier being good, the mod would add +5~10% each shot until you struck a crit.

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2 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

This should be pretty obvious that guns which struggle to compete or kill at high levels aren't going to be saved by mods that reward vast #s of kills, yet mystifyingly DE seems to be going down this road.

Is this an update just for the top level guns?

I only know of three WEAPONS that suck at killing.........above level 60: The stug(meme weapon), the base furis (horrible ammo capacity) and the first kunai (because first). Everything else, from the attica to the zymos can handle the job in standard star chart. 

As for Steel Path, don't forget the actual goal of SP is to bring your best load-outs to tackle the "new game plus" enemies. Even then, DE was smart enough to make rivens to allow 90% of the weapons to be useful. These new changes and adds fill the gap of the remaining 99.9%....because there's no helping the stug.

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35 minutes ago, Zyocuh said:

Exactly this. Every gun when modded right can go into SP and kill a charger or butcher if you need to get the ball rolling on the buff.

Some players always think that the heavy gunners need to be easily destroyed by every weapon and don't consider the full arsenal. Mowing down butchers and lancers take no time, even in SP, so guns will have no issues ramping up power. Just run a status weapon and a crit/raw damage weapon and have a blast.

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I had this exact thought earlier

"Oh sweat, thanks for the arcanes and stuff! Now fix guns & melee."

 

Edit:
And on a side note... if you need to add damage on every arcane, why not just buff the base stats of each gun (this exact thing was done for melee and promised for guns way back in melee 2.999)

Edited by Joezone619
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1 hour ago, Kaiga said:

Is this an update just for the top level guns?

Yes.
Melee was nerfed, you will have tedious grind for arcanes and mods and resourses just for 3-5 guns that will be used.
I told someone ingame chat month before they announced the workshop and it will be exactly like that.
So good luck in the grind I guess? ^^

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1 hour ago, Artekkor said:

Or you could damage the enemy with a secondary or melee weapon and then get a lasthit with the gun and then keep the combo going.

 

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Ooooor, get this.

You could whiddle down the weaker enemies with a few melee slashes then finish them off with your guns.

Mind blowing i know.

how dare you bring that logical thought in here! GET IT OUT! LEAVE AT ONCE, CRETINS!!

in a way, this might be beneficial as DE might finally let us instantly switch between all weapons, not just m > last gun you used and vice versa. it sounds like DMCs fighting where you have to keep switching weapons to keep your combo going. probably not gonna be enjoyable for everyone but I'm down for it, and the changes likely aren't goign to matter much in regular starchart levels anyhow; we can still use whatever gun or melee we want exclusively for a whole mission and have no problems there, but Steel Path will require knowing what to use and when for maximum effectiveness.

it's almost as if harder missions will require brainpower. what a terrifying notion!

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4 hours ago, TomCruisesSon said:

Is excessively hard? We haven't even gotten to try it out yet?

Actually, you can try it. Use your Kuva Karak that has Split Chamber (90% multishot) with whatever mods you like, without using abilities, and grab a chronometer. Go to Steel Path and kill an enemy. Start the chronometer and try killing another enemy under 20 seconds. If you can, congratulations, you have a 50% chance that Galvanized Chamber works (because the initial multishot that Galvanized Chamber gives is 80%, a 10% lower than Split Chamber, and you have to consider beefier units that are harder to kill in that 20 seconds timespan).

Still, I think we need something more powerful. In one of the dev workshops I presented a (subjective) better way to make Galvanized mods actually be able to somewhat compete with melee.

 

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3 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

how dare you bring that logical thought in here! GET IT OUT! LEAVE AT ONCE, CRETINS!!

While their assertions might be logical, I wouldn't call them practical.

There's a lot of room for error when doing that, not to mention the new and improved 4 second uptime on Arcane Merciless kind of discouraging it (unless you sacrifice a slot to run holster speed for Primary to Secondary and vice versa) and still raises the question of "Why would I put in that much effort when unga-bunga tactics with a Melee will likely STILL work?".

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24 minutes ago, (NSW)Zergmaster999 said:

Something to add onto this, but "on kill" effect do NOT trigger on kills via status dots (slash, fire, toxin, electricity, and gas procs).

Except status dots do trigger on kill conditions. Electric and Gas procs can even trigger on headshot kill conditions.

Edited by (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom
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I?m so tired of reading about "the melee nerf", "melee is dead" and that sort of stuff... They nerfed 3 freaking optionalmmods. If anyone was relying only of them, they don't know to mod. I clreaded steel path alone mostly using melee with sacrifical mods, 60/60 mods and P fury and I don't have any trouble. Besides the nerf on Glaives, there is no single nerf "to melee", wich clearly shows how bad react people when they read the word "nerf" regardless what was nerfed, it's like their eyes are seeing red after reading "nerf" and nothing else matters anymore.

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