On-kill buffs only help guns that can, you know, already kill...

[trst]

If you're running a gun that literally can not kill enemies or takes far too long to even kill trash mobs do you really think some extra damage, multishot, or crit chance would have changed that? If you run any guns that fall off that hard then you've either used a bad build, a bad weapon, or are taking your gear further into endurance levels than they are capable of.

This is such a bizarre "point" people keep trying to parrot. It makes me wonder which """content creator""" has been spouting this idea.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

27 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

Then you look at,
~
Fusilai (1.35)
~
Kunai (MK1) (1.51)
~
Oh, they FINALLY fixed that.

Kunai used to be way less then Fusilai.

~
Hikou (1.3)
~
Hikou Prime (1.25)
~
Hikou is still worse though.
~

What are the values? What are you saying?

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

Why is everyone assuming the kills for the "on kill" conditions need to come from the gun?  Can we not kill with the melee and that "kill" triggers the buff on all applicable weapons? Is a "kill" not a "kill"?

[TeaHands]

1 hour ago, ElecDeathblade said:

Actually, you can try it. Use your Kuva Karak that has Split Chamber (90% multishot) with whatever mods you like, without using abilities, and grab a chronometer. Go to Steel Path and kill an enemy. Start the chronometer and try killing another enemy under 20 seconds. If you can, congratulations, you have a 50% chance that Galvanized Chamber works (because the initial multishot that Galvanized Chamber gives is 80%, a 10% lower than Split Chamber, and you have to consider beefier units that are harder to kill in that 20 seconds timespan).

Still, I think we need something more powerful. In one of the dev workshops I presented a (subjective) better way to make Galvanized mods actually be able to somewhat compete with melee.

 

Sadly I am unable to play WF at the moment due to fun circumstance. But shaving 10% off my multishot on my usual builds wouldnt lead to much difficulty for taking out enemies. And I would definitely aim for fodder enemies before taking on beefier enemies. For maximum damage. Which shouldn't be a problem with Steel Path spawn rates.

Throw on the new arcanes and I will have an even easier time keeping it up. Then getting rid of the arbitrary rule of not using any abilities and I'll have even less trouble maintaining buffs.

[LagartoPunkarra]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Why is everyone assuming the kills for the "on kill" conditions need to come from the gun?  Can we not kill with the melee and that "kill" triggers the buff on all applicable weapons? Is a "kill" not a "kill"?

The "on kill" is by killing the enemy with the gun. It's similar to the "on hit" of Split Flights, that it only counts the hits from the arrow fired from the bow.

[Reitrix]

17 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Why is everyone assuming the kills for the "on kill" conditions need to come from the gun?  Can we not kill with the melee and that "kill" triggers the buff on all applicable weapons? Is a "kill" not a "kill"?

Possibly because the On-Kill conditional exists on the mods attached to the gun. Menaing if the gun didn't get the kill, you might not get the buff from the mod. 

This may not be the case, and we wont know for sure unless DE says something or we get hands on with it all. 

[LagartoPunkarra]

42 minutes ago, trst said:

If you're running a gun that literally can not kill enemies or takes far too long to even kill trash mobs do you really think some extra damage, multishot, or crit chance would have changed that? If you run any guns that fall off that hard then you've either used a bad build, a bad weapon, or are taking your gear further into endurance levels than they are capable of.

This is such a bizarre "point" people keep trying to parrot. It makes me wonder which """content creator""" has been spouting this idea.

Well, the worst melee in the game can handle high level enemies to a degree, while the worst primaries and secondaries do the equivalent of a breeze.

There's no mods that can fix that sadly, and DE are stuck up on not buffing primaries and secondaries in the traditional "put better stats on the weapon" way (which they actually did for the melee).

[LagartoPunkarra]

7 minutes ago, Reitrix said:

Possibly because the On-Kill conditional exists on the mods attached to the gun. Menaing if the gun didn't get the kill, you might not get the buff from the mod. 

This may not be the case, and we wont know for sure unless DE says something or we get hands on with it all. 

By looking at mods with similar conditions to trigger the effects, we assume that the effect only triggers if its achieved with the weapon that has the mod.

However, if DE decides that the effect will be trigger by any kill, then it would be a bit inconsistent with the other mods.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

5 minutes ago, ElecDeathblade said:

There's no mods that can fix that sadly, and DE are stuck up on not buffing primaries and secondaries in the traditional "put better stats on the weapon" way (which they actually did for the melee).

A bit before your time, if the join date on your profile is anything to go by, but DE did buff gun stats a while back.

[trst]

3 minutes ago, ElecDeathblade said:

Well, the worst melee in the game can handle high level enemies to a degree, while the worst primaries and secondaries do the equivalent of a breeze.

There's no mods that can fix that sadly, and DE are stuck up on not buffing primaries and secondaries in the traditional "put better stats on the weapon" way (which they actually did for the melee).

The only issue there is that such melee weapons are that powerful in the first place. Not all weapons should be viable against high-level/end game content to begin with.

And a few years ago there was a large patch that adjusted base stats on most guns while melee was left untouched until their rework.

[LagartoPunkarra]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

A bit before your time, if the join date on your profile is anything to go by, but DE did buff gun stats a while back.

Yeah, I forgot (I joined the game in 2018, left and I kept playing since 2019, but I was aware of this when I returned). Still, some primaries and secondaries need a buff or even a rework in some situations to be as viable as melee is right now. These on kill mods don't look like would make them as powerful as they need to be.

[Reitrix]

21 minutes ago, ElecDeathblade said:

By looking at mods with similar conditions to trigger the effects, we assume that the effect only triggers if its achieved with the weapon that has the mod.

However, if DE decides that the effect will be trigger by any kill, then it would be a bit inconsistent with the other mods.

IIRC, one of the Arcanes is a melee kill granting primary/secondary damage stacks. So its more likely that the mods will need to be triggered by a gun kill. 

[(PSN)thowed]

Everyone's new favorite is gonna be when you chip an enemy to almost dead and a teammate runs by and finishes it off.

[FA22_RaptoR]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)thowed said:

Everyone's new favorite is gonna be when you chip an enemy to almost dead and a teammate runs by and finishes it off.

While I almost never play open anymore, I can definitely see a lot of people kill poaching with this update. The conditional mods are not a great idea especially when guns really need serious buffs.

Look at Melee conditional mods: "On status effect" "On hit" or "60/40 percent per combo multiplier". Those are VERY easy to proc and hold even during a break in a defense mission.

I realize DE doesn't want to massively buff guns to the point where they can annihilate anything, which is WHY WE NEED THE TEST CLUSTER. How many times has the test cluster been run and then MASSIVE changes based on the feedback???

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 hours ago, Artekkor said:

Or you could damage the enemy with a secondary or melee weapon and then get a lasthit with the gun and then keep the combo going.

That’s just annoying.

[ReddyDisco]

7 hours ago, Kaiga said:

Is this an update just for the top level guns?

the rich get richer as they say

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 hour ago, Reitrix said:

Possibly because the On-Kill conditional exists on the mods attached to the gun. Menaing if the gun didn't get the kill, you might not get the buff from the mod. 

This may not be the case, and we wont know for sure unless DE says something or we get hands on with it all. 

Yeah, I figured it MIGHT be that, but it also might NOT be, and I just think the outrage here on the forums (and elsewhere) is a bit premature given that we've not yet actually used any of these mods.

Thank you for your input!

Honestly, this whole conversation feels moot.  If they change things to bring balance, we cry about how "difficult" it will make things.... but then they leave things as-is, and we complain it's "too easy".

Truth be told, there's no satisfying this community. :/ 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 hour ago, FA22_RaptoR said:

I realize DE doesn't want to massively buff guns to the point where they can annihilate anything, which is WHY WE NEED THE TEST CLUSTER. How many times has the test cluster been run and then MASSIVE changes based on the feedback???

The thing with guns vs melee, though, is in a world where they're both completely equal in power...  Guns have a HUGE advantage, in that they can kill enemies through walls, across rooms, etc....  whereas melee does not have that range... and then you'd just be back to where we're at now, just with the roles reversed. 
 

[0_The_F00l]

The mods that will be introduced will definitely make all guns a little more viable, some will be getting a bigger boost and some will be getting a lesser boost.

So i am not going to argue that it "does nothing" that would be a lie , but i am not sure it does enough to make the average gun as good as the average melee (maybe it will be after the nerfs).

taking my own example.

I dont like to use META gear, so i have a mix of non meta guns and melee that i like to use regularly that are still powerful (and some meta i use rarely) , i love my prisma grinlok for its relatively fast fire rate for a semi auto truck that always crits, the rattleguts (i have 4 from full crit to full status and in between) and my cyath zaw (cyclone kraken) thats a hybrid with amazing utility.

I also use the Corinth , basmu ,  Kuva quartakk, Trumna , Kuva Chakhurr , cyanex, ocucor, Kuva brakk , vaykor marelok rather frequently.

I dont switch my melee as often , but if i do its something like ceti lacera , sancti magistar , Jat kittag or a different zaw i feel like trying.

Let me be clear - None of them are weak - they are all strong enough with a solid build (few have rivens) to go through steel path but they arent cheese. I also pair them with frames that can do a little debuffing or damage boosting by some way and always try to get headshots.

I see all of them getting an improvement with the new update through both the arcanes and through the galvanized mods.

Where i had to melee enemies almost 80% of the time i may now need to melee them only 60% of the time to clear it at an acceptable pace (under 6 to 10 minutes per mission) using the same weapons.

So in short:

Its not to make weak guns strong , its to make situational and niche weapons more mainstream.

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

The thing with guns vs melee, though, is in a world where they're both completely equal in power...  Guns have a HUGE advantage, in that they can kill enemies through walls, across rooms, etc....  whereas melee does not have that range... and then you'd just be back to where we're at now, just with the roles reversed. 
 

In my experience, there's a rate-of-fire tradeoff. Melee does need to get closer, but once in range, can hit multiple targets at a real good rate. Most ranged weapons seem to be one or the other, either hitting at a good rate (with ARs) or hitting over a good area (with explosives). Or they're like the Nukor with limited beam range, so kind of sitting in a weird middle (and whether that middle point should exist is a whole point of contention).

So there's a sort of triangle where you have to drop either range, hit-rate, or area. Melee usually drops range, guns usually drop one of the other two.

That, plus various other things and situations that stem from those differences. Like explosive weapons not working too well in close quarters, making melee a better option if enemies get too close or happen to be around a corner. Or just matters of taste, where some people will still prefer melee because it feels nicer and is easier for them to use. There's situations where, if weapons were equal, one would still be better over another. It's just that those situations would be more moment-to-moment, instead of "Steel Path or not".

(This is mostly from lower-level missions, where my guns and melee all kill in an instant. Pretty much the closest to "equal in power" as I can get, as far as stats go.)

[Aldain]

38 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Its not to make weak guns strong , its to make situational and niche weapons more mainstream.

Honestly it isn't even a question of being mainstream.

It's a question of being remotely practical for a lot of weapon, no matter how well I mod/copy and paste my Veldt it will never be a practical solution to many situations due to inherently being a semi-auto weapon reliant on precision for a good chunk of its potential damage.

By the time I've killed 2-3 enemies with a semi-auto anything 4+ enemies have spawned to take their place, especially in most endless missions.

Cranking up the damage with Arcanes and 200% multishot will make things stronger, but I have doubts about that being able to make some things any more practical.

[ReddyDisco]

On kill requirement isn't that hard to achieve though, basic hunter moomoo + viral will net few kills on some grunt grineer and then it ramps up the dps.

Will this make guns better? yes definitely but the degree of improvement depends on the weapon since the base stats haven't been touched. like adding a strawberry to a wedding cake and a cupcake, both are better but different degree  

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Honestly it isn't even a question of being mainstream.

It's a question of being remotely practical for a lot of weapon, no matter how well I mod/copy and paste my Veldt it will never be a practical solution to many situations due to inherently being a semi-auto weapon reliant on precision for a good chunk of its potential damage.

By the time I've killed 2-3 enemies with a semi-auto anything 4+ enemies have spawned to take their place, especially in most endless missions.

Cranking up the damage with Arcanes and 200% multishot will make things stronger, but I have doubts about that being able to make some things any more practical.

Guess we will differ in our preference of practicality over feel good factor.

Its interesting that you mentioned the veldt , i tried using that similar to how i use my prisma grinlok and it feels weak and clumsy despite having similar stats.

Then again , the Grinlok has a spanking cool augment. While veldt only has an alternate zoom mode -_- with poor IPS distribution.

I foresee my p grinlok being a lot more "practical" cause it is already situationally good , now those situations can be more frequent,

The Galvanized chamber and galvanized aptitude, pair with my ability to get acceptably consistent guaranteed crit headshots and high status to proc the additional bonus should keep me at one shot one kill mode against regular enemies and two to three shot kills against heavies for my playstyle that relies or regular debuffs and CC for enemies, of course this is just theory crafting. And i plan to use my whole kit along with faction specific loadouts in SP, not just my guns with the same loadout thoughout,

but i dont think there is much hope for veldt unless you have like a really good riven for it, some weapons just wont be able to get above the minimum thresh hold for the trigger effects.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Kaiga:

This should be pretty obvious that guns which struggle to compete or kill at high levels aren't going to be saved by mods that reward vast #s of kills, yet mystifyingly DE seems to be going down this road.

Is this an update just for the top level guns?

Yes. epic fail. usable weapons will just do a little more damage. that's it!
or who plays with sniper or arcanes from deimos? that's laughable! and it was clear from the beginning that neither deimos garbage, nor these new mods and arcanes can not work at all!

[(NSW)Zergmaster999]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Except status dots do trigger on kill conditions.

That might be true for certain arcanes and mods (I'm not too certain on that), but not for weapons such as the Athodai and Pennant which have passives that need to directly kill (direct headshot kills for the Athodai and the physical heavy attack hit for the Pennant).