On-kill buffs only help guns that can, you know, already kill...

[RichardKam]

4小时前 , MonsterOfMyOwn 说:

The patch won't change much and won't change as much as it should have. I'll buy / farm the mods and arcanes, probably most if not all. I'll use the buffs but it won't make the game any better.
I think it's not too late for a lobbying to have guns buffs that don't rely on "on kill" condition. Some working that way is OK (and Deimos guns alternate fire are "on kill" and it's OK to have such gimmick for a few guns) , all guns buffs as changes advertised to rebalance melee/guns is not good.

I don't think we'll come to an agreement as you'll keep saying that these are actually buffs (which they are), and that you're a good player who is OK with them, and I'll keep saying that it's not a good gameplay that will narrow the meta and DE are cornering themselves.

You are talking about two different things: 1) gun vs melee, 2) strong guns vs weak guns (narrow the meta). The current SoP is about (1). Some people are asking for (2). For simplicity, the scope of discussion will be in steel path.

Can the current galvanized mods and arcanes achieve (1)? Yes I think so. Let's say only the top 10% guns can do SP. The remaining 90% maybe able to do so, struggle with warframe abilities and stuff, but not reliably so. With galvanized mods, once you keep the "on kill" condition rolling, maybe 40% of guns can do SP comfortably and people may find joy in using gun (because they can now) and break away from melee. It opens more options for player. I think we all agree the SoP update can do that. 

For (2), strong guns vs weak guns. In reality, you cannot do that, unless you tweak the stat of guns individually. Or you introduce mods and arcanes that modify stat based on the base stat (maybe give buff which is inversely proportional to the base stat? kind of like riven disposition?).  Or you buff everything so ridiculously strong that all of them can cheese steel path, and the only thing stopping you from using something is the fun factor. Melee 3.0 almost achieved the last goal, but there are still disparity in melee arsenal. Please see below stat after melee 3.0.

https://www.warframe.com/2020stats

Look at how many melee weapons got less than 0.5% usage even though some of them are quite OK. After melee rework, is fang prime viable? Yes. Are people using it? Yes, 6.7 out of 1000 players. But it is quite good enough already! The most used weapons are merely 5.9%, compared to guns up to 11% excluding k. nukor outlier. Of course I am aware that's because there are more melee weapons than guns so the average usage will be lower, but I believe melee is already the least skewed class of weapons in the arsenal. If you take this as an example, a flat buff across weapons making them viable in most situation actually can help reduce disparity. Not dissolving disparity, help reducing disparity.

A final note on two things. 1) the "on kill" condition. We may find another conditional trigger, but please don't use "on hit". Most rifles will max stack in one click of mouse button, which is brainless, not engaging, a direct replacement of vanilla mod, and is not fair for slow fire rate gun. "On kill" requires skill, "on hit" does not. 2) The Sister of Parvos update is not the last update in warframe. In the future there will be more re-balance. Shall we start from here and look forward?

 

[ghoti0315]

2021/6/24 AM4点16分 , Prexades 说:

Most guns can actually kill, yes, that includes SP if you know how to mod properly. The issue of melee vs. guns is that melee becomes more efficient as of right now, with guns falling behind. Claiming guns can't kill is just hyperbole.

Yeah this. Melee is more efficient, but galvanised mods never changed guns efficiency. I just don't see the advantage of adding more damage on kill when it doesn't necessarily mean more efficient.

[Krankbert]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb ghoti0315:

Yeah this. Melee is more efficient, but galvanised mods never changed guns efficiency. I just don't see the advantage of adding more damage on kill when it doesn't necessarily mean more efficient.

What exactly does „efficient“ mean here?

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Il y a 7 heures, RichardKam a dit :

A final note on two things. 1) the "on kill" condition. We may find another conditional trigger, but please don't use "on hit". Most rifles will max stack in one click of mouse button, which is brainless, not engaging, a direct replacement of vanilla mod, and is not fair for slow fire rate gun. "On kill" requires skill, "on hit" does not. 2) The Sister of Parvos update is not the last update in warframe. In the future there will be more re-balance. Shall we start from here and look forward?

"On direct hit" in warframe almost require most skill than "on kill" due to a lot of AoE weapons performing too well.

They can keep the "on kill" gimmick for the mods, but do something else for the arcanes, arcanes could affect specific category of weapons with different triggers...

Also unfortunately DE track record of good idea never polished enough is quite long (Amalgam mods, Deimos arcanes, and tbh the whole damage / status chart...), and they are also not known for their ability to balance thing (Mausolon as a default weapon compared to the newer dual decurion prisma).

So perhaps better things will come later, but maybe not.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb MonsterOfMyOwn:

"On direct hit" in warframe almost require most skill than "on kill" due to a lot of AoE weapons performing too well.

They can keep the "on kill" gimmick for the mods, but do something else for the arcanes, arcanes could affect specific category of weapons with different triggers...

Also unfortunately DE track record of good idea never polished enough is quite long (Amalgam mods, Deimos arcanes, and tbh the whole damage / status chart...), and they are also not known for their ability to balance thing (Mausolon as a default weapon compared to the newer dual decurion prisma).

So perhaps better things will come later, but maybe not.

good things appear. only extremely rarely. example would be trumna. although there was no thought to the end here either.

besides, i see no reason to produce more waste. Nobody can be brought back with that. and mr30 people will take a break until the next update.

[ghoti0315]

46分钟前 , Krankbert 说:

What exactly does „efficient“ mean here?

1. kill enemies faster
*self-explanatory. In SP you are able to hit a lot of targets using melee. Also after a certain level in endurance runs you have to use melee because your damage for guns won't be enough.

2. with the least step possible (scrolling down vs aiming for headshot)
*a lot of people I know bind scrolling down for melee attack, which makes it easier to kill people (also to save your E button)

3. with the least penalties possible (damage taking, staggers, etc)
*For example, you stagger enemies when you use melee, but you don't when using guns, so theoretically you take more damage with guns. Also if you are using AoE weapons without PSF, self-staggering is a thing

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb ghoti0315:

1. kill enemies faster
*self-explanatory. In SP you are able to hit a lot of targets using melee. Also after a certain level in endurance runs you have to use melee because your damage for guns won't be enough.

2. with the least step possible (scrolling down vs aiming for headshot)
*a lot of people I know bind scrolling down for melee attack, which makes it easier to kill people (also to save your E button)

3. with the least penalties possible (damage taking, staggers, etc)
*For example, you stagger enemies when you use melee, but you don't when using guns, so theoretically you take more damage with guns. Also if you are using AoE weapons without PSF, self-staggering is a thing

Okay. Now explain to me why adding more damage doesn’t lead to killing enemies faster in your world.

[ghoti0315]

54分钟前 , Krankbert 说:

Okay. Now explain to me why adding more damage doesn’t lead to killing enemies faster in your world.

I mean adding damage doesn't necessarily lead to faster enemy kills. For example, a gun may deal 100000 damage one shot, and another gun deals 1000000 damage one shot, but the enemy health is 10000 only. Then you don't really need more damage since you are still killing the same enemy in one shot. Also Hunter Munitions exists, so if your slash ticks are enough to kill people to begin with, you won't even need to bother shooting twice.

EDIT: Oh, also, I said something about endurance runs, right? Let's talk more about it. It isn't that easy to kill level 1000 enemies in SP with guns, right? So if you use guns and hit an enemy like hitting on a sandbag, you could eventually kill it and receive the buff, but with that time you could have killed a lot more grineers with melee. It isn't just about more damage here, but actually the conditions, what missions are you in, etc etc.

Of course I get your point, but if you could already kill people, you probably won't need that kind of mods that buffs you on kill. Even though I don't deny that some of the mods could be actually fun to play with.

And since I was talking about efficiency instead of just enemy kills, you still need to aim even if you do a bajillion damage one hit, you may still have to take that risk of, like other enemies shooting you when you are aiming.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, RichardKam said:

A final note on two things. 1) the "on kill" condition. We may find another conditional trigger, but please don't use "on hit". Most rifles will max stack in one click of mouse button, which is brainless, not engaging, a direct replacement of vanilla mod, and is not fair for slow fire rate gun. "On kill" requires skill, "on hit" does not. 2) The Sister of Parvos update is not the last update in warframe. In the future there will be more re-balance. Shall we start from here and look forward?

 

On-kill doesnt require more skill than on-hit. Both are as brainless as the other, one of them does however not work versus single targets, which makes DE pin themselves into a needed future rework incase they release more content with higher single target focus. A good middleground between the two versions that would in fact require skill compared to the other two is the simple "on headshot" trigger. Which would also work on single targets. Heck, make it a on-headshot or on-weakpoint trigger, making it useful against eidolons, ambulas, thumpers, bosses etc. However there are mobs where the simple on-headshot trigger or on-weakpoint trigger wouldnt work, since thye have neither. 

Best solution would be a percentage based chance on hit trigger. They could even make several different arcanes with a multitude of triggers to fit different weapons, playstyles and encounters. No need to go back and rework it in the future, safeguarded and ready out the door. 

The current on-kill just gives waaaay too many benefits to the already strong options, like AoE and cone based or chaining weapons. At the same time it does very little for single target sustained damage weapons. Currently none of the arcanes is really good for fully automatic single target guns. The on-melee kill trigger is probably the best choice since you get the buff passively. Merciless on-kill is just silly short and the on-headshot kill arcane can fail due to dots or a stray shot hitting the torso instead, it is also not usable everywhere or against everything.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Pretending that conditional mods will give guns meaningful buff while playing  multiplayer is disingenuous and bewildering. Solo will be the only way galvanized mods will actually work the way they are intended to work. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 59 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)YoungGunn82:

Pretending that conditional mods will give guns meaningful buff while playing  multiplayer is disingenuous and bewildering. Solo will be the only way galvanized mods will actually work the way they are intended to work. 

of course everyone has their own taste, etc. only for solo i know MUCH better games.
i only play warframe for public or if i need something specifically, i'm looking for people from the chat if it is no longer playable in publics, then i will simply not log in. I have no desire for such a mindlessness!

[Kaiga]

On 2021-06-28 at 11:43 PM, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

DE track record of good idea never polished enough is quite long (Amalgam mods, Deimos arcanes

Those deimos arcanes were dead on arrival really. They hogged valuable arcane slots in exchange for a stationary buff with a complicated setup that is already surpassed on damage output by other things.

DE should have seen the wall of negative feedback and folded the idea, but they have a tendency to just blunder forwards.