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Wait a second...new mods/buffs try to fix something in a wrong way or am i missing something?


ZeroX4

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Let me start by saying i dont follow warframe news streams whatever so i dont know if we are getting buffs to guns nerfs to melees or mods or whatever

But as i read all that threads here about upcoming update seems whatever it is its trying to fix something by not fixing it or am i wrong?

Idea is we use melee instead of guns cause melees are better?
Cause as i see it we use melees cause

- No reload time
- No ammo
- ALWAYS AOE (more or less)

So wouldnt mods buffs or whatever to guns that even further reduce reload time give us more ammo and make bullets AOE solve the problem?
Well without forcing us to use them by sacrificing output damage

Now as i understand it we will have some mods that will give us buffs to damage? But we need to satisfy some conditions like FOR EXAMPLE (after reload + 50% damage)?

Someone educate me on what we know since i think im missing something here

BUTTTTTTTTTT stil i believe we dont need more powerful weapons we all could go with rubico or vectis with our GODLY rivens and 1hit SP bastords but we dont since NO ONE WANT TO KILL ONE BY ON even if its 1hit kill where we have hoards of enemies

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I think DPS is a bigger part than anything else

If I take your points, even if a gun has no reload time, infinite ammo, & a 50m aoe, it would still be trash if it couldn't kill anything

 

Melees are better because their dps is significantly higher than guns

 

PS. You say you don't follow the upcoming updates, but I suggest you to do so before giving your opinion on something. Your feedbacks don't matter if you have no context of what you are talking about

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15 minutes ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

I think DPS is a bigger part than anything else

If I take your points, even if a gun has no reload time, infinite ammo, & a 50m aoe, it would still be trash if it couldn't kill anything

 

Melees are better because their dps is significantly higher than guns

 

PS. You say you don't follow the upcoming updates, but I suggest you to do so before giving your opinion on something. Your feedbacks don't matter if you have no context of what you are talking about

Actually i see what ppl complain about and i simply ask wouldnt it be better to change what i wrote above
And i dont see a point in following news since i hope you remember echos of umbra or whatever and where is it now?

Following updates when they land so after it happen and players complains before they do seems like better option

And about DPS that would depend on what weapon we use vectis with its damage and AOE of kuva bramma would be fine competition to any melee

BUT we would need to add into the mix lifting enemies like melee do

But then it would feel like only difference is weapon close AOE or ranged AOE i think its dead end anyway but lets see what we will get 1st

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39 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

Someone educate me on what we know since i think im missing something here

cliff notes for you:

- we know some melee mods are getting nerfed: Berserker will now be renamed to Berserker Fury, because it can no longer be used with Fury (one or the other) and it's been nerfed a bit, Blood Rush and Condition overload are also nerfed, but not in a big way. these mods will still do what they've always done but to a lesser degree: currently they make Melee scale FAR better than guns which is why melee has become meta. 

- Galvanized versions of some Mods are being added (originally to Steel Path, but now Arbitration will have them instead). these mods start out offering less benefits than the standard mod, but then upon getting a kill, they drastically increase performance to way beyond what the original mod can do. the problem people have is that the scaling only works on a kill, which at higher levels, some guns can take a while to do against anything more than cannon-fodder enemies.

- all Primary and Secondary weapons will be able to equip new Arcanes by running Steel Path and buying the slot for a weapon with your Steel Essence. the Arcanes themselves will drop from Acolytes. the main problem here is that as well as the Arcanes being kill/headshot activated only, we have to actually work for the slots, which is something we've never had to do with Zaws and Kitguns, and I'm rather against it: DE should have automatically granted all guns the slot to begin with IMO, and then it's up to the player which of their guns get the Arcanes or not.

- Glaives are all getting a nerf as they do crazy damage with some of our builds, but now it's *supposedly* goign to be easier to perform quick throws, and full power throws will take longer.

- Kuva Nukor is getting it's chaining nerfed down to just 2 targets, because people have always used it for priming Condition Overload on multiple enemies, so between this and the nerf to Condition Overload itself, this strategy will not be as viable anymore, or not at all. personally I don't think both mod and gun should have been nerfed, only one, but that's what's happened.

ultimately, all we can do as players is wait for the update and see how these changes make weapons feel. personally I think it will be a mixed bag, but no doubt somebody will find a new meta within about a week and these changes will be forgotten about.

 

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6 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

cliff notes for you:

- we know some melee mods are getting nerfed: Berserker will now be renamed to Berserker Fury, because it can no longer be used with Fury (one or the other) and it's been nerfed a bit, Blood Rush and Condition overload are also nerfed, but not in a big way. these mods will still do what they've always done but to a lesser degree: currently they make Melee scale FAR better than guns which is why melee has become meta. 

- Galvanized versions of some Mods are being added (originally to Steel Path, but now Arbitration will have them instead). these mods start out offering less benefits than the standard mod, but then upon getting a kill, they drastically increase performance to way beyond what the original mod can do. the problem people have is that the scaling only works on a kill, which at higher levels, some guns can take a while to do against anything more than cannon-fodder enemies.

- all Primary and Secondary weapons will be able to equip new Arcanes by running Steel Path and buying the slot for a weapon with your Steel Essence. the Arcanes themselves will drop from Acolytes. the main problem here is that as well as the Arcanes being kill/headshot activated only, we have to actually work for the slots, which is something we've never had to do with Zaws and Kitguns, and I'm rather against it: DE should have automatically granted all guns the slot to begin with IMO, and then it's up to the player which of their guns get the Arcanes or not.

- Glaives are all getting a nerf as they do crazy damage with some of our builds, but now it's *supposedly* goign to be easier to perform quick throws, and full power throws will take longer.

- Kuva Nukor is getting it's chaining nerfed down to just 2 targets, because people have always used it for priming Condition Overload on multiple enemies, so between this and the nerf to Condition Overload itself, this strategy will not be as viable anymore, or not at all. personally I don't think both mod and gun should have been nerfed, only one, but that's what's happened.

ultimately, all we can do as players is wait for the update and see how these changes make weapons feel. personally I think it will be a mixed bag, but no doubt somebody will find a new meta within about a week and these changes will be forgotten about.

 

I wish you could hear how i OWWWWWW while reading each of your lines

Thx for educating me i was thinking its something totally different

But in the end if it will be crappy like it sounds i believe we will get some changes since no 1 want to go backwards on his gameplay style and outrage from players will do its thing

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Like I mention everytime, I feel like the whole approach is wrong conceptually.

 

Melee, primary and secondary aren't even "variations on a theme", mechanically they do the exact same, use the same stats and conceptsm same gameplay.

Like a secondary is ultimately just a weaker primary.

I have a gun. I also have another gun, which is just weaker gun Conceptually, what was the ambition there?

 

The gameplay has to support a reason, for using a tiny pistol with 6 rounds of ammo, one way or another (which is where it's fun to be a developer, you get to be creative).

Else a pistol is just a rifle with no ammo.

 

Which coincidentally is exactly what players have been asking for. Enemy variation tied into builds, weapon concepts, modding and so on, damage types etc.

If you don't want "people spamming 'E' around the map", then it's on the game to offer gameplay, mechanics and concepts.

 

Luckily there are 50 years of fun games you can copy-paste from if you have problems coming up with gameplay ideas.

 

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28 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

And i dont see a point in following news since i hope you remember echos of umbra or whatever and where is it now?

I fail to see how this is an argument against staying up to date but ok

29 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

And about DPS that would depend on what weapon we use vectis with its damage and AOE of kuva bramma would be fine competition to any melee

Different weapons for different jobs, slow but hard hitting weapons are better for something like an Eidolon, but this is at first a horde-shooter, which is why I talked about dps specifically & not damage

Even if the Vectis is effective against Eidolons, you still have even better options, without considering Necramechs, the Stropha & RedemeerP deal much higher dps, both melees

Even so I prefer to use the Epitaph for Terry & his friends

33 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

BUT we would need to add into the mix lifting enemies like melee do

Lift on guns? Why?

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4 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

Thx for educating me i was thinking its something totally different

You didn't even know some mods were getting nerfed

Exactly why I told you staying up to date with what the devs have in mind better than ignoring it

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5 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Like a secondary is ultimately just a weaker primary.

Plenty of secondaries are strong, remember that you use them when downed, or when you have something in your hands

You can also use them on k-drives but I doubt you care about that

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1 minute ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

Plenty of secondaries are strong, remember that you use them when downed, or when you have something in your hands

You can also use them on k-drives but I doubt you care about that

Yeah the point is conceptual.

You have a gun that can fire shots. Then you have another gun... that fires shots.

 

Traditionally weapon balance is video games is based on range, shotgun vs sniper, recoil, full auto vs precision shooting and so on.

But this being a fantasy game, you really have unlimited options, you have no reason to put military weapon realism restrictions on yourself, if you are indeed a "creative designer", you'd obviously want as much 'space' to show off all your great ideas... lol.

 

A weapon, conceptually could literally be anything in this universe, with no limitations of any kind. Wasn't the story of warframe they wanted to be special and move video gaming forward, innovate and all that?

Then copy-pasting handguns with 8 pistol rounds seems rather unambitious and anti-creative.

 

The unused, unlimited creative potential lost is the real tragedy. It's the whole reason you pick a creative industry, you have a passion for actually being creative, right?

You'd assume in a game like this, things would be "out there" and over the top, like twin peaks on lsd or something. Crazy weapon concepts, where you'd want them to dial it back.

Then it's like here, have a handgun... with pistol bullets. lol. Hmmm, ok.

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2 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

You have a gun that can fire shots. Then you have another gun... that fires shots.

Absolutely not, the most recent weapons we got are the most unique we've ever gotten on top of what we already had before:

We have guns that shoots parasites that explodes on headshots, a Sentient gun that heals on reloads, a gun that creates singularities, a bow that creates an exploding freeze bubble, a cluster bomb bow, a pirate ship hand-held cannon, a micro-wave gun, a crossbow that creates ghosts on charge-shot kills, a pistol that creates a ghost of itself if you get three kills in a short time, a gun that uses you frame's blood as ammo, a gun with flying aim-bot bullets, two & a half tentacle guns, a shotgun with a built-in condition overload & glaive that spreads status, two giant arm-cannons, a gun with infinite punch-through on alt-fire, & that's not even all of them

 

No, guns in warframe are not "guns that just fire bullets". Granted, not all of them are good or useful, but you can't disregard the uniqueness of warframe's weapons

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2 minutes ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

Absolutely not, the most recent weapons we got are the most unique we've ever gotten on top of what we already had before:

We have guns that shoots parasites that explodes on headshots, a Sentient gun that heals on reloads, a gun that creates singularities, a bow that creates an exploding freeze bubble, a cluster bomb bow, a pirate ship hand-held cannon, a micro-wave gun, a crossbow that creates ghosts on charge-shot kills, a pistol that creates a ghost of itself if you get three kills in a short time, a gun that uses you frame's blood as ammo, a gun with flying aim-bot bullets, two & a half tentacle guns, a shotgun with a built-in condition overload & glaive that spreads status, two giant arm-cannons, a gun with infinite punch-through on alt-fire, & that's not even all of them

 

No, guns in warframe are not "guns that just fire bullets". Granted, not all of them are good or useful, but you can't disregard the uniqueness of warframe's weapons

 

Which globally, mechanically, conceptually translates to "running around the map spamming mb1", which allegedly was the problem with melee.

 

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15 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

 

Which globally, mechanically, conceptually translates to "running around the map spamming mb1", which allegedly was the problem with melee.

 

You know you have abilities at your disposal?

I really don't understand your logic, guns & melees (& abilities), are here to kill enemies, that's what they are for

 

What do you want exactly, new ways to kill?

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22 minutes ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

You know you have abilities at your disposal?

I really don't understand your logic, guns & melees (& abilities), are here to kill enemies, that's what they are for

 

What do you want exactly, new ways to kill?

To use your own example, conceptually it looks like:

 

Weapon 1, weapon 2, weapon 3, casting = 2 things

 

Where the problem we are debating with the current patch is trying to "make guns more like melee". And I am saying the gameplay has to connect with item seperately.

 

Tool 1, tool 2, tool 3, tool 4 = 4 things

All with different gameplay concepts as mechanics, where a "pistol is a rifle with no ammo", it has be to an actual concept that connects with the gameplay.

This problem also stretches into mods, damage types, strategy and enemy design.

I am sure you heard the cookie cutter complaint, everyone using the exact same build, for everyone weapon, and every weapon class.

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19 minutes ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

You know you have abilities at your disposal?

I really don't understand your logic, guns & melees (& abilities), are here to kill enemies, that's what they are for

 

What do you want exactly, new ways to kill?

I see you have problems understanding many things
 

Compared to how many guns we have we have few warframes and only few of them most of us use them to kill enemies
We have many guns we modded formed and we want to make use of them

And @Surbuskenis trying to explain to you that in the end you have gun that kills and you have smaller gun that also kills yet it kills either slower or have less bullets
But its more smaller gun is better option in some situations

When you have many cloths you wanna ware them so you change them often you dont go all week in your favorite hoodie and pants

We are different i can see how you fail to see that what is gold for me can be crap for you and vice-versa
You maybe use all your companions for most of us its either smeeta or carrier
But in both cases its only something that pick up loot for us

 

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13 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

Compared to how many guns we have we have few warframes

We'll have 47 frames with Yareli, how is that a few?

 

15 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

and only few of them most of us use them to kill enemies

Weapons are our main way to kill enemies, abilities have other effects than straight up damage yeah, what's your point here?

 

16 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

And @Surbuskenis trying to explain to you that in the end you have gun that kills and you have smaller gun that also kills yet it kills either slower or have less bullets
But its more smaller gun is better option in some situations

You have to remember that some guns are for newer players too, so yes they do less damage, & yes you will only see experienced players with a select group of them, this is a numbers game

But I don't think you realize the amount of weapons that are actually useful, from what I'm reading, I can only guess that in your mind, maybe five weapons in total are worth playing with

 

20 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

When you have many cloths you wanna ware them so you change them often you dont go all week in your favorite hoodie and pants

I have four of the same hoodie, bad example

 

21 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

We are different i can see how you fail to see that what is gold for me can be crap for you and vice-versa

We are different, maybe you don't get that I understand your points but just don't agree with you

 

28 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

You maybe use all your companions for most of us its either smeeta or carrier
But in both cases its only something that pick up loot for us

I only use my Panzer, I never change him, that doesn't mean I find the others companions trash

He heals me with his spore attacks, & revives me if I die. The spore themselves also spread viral which is good for condition overload & increasing damage. That's already more useful than what you listed

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2 minutes ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

We'll have 47 frames with Yareli, how is that a few?

 

Weapons are our main way to kill enemies, abilities have other effects than straight up damage yeah, what's your point here?

 

You have to remember that some guns are for newer players too, so yes they do less damage, & yes you will only see experienced players with a select group of them, this is a numbers game

But I don't think you realize the amount of weapons that are actually useful, from what I'm reading, I can only guess that in your mind, maybe five weapons in total are worth playing with

 

I have four of the same hoodie, bad example

 

We are different, maybe you don't get that I understand your points but just don't agree with you

 

I only use my Panzer, I never change him, that doesn't mean I find the others companions trash

He heals me with his spore attacks, & revives me if I die. The spore themselves also spread viral which is good for condition overload & increasing damage. That's already more useful than what you listed

Like i said in previous reply

COMPARED TO HOW MANY WEAPONS WE HAVE we have few warframes worth to kill enemies with

I mean exactly what you wrote afterwards we have so many weapons we want to use them we dont want to kill all the time with our warframes
And im a guy with MR30 that have 50% of astilla usage so believe me i know how many guns out there are useful while you see rarely someone equipped with them

I have 2 

Its not about do you agree with me or do i agree with you its about understanding that we should try to see some things from someone else perspective

I run with carrier or smeeta where carrier only because i like skin i found for him and smeeta just because my mod setup require 7 formas on beast and im too lazy to go trough it with other companions since in the end it will do exactly the same for me PICK UP LOOT

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5 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

Let me start by saying i dont follow warframe news streams whatever so i dont know if we are getting buffs to guns nerfs to melees or mods or whatever

But as i read all that threads here about upcoming update seems whatever it is its trying to fix something by not fixing it or am i wrong?

Idea is we use melee instead of guns cause melees are better?
Cause as i see it we use melees cause

- No reload time
- No ammo
- ALWAYS AOE (more or less)

So wouldnt mods buffs or whatever to guns that even further reduce reload time give us more ammo and make bullets AOE solve the problem?
Well without forcing us to use them by sacrificing output damage

Now as i understand it we will have some mods that will give us buffs to damage? But we need to satisfy some conditions like FOR EXAMPLE (after reload + 50% damage)?

Someone educate me on what we know since i think im missing something here

BUTTTTTTTTTT stil i believe we dont need more powerful weapons we all could go with rubico or vectis with our GODLY rivens and 1hit SP bastords but we dont since NO ONE WANT TO KILL ONE BY ON even if its 1hit kill where we have hoards of enemies

I think you should just read the info and ignore everyone here and on youtube.

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5 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

Let me start by saying i dont follow warframe news streams whatever so i dont know if we are getting buffs to guns nerfs to melees or mods or whatever

But as i read all that threads here about upcoming update seems whatever it is its trying to fix something by not fixing it or am i wrong?

Idea is we use melee instead of guns cause melees are better?
Cause as i see it we use melees cause

- No reload time
- No ammo
- ALWAYS AOE (more or less)

So wouldnt mods buffs or whatever to guns that even further reduce reload time give us more ammo and make bullets AOE solve the problem?
Well without forcing us to use them by sacrificing output damage

Now as i understand it we will have some mods that will give us buffs to damage? But we need to satisfy some conditions like FOR EXAMPLE (after reload + 50% damage)?

Someone educate me on what we know since i think im missing something here

BUTTTTTTTTTT stil i believe we dont need more powerful weapons we all could go with rubico or vectis with our GODLY rivens and 1hit SP bastords but we dont since NO ONE WANT TO KILL ONE BY ON even if its 1hit kill where we have hoards of enemies

The problem is and always will be scaling. 

Melee mods scale hard.
Berserker. Gladiator. Bloodrush. Weeping Wounds. Condition Overload. All of those things working together means melee damage starts out on par with guns, but rapidly scales up to permanent red crits at maximum attack speed with 500 ~ 1000% more damage per swing, which scales slash procs into absurd territory. 

Guns don't have any of that. Your bullet damage is the same 5 minutes in as it is 12 hours balls deep in an Endless mission. So enemies get harder and harder to kill while gun damage plateus as soon as the mission starts. 
The Galvanised mods and new Arcanes fix that by putting those same melee scaling conditionals onto guns, allowing you to power up the gun as you are slaughtering your way through the map. 
Like melee though, There will be a ceiling where no amount of scaling assistance will help you, at which points its time to leave anyway lol. 

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14 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

But its more smaller gun is better option in some situations
 

That is exactly how it is since secondaries have moved from being a backup in select cases or when your primary runs out of ammo to a weapon of its own that fills a role your primary or melee doesnt.

For instance, you go either AoE primary + Single Target secondary + melee, or Single Target primary + AoE secondary + melee. Different roles and different purposes. edit: Or you base it on what damage types you feel you need.

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