The solution is not to nerf melee, but to make firearms really viable and attractive. How to make viable firearms?

[Awazx]

Others have said it very well: the solution is not to nerf melee, but to make firearms really viable and attractive. How to make viable firearms? The consensus to state a no-brainer: the new Arsenal Divide mods are insufficient, only providing a band-aid on an open wound, and they don't fix the game's serious core issues. Although this proposal is surely incomplete, I make my proposal for a deep reworking of firearms that makes them an option to consider vs melee. There are 6 main points:

1) Increase the primary magazine of all weapons by a multiplier (N), where N can be 3, 5, 7 times the current magazines. No more 30-shot magazines.

2) Increase the ammunition reserve of all weapons by multiplier N, where N is 2, 3, 4 times the current values. In some cases, eliminate the need to reserve ammunition (Fulmin case). * Adjust the values according to the parameters of point 5.

3) Increase the base damage of all weapons, according to BR rank and weapon type (automatic rifle, semi-automatic, shotgun).

4) Reduce the reload times of all weapons.

5) Complete reworking of the concept of "base damage" and "status effect". In real life the effectiveness of a weapon is defined by the type of ammunition it fires. Thus, the same weapon can fire multiple types of ammunition for different purposes. With this:

5a) Base damage is defined by ammo type (mod).
5b) Status effect is defined by ammo type (mod)
5c) A weapon can only equip 1 ammo-type mod in each build slot.

Example: ┐
> New mod: Light Incendiary Piercing Ammo - Pierce armor and set your enemies ablaze. High rate of fire, 500 round magazine.

> New Mod: Heavy Incendiary Piercing Ammo - Pierce armor and set your enemies ablaze. Low rate of fire, 250 round magazine.

> New mod: Light Cryogenic Ammo - Freezes and completely stops enemies, 2.1m expansion radius, high rate of fire.

> New mod: heavy cryogenic ammo - freezes and completely stops enemies, 4.2m expansion radius, low rate of fire.

6) Allow the player to dynamically select on mission between the mod configurations of his equipped weapon (Config [1], [2] [3], in the same way that Vauban selects his ability 2 using the options wheel.

These 6 points can be improved and certainly others can be added, but they could be a step in the right direction to make firearms a viable option vs melee.

[--F--NerevarCM]

1- Melee don't use magazines

2- Melee don't use ammo

3- Melee have damage, 300%+ crit chance with one mod and 100% status chance with one mod

4- Melee doesn't have reload

5- Melee is simple, damage end hit enemy = kill

Nothing you said here will ever make Primaries even close to melee. Stop trying to find excuses and "unique" ideas to not nerf melee. Unless all guns shoot AoE rounds that clear entire rooms and always give status and red crits with no ammo usage, guns will never be better than current melee.

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, Awazx said:

Others have said it very well: the solution is not to nerf melee, but to make firearms really viable and attractive. How to make viable firearms? The consensus to state a no-brainer: the new Arsenal Divide mods are insufficient, only providing a band-aid on an open wound, and they don't fix the game's serious core issues. Although this proposal is surely incomplete, I make my proposal for a deep reworking of firearms that makes them an option to consider vs melee. There are 6 main points:

1) Increase the primary magazine of all weapons by a multiplier (N), where N can be 3, 5, 7 times the current magazines. No more 30-shot magazines.

2) Increase the ammunition reserve of all weapons by multiplier N, where N is 2, 3, 4 times the current values. In some cases, eliminate the need to reserve ammunition (Fulmin case). * Adjust the values according to the parameters of point 5.

3) Increase the base damage of all weapons, according to BR rank and weapon type (automatic rifle, semi-automatic, shotgun).

4) Reduce the reload times of all weapons.

5) Complete reworking of the concept of "base damage" and "status effect". In real life the effectiveness of a weapon is defined by the type of ammunition it fires. Thus, the same weapon can fire multiple types of ammunition for different purposes. With this:

5a) Base damage is defined by ammo type (mod).
5b) Status effect is defined by ammo type (mod)
5c) A weapon can only equip 1 ammo-type mod in each build slot.

Example: ┐
> New mod: Light Incendiary Piercing Ammo - Pierce armor and set your enemies ablaze. High rate of fire, 500 round magazine.

> New Mod: Heavy Incendiary Piercing Ammo - Pierce armor and set your enemies ablaze. Low rate of fire, 250 round magazine.

> New mod: Light Cryogenic Ammo - Freezes and completely stops enemies, 2.1m expansion radius, high rate of fire.

> New mod: heavy cryogenic ammo - freezes and completely stops enemies, 4.2m expansion radius, low rate of fire.

6) Allow the player to dynamically select on mission between the mod configurations of his equipped weapon (Config [1], [2] [3], in the same way that Vauban selects his ability 2 using the options wheel.

These 6 points can be improved and certainly others can be added, but they could be a step in the right direction to make firearms a viable option vs melee.

[ZenHare]

25 minutes ago, --F--NerevarCM said:

3- Melee have damage, 300%+ crit chance with one mod and 100% status chance with one mod

Only true if the weapon has a base crit chance of around 40% to begin with and there is just one weapon with that. You are going to have to use another crit mod, riven or pet to get that. Plus, crit isn't the source of the massive DPS increase. That elephant in the room is called Condition Overload. Either you give similar mods to primaries and secondaries or nuke CO. Those are you two choices and the first is a really bad idea.

[Loza03]

Some counterpoints.

1 hour ago, Awazx said:

1) Increase the primary magazine of all weapons by a multiplier (N), where N can be 3, 5, 7 times the current magazines. No more 30-shot magazines.

For one, Magazine/Ammo capacity is a valuable balancing tool. Things like the Bramma can and have been brought in line simply by saying "Ok, these are super strong, but you can't use them literally all of the time in literally every situation because you don't have enough shots for that'. One of Melee's issues is that it doesn't have that 'dial' as it were.

For another, a core part of the fantasy of some weapons is their ammo capacity. Specifically, things like the Vasto or the Vectis - the Vasto is a six-shooter, and the Vectis is a tennofied version of a classic bolt-action rifle, akin to the weapons found in games like TF2. Multiplying ammo capacity would remove something from these weapons.

1 hour ago, Awazx said:

2) Increase the ammunition reserve of all weapons by multiplier N, where N is 2, 3, 4 times the current values. In some cases, eliminate the need to reserve ammunition (Fulmin case). * Adjust the values according to the parameters of point 5.

As above, so below. Limited ammo capacity is a core balancing dial. Consider such classic weapons like the SPNKR rocket launcher from Halo or the detachables turrets.

1 hour ago, Awazx said:

3) Increase the base damage of all weapons, according to BR rank and weapon type (automatic rifle, semi-automatic, shotgun).

Two issues.

1: Warframe's mod system rewards higher base stats more than weaker ones. That is to say, the amount of benefit a stronger weapon gets is proportionally larger than what a weaker one gets. In so many words, doing this means more balancing nightmares down the line. Warframe's maths starts to break down, and boosting damage without thought would cause this.

2: This heavily favours launchers or other AoE's, so we just go back to the bramma/catchmoon meta. AoE weapons functionally multiply the amount of damage they do per enemy hit, whereas single target weapons functionally have a cap in the form of their single enemy's maximum health bar. This means that you can't buff a single-target gun as much as an AoE gun, and sweeping changes like this are short-sighted.

1 hour ago, Awazx said:

4) Reduce the reload times of all weapons.

I'll admit, a balance pass on this wouldn't be remiss. Reloads are another valuable dial, but more so than other stats, some weapons probably don't deserve their long reloads.

1 hour ago, Awazx said:

5) Complete reworking of the concept of "base damage" and "status effect". In real life the effectiveness of a weapon is defined by the type of ammunition it fires. Thus, the same weapon can fire multiple types of ammunition for different purposes. With this:

5a) Base damage is defined by ammo type (mod).
5b) Status effect is defined by ammo type (mod)
5c) A weapon can only equip 1 ammo-type mod in each build slot.

So, like Monster Hunter? It's worth noting that, even though bowguns and bows are powerful, versatile and safe weapons, they're substantially less popular and unfortunately, this is one of the reasons why. It's a very complicated system that puts a lot more load on the player. It's fun, but it's also worth noting that Monster Hunter is, even in it's most recent, most high-speed game yet, Rise, still a much more methodical franchise than Warframe.

This'd also likely require extreme technical changes back-end as well to facilitate, especially on-the-fly build swapping (which, by the way, what button would that even get mapped to on a controller? Or even a keyboard, taking ergonomics into account?)

Having said that, I do agree that seperating damage types and status effects would be a positive change, done well. Just not in this respect.

[DrivaMain]

The only way to buff fire arms to melee levels is to include AoE on all weapons. You can't do that, it will only kill any weapon variety this game has. No matter how much damage you give damage to a single target weapons it still cannot compete with AoE and Melee. 

Stop avoiding the nerf. It's inevitable at this point.

[quxier]

10 hours ago, --F--NerevarCM said:

1- Melee don't use magazines

2- Melee don't use ammo

4- Melee doesn't have reload

Melee doesn't use those but it has other things:

- melee speed

- stance or weapon type melee speed of each combo

- heavy attack wind up speed

- locks (e.g. after heavy attack - you can roll)

You can increase first 2 into ridiculous speed. Other 2 are not so susceptible to change - you can put 2 mods for Wind up speed but those weapons with low speed will still have low Heavy attack speed.

By limiting first 2 you can make guns "close to melee".

10 hours ago, --F--NerevarCM said:

Nothing you said here will ever make Primaries even close to melee. Stop trying to find excuses and "unique" ideas to not nerf melee. Unless all guns shoot AoE rounds that clear entire rooms and always give status and red crits with no ammo usage, guns will never be better than current melee.

That's not true. with much lower reload speed, higher damage you can melt most enemies. I think it's "close enough".

There is no need to nerf melee (except some limits as mentioned above). If there is no huge difference in normal* content then there need for nerf.

* normal content = NOT level 9999 or other stupid numbers

[George_PPS]

On 2021-06-23 at 4:38 PM, Awazx said:

Others have said it very well: the solution is not to nerf melee, but to make firearms really viable and attractive. How to make viable firearms? The consensus to state a no-brainer: the new Arsenal Divide mods are insufficient, only providing a band-aid on an open wound, and they don't fix the game's serious core issues. Although this proposal is surely incomplete, I make my proposal for a deep reworking of firearms that makes them an option to consider vs melee. There are 6 main points:

1) Increase the primary magazine of all weapons by a multiplier (N), where N can be 3, 5, 7 times the current magazines. No more 30-shot magazines.

2) Increase the ammunition reserve of all weapons by multiplier N, where N is 2, 3, 4 times the current values. In some cases, eliminate the need to reserve ammunition (Fulmin case). * Adjust the values according to the parameters of point 5.

3) Increase the base damage of all weapons, according to BR rank and weapon type (automatic rifle, semi-automatic, shotgun).

4) Reduce the reload times of all weapons.

5) Complete reworking of the concept of "base damage" and "status effect". In real life the effectiveness of a weapon is defined by the type of ammunition it fires. Thus, the same weapon can fire multiple types of ammunition for different purposes. With this:

5a) Base damage is defined by ammo type (mod).
5b) Status effect is defined by ammo type (mod)
5c) A weapon can only equip 1 ammo-type mod in each build slot.

Example: ┐
> New mod: Light Incendiary Piercing Ammo - Pierce armor and set your enemies ablaze. High rate of fire, 500 round magazine.

> New Mod: Heavy Incendiary Piercing Ammo - Pierce armor and set your enemies ablaze. Low rate of fire, 250 round magazine.

> New mod: Light Cryogenic Ammo - Freezes and completely stops enemies, 2.1m expansion radius, high rate of fire.

> New mod: heavy cryogenic ammo - freezes and completely stops enemies, 4.2m expansion radius, low rate of fire.

6) Allow the player to dynamically select on mission between the mod configurations of his equipped weapon (Config [1], [2] [3], in the same way that Vauban selects his ability 2 using the options wheel.

These 6 points can be improved and certainly others can be added, but they could be a step in the right direction to make firearms a viable option vs melee.

High round of magazines and other suggestions are great ideas and these are fundamental updates to gun's mechanics Unless melee's virtual unlimited "ammo", almost all current guns have very limited mag sizes and LONG loading times that all need to be cut down in addition to the newly added mods and arcanes to buff them. it's unfortunately, some designers in DE decide to nerf melee and slightly buff guns to "balance". We don't need these kind of pseudo balance, we need real buffs and no nerfs and no annoying staggers implemented everywhere since melee 3.0, which not only nerfs melee's damages and also destroys many great mechanics of melee weapons.  

[Awazx]

hace 37 minutos, George_PPS dijo:

We don't need these kind of pseudo balance, we need real buffs and no nerfs and no annoying staggers implemented everywhere since melee 3.0, which not only nerfs melee's damages and also destroys many great mechanics of melee weapons.  

Completely agree. I really don't understand all the negativity this post has received.