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DE i love you, dont follow world of warcrafts downfall


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to its decline WoW has spent quite some time on systems and content that it then leaves to be irrelevant and unfinished as they then create another system, rather then focusing on development of core content and systems. 

watch any game downfall do this, focus too much on content and systems that will be rendered irrelevant. take destiny 2 seasons, they focus on repeatable activities and systems that they then remove after the season is over. man power and dev time went into that, and the content was just removed, that loop is unsustainable and leads to burn out for everyone involved. 

-steel path is nice because it uses the broad content warframe has developed up to this point. (im sure the dev time that took to create vs the play time it gave was far more efficient then any of the open worlds)

-liches also make use of all that content for obvious reasons. 

 

one of the great things about warframe in a simple example, is that planets drop multiple resources, this means if your farming for one resource, you get some of others, this snowballs when you need something else, oh you already farmed 3 of the 4 resources needed so go and target farm another, and get some others, rinse and repeat, its great.

the bad version was open world zones, in an effort to either force grind of the new content or remove the advantage of pre stockpiled resources you turned them into islands, they don't interact with the broad content of the game, meaning once your done with them, there is no reason to return. had they had at least half of the resources been traditional star chart resources people that enjoy that content could interact with it while still making progress within the broader content of the game.

almost every open world and railjack of sectioned off resources that i assume is to once again either force grind of the new content or remove the advantage of pre stockpiled resources.

 

a VERY rich person once said don't focus on profits, simply make your product the best, profit will follow.

 

rather then locking rewards behind resources, content, and systems that force our interaction with them, and cause behind the scenes metrics to be skewed (look 100% of our players are doing this content, they must love it! no you put a required resource behind it, without that resource nobody would do it. . .) 

 

-please stop making so many new systems, and perhaps continue expansions of previous tile sets and broad content. (literally every tile set past Jupiter is a dated slog) 

-please stop creating loot islands, at least half of new content should be traditional resources. (yes less up front interaction, better long term interaction)

-please stop forcing specific content interactions through rewards. (if I put $100 at the top of 200 steps of stairs, and everyone walks up them to get it, does that mean climbing stairs is fun?)

 

the difference between if something is a grind or not is simply enjoyment. people will play for hours if they are having fun. (insert don't waste our time, let us waste our time)

 

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I'm sure whatever happened to wow totally applies to warframe.

Sooo, basically, if we followed your ideas, we'd have nothing but variations of basic starchart missions, sounds thrilling.

 

Also it's so easy to complain abour content island, it's just a little less easy to figure out why they did it that way.

Island ressources are the only way to make veterans farm new areas. Because if there weren't such ressources, either veterans could craft everything from the new update with barely setting foot in it, or the prices would have to be so high, to account for their massive stockpiles, that new players would need months of grinding ressources to get there.

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1 minute ago, Fallen77 said:

I'm sure whatever happened to wow totally applies to warframe.

Sooo, basically, if we followed your ideas, we'd have nothing but variations of basic starchart missions, sounds thrilling.

 

Also it's so easy to complain abour content island, it's just a little less easy to figure out why they did it that way.

Island ressources are the only way to make veterans farm new areas. Because if there weren't such ressources, either veterans could craft everything from the new update with barely setting foot in it, or the prices would have to be so high, to account for their massive stockpiles, that new players would need months of grinding ressources to get there.

While technically correct the reasoning is wrong. any veteran will blaze through most anything with so much speed that most any barrier is worthless. However OP is also correct in that if content is too isolated it doesn't balance out with alot of stuff in the base game making it worthless.

As a example i can crush any solaris mission, but it's only reward is allowing you to use archguns in normal missions. while im sure whipping out the mausolon would be a boost it isnt so much better that it justifies rushing through solaris, or even playing it really. K-drives don't help either as i have archwings, moas mean nothing as the system it too simplistic, they're worst than my sentinals, and ugly. this nullifies alot of my interest in the orb vallis content island.

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I get what you are saying, but this is basically a lost cause at this point. 

I pounded on this YEARS ago. Many years. It isn't going to happen. DE is not going to stop pounding out new stuff we never asked for like Necramechs and fix the systems already in the game. 

DE is caught in an endless cycle of trying to please their investors by constantly releasing NEW content, in the hopes to attract big bucks from the whale players and keep the whale investors like Tencent (not primarily a Chinese company btw, but South African) happy. Not just fixing old stuff, or polishing the eleventy billion things they already added to the game, like Lunaro (LMAO!), but actually adding new things to the game, because its the only thing that pleases the big investors and the CEO's and gets big returns from the whales (which is what pleases the big investors and such). Warframe is a somewhere in the 100's of millions in terms of money amounts of games, at least in gross profit, I'm not sure anyone has access to their actual net.

Point is, an EFF-Load of real money is being used in hopes of a really big return, and a lot of that money technically belongs to majority investors, who contrary to popualar belief, do not give an EFF about the day to day operations of WF, but DO want to see a RETURN on their investment. 

 

 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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DE will do whatever it takes to keep their investors happy, and for the most part it means new content HAS to keep releasing. the best we can hope for is that with enough nagging on our part, DE will try to rework one old piece of content for every new one they add: IMO that would be the best way to go, and Sisters of Parvos is sort of doing that by giving us more Liches and improving the system, as well as improving gunplay and Steel path rewards etc. while still adding the new Warframe Yareli which will no doubt bring in a nice amount of income. (probably why they made her so "kawaii"). 

it also means if you're not particularly hyped for the new stuff, you can still be happy knowing that something older will get improved as well.

 

Edited by (PSN)robotwars7
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37 minutes ago, Dairaion said:

While technically correct the reasoning is wrong. any veteran will blaze through most anything with so much speed that most any barrier is worthless. However OP is also correct in that if content is too isolated it doesn't balance out with alot of stuff in the base game making it worthless.

As a example i can crush any solaris mission, but it's only reward is allowing you to use archguns in normal missions. while im sure whipping out the mausolon would be a boost it isnt so much better that it justifies rushing through solaris, or even playing it really. K-drives don't help either as i have archwings, moas mean nothing as the system it too simplistic, they're worst than my sentinals, and ugly. this nullifies alot of my interest in the orb vallis content island.

600,000 Rubedo is worthless and it's from the base game.

And Solaris missions have way more rewards than being able to use an archgun....

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4 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

600,000 Rubedo is worthless and it's from the base game.

And Solaris missions have way more rewards than being able to use an archgun....

Op is arguing being able to do something with that 600,000 rubedo instead of coming up with new red rocks you have to actively mine to get new things with because end game content looks bad to investors.

Solaris missions do have alot of rewards, like mods and money. due to the small rewards by comparison to the other things i already have from back when they intended to make a end game (before Sumto) i don't care, but hey, you do you.

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)ONI Prowess said:

watch any game downfall do this, focus too much on content and systems that will be rendered irrelevant. take destiny 2 seasons, they focus on repeatable activities and systems that they then remove after the season is over. man power and dev time went into that, and the content was just removed, that loop is unsustainable and leads to burn out for everyone involved. 

As long as they're making money out of those seasonal content those man power and dev time aren't being wasted.

The new seasonal content, at best, will occupy a player for about 2 months before it starts slowing down. That slow is actually good for the players because that's their resting period from the grind and when the next season rolls in they'll be invigorated to do grind all over again.

While removing the weapons/armor may cause an uproar, I don't think anyone would mind if the activity itself gets removed for two reasons.

  • After getting everything I wanted, I have no reason to go back to it. Even though Season of the Chosen (previous season) introduced 6 new weapons in their Battlegrounds activity I've been using 3 of them for the current season.
  • Even if you missed the season to get those weapons, they'll make a return in the future. I didn't purchase Season of the Worthy (S10, 3/10/2020 - 6/9/2020) and missed out on the Seventh Seraph weapons. They got into the world loot pool in the Season of the Hunt (S12, 11/10/2020). I got each of the Seventh Seraph weapons (6), but only 3 of them are on reserve.

The point that I'm getting is that it being new is enough to keep people coming back. In theory that forced grind should and kind of is deterring players from the game, but a good portion is behaving against that theory. A very noticeable number of users in the forums are really against the Galvanized mods to only be obtainable in Arbitrations. But the moment they buy it from other players that's it, they just gave reason for players who are willing to do it to continue to do it.

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54 minutes ago, Dairaion said:

K-drives don't help either as i have archwings, moas mean nothing as the system it too simplistic, they're worst than my sentinals, and ugly. this nullifies alot of my interest in the orb vallis content island

Part of the problem here is that I think you've lost sight of what it means to play a game. sure, we all grind for rewards for various inexplicable reasons, but ultimately we are playing for fun.

I rediscovered k-drives as i was grinding for MR. Turns out they're (well, many of the races at least) are quite fun. Its not going to be my go-to entertainment for a long while, but I no longer avoid them. As a bit of fun, they have value. I know many people hate their very existence as they are a meaningless grind for no loot, that's a problem in itself.

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27 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

Part of the problem here is that I think you've lost sight of what it means to play a game. sure, we all grind for rewards for various inexplicable reasons, but ultimately we are playing for fun.

I rediscovered k-drives as i was grinding for MR. Turns out they're (well, many of the races at least) are quite fun. Its not going to be my go-to entertainment for a long while, but I no longer avoid them. As a bit of fun, they have value. I know many people hate their very existence as they are a meaningless grind for no loot, that's a problem in itself.

thats true but my fun comes from cosmetics more at this point, the combat is rather stiff.

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb Dairaion:

thats true but my fun comes from cosmetics more at this point, the combat is rather stiff.

Cosmetics can hardly compensate for anything when action is the same and enemy AI is very primitive.

cosmects would only work if it was a pvP game. there are other goals.

Edited by Battle.Mage
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2 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

Cosmetics can hardly compensate for anything when action is the same and enemy AI is very primitive.

cosmects would only work if it was a pvP game. there are other goals.

When talking about AI I always wonder about dog days and the AI these guys have seems more advanced than normal enemies. They strafe, jump, bullet jump etc. Of course it's not mind blowing, but compared to default AI who just runs at you and stands still and shoots it's a lot better.

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1 minute ago, RazerXPrime said:

When talking about AI I always wonder about dog days and the AI these guys have seems more advanced than normal enemies. They strafe, jump, bullet jump etc. Of course it's not mind blowing, but compared to default AI who just runs at you and stands still and shoots it's a lot better.

i beat them very easily by staying in a constant state of slide, for some odd reason they find it harder to hit no matter how slow. haven't played dog days in two weeks.

 

7 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

Cosmetics can hardly compensate for anything when action is the same and enemy AI is very primitive.

cosmects would only work if it was a pvP game. there are other goals.

it doesn't compensate though, i try to experience the fringe concepts i ignored like dojo decoration or predasites but i just get bored and watch youtube instead. i literally started power leveling my MR out of desperation.

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1 hour ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I pounded on this YEARS ago. Many years. It isn't going to happen. DE is not going to stop pounding out new stuff we never asked for like Necramechs and fix the systems already in the game.

Fix the system
:DE_Drake_No:

Spend months on new shiny to exacerbate the problem
:DE_Drake_Yes:

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I think they dream of not having to do what they are doing.

Just reality is something like railjack died twice in a row, where it's hard to find gameplay carried just on pure fun.

 

I also do agree with the farmed resources you can't use, or sell, or trade, or convert.

Again they don't have any answers for it, it shouldn't be that way but they didn't know what else to do.

And if you tried doing something with it, what could you offer those players? Endo, credits, frames? People who played long enough are really just looking for kuva to roll rivens on I guess?

Maybe that's the answer? lol.

Allow players to exchange any previously farmed resource for kuva, then add kuva to the loot table everywhere, maybe some type of rare kuva-sculpture too for more kuva, whatever numbers that could make people actually play the content.

I don't know if people like that idea, I am just saying the problem is also people already have everything, so what can you offer them.

 

Maybe the helminth expansion should have been a stats increase for warframes costing crazy resources, so you get a sense of purpose and progression tied into all loot you earned.

Or maybe some type of helminth player crafting, where you could use old resources to craft something you could sell to other players?

 

 

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7 hours ago, (XBOX)ONI Prowess said:

to its decline WoW has spent quite some time on systems and content that it then leaves to be irrelevant and unfinished as they then create another system, rather then focusing on development of core content and systems. 

During my 8 years playing WoW I never experienced this once. What I did see were ballsy moves that involved massive changes to the game, like revamped skills and talent trees etc. Which is something DE surely could learn something from. WoW has been pretty good for making old content worth visiting again, even if it was just for cosmetic vanity changes, but they also introduced systems where you revisited old content at higher levels with updated rewards.

If anything I'd say DE is going the half finished route with many things. Like not interlinking systems, with star chart, arbitrations, liches, fissures and steel path being 5 different things instead of having Star Chart and Steel Path as difficulty setting and then have arbi, liches and fissures under each of them, possibly with the option of Steel Path Lich Void Fissures aswell or Steel Path Arbi Void Fissures. Making it all less islandish.

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14 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I get what you are saying, but this is basically a lost cause at this point. 

I pounded on this YEARS ago. Many years. It isn't going to happen. DE is not going to stop pounding out new stuff we never asked for like Necramechs and fix the systems already in the game. 

DE is caught in an endless cycle of trying to please their investors by constantly releasing NEW content, in the hopes to attract big bucks from the whale players and keep the whale investors like Tencent (not primarily a Chinese company btw, but South African) happy. Not just fixing old stuff, or polishing the eleventy billion things they already added to the game, like Lunaro (LMAO!), but actually adding new things to the game, because its the only thing that pleases the big investors and the CEO's and gets big returns from the whales (which is what pleases the big investors and such). Warframe is a somewhere in the 100's of millions in terms of money amounts of games, at least in gross profit, I'm not sure anyone has access to their actual net.

Point is, an EFF-Load of real money is being used in hopes of a really big return, and a lot of that money technically belongs to majority investors, who contrary to popualar belief, do not give an EFF about the day to day operations of WF, but DO want to see a RETURN on their investment. 

 

 

I think you're leaving out the portion of the playerbase that also shouts for "new content" and whines about if older content is revisited cause its not new. Which goes to a general issue in that the community itself is a major factor in pulling DE in various directions depending on who cries the loudest. The Jupiter refresh I loved and I'd love to see more tiles done in that vein (Derelict tiles for instance), however there's a loud nonstop whining section of people demanding new stuff and/or "endgame/difficulty" b.s. over any refreshes. I'd love to see bosses given the Jackal treatment aka refreshed as well. However once again while I want that, there's the nonstop whining section crying about something else and DE trying to bend in a thousand different ways to appease everyone. There's obvious corp aspects but ignoring the playerbase side of things is misleading to grasping the whole picture; especially since DE hasn't shown anything close to jumping into predatory "focused on profit" vein of doing f2p. I swear people really need to interact with actual mmo's that are like that cause clearly there's a lot of ignorance in place with regards to that in trying to paint DE as any vein of that.

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hace 13 horas, Battle.Mage dijo:

Cosmetics can hardly compensate for anything when action is the same and enemy AI is very primitive.

cosmects would only work if it was a pvP game. there are other goals.

Enemy AI is not a big problem, they could make the most sophisticated AI and it wouldn't change anything since we kill the enemies before their AI can react, you can put rival enemy factions to fight in the simulacrum and you can see that they aren't that primitive.

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Exactly. Players spend tens or even hundreds of hours to grind certain items or spend thousands of platinum to acquire Mods and items in game. Then DE nerfs or kills it for the sake of “balancing”. Have you noticed the pattern? This is extremely disrespectful to the players who spend time and plat in the game. 

Edited by George_PPS
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If just for a moment I side with DE, and think like them, I could say; "... Be that as it may, this way of doing things led us to success and earned us more than 50kk registered players."

In other words, DE will not do anything to change the way he does things, because he surely is convinced that he is doing the right thing. They are right and you are not.

I suspect that it must be something like this what is happening, because as someone else said in this post, we have been asking for things similar to what you say OP for years, but the results are always the same: DE finally does what it wants and the players they have no choice but to accept it.

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vor 8 Stunden schrieb chofranc:

Enemy AI is not a big problem, they could make the most sophisticated AI and it wouldn't change anything since we kill the enemies before their AI can react, you can put rival enemy factions to fight in the simulacrum and you can see that they aren't that primitive.

how's that? if you program AI like in a pvp game, you will hardly hit an opponent. especially jumping opponents who also crouch and frantically avoid left-right ... above all, they would usually camp from a maximum distance with the nulli bubble in their backs. even if your aoe weapon has enough range and the bubble breaks, then the whole group takes cover. and there are a lot more fun tactics ....

good AI has nothing to do with pink pony ........

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20 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

how's that? if you program AI like in a pvp game, you will hardly hit an opponent. especially jumping opponents who also crouch and frantically avoid left-right ... above all, they would usually camp from a maximum distance with the nulli bubble in their backs. even if your aoe weapon has enough range and the bubble breaks, then the whole group takes cover. and there are a lot more fun tactics ....

good AI has nothing to do with pink pony ........

I mean sure, but that would be stupid.

Plus, we have AI-off buttons in the form of CC.

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the fact that I spent a week and a half trying to get all weapons from deimos and still need tons of scintillants shows a lot about DE's philosophy of making warframe, I just want the damn weapons that's all, I personally think Warframe crafting system needs a complete overhaul for this particular reason...

as for world of warcraft, the game died many years ago when they removed the social aspect from it, people are moving on to play other games and that's understandable, I think FF14 is an example of a good mmorpg that belongs to 2021. 

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21 minutes ago, MouadSaqui said:

the fact that I spent a week and a half trying to get all weapons from deimos and still need tons of scintillants shows a lot about DE's philosophy of making warframe, I just want the damn weapons that's all, I personally think Warframe crafting system needs a complete overhaul for this particular reason...

Dude, what? You need 33 in total fore everything that requires it: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Scintillant

Everytime you do a vault (arcana or regualr) there is a really high chance of one to apear in a room. Memorize it and repeat the bounty, the same Scintilliant will appear at the same spot (and sometiems you find more than one), and this isn't even taking intoa ccount the ones that drops from the bounties itself... 

Just wow...

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