Nyx reworks

[broken_knee]

Nyx is an old frame with outdated abilities, the newer warframes have her abilities but improved by 3x, plus her abilities don't have almost any synergy with the other ones as if they worked independently, for those reasons a rework for is really needed.

Mind Control

This ability is complete garbage, one proof is that its augment gives 300%+ damage which is absurd and still does nothing. In my honest opinion, this ability should be completely reworked or give it a massive change, like: make it function like a statstick, make the enemies shoot themselves, make it an AoE ability, when psychic bolts land on mind controlled enemies, they will now "spread" them or simply change it all, you could also leave it that way so it's her "bad ability" but it seems kinda scuffed.

Psychic Bolts

This ability is really good and should be her subsumed, the problem is that the number of bolts don't scale with any stat and the fact that you need power strength for it to work makes it hella contradictory with her other abilities, my suggestion is that her armor strip now scales with other stats let's say ability duration, make the number of bolts scale with range and enemies affected by chaos get more strip. Her augment should be innate on this ability, or a better choice would be, enemies that leave her bolts will get mind controlled.

Chaos

This ability is good...... i'm just kidding, there are many other frames that do that same thing but better, want examples? ok, Oberon's 2 and 4, Loki's 4 augment, Wisp's electric mote, Frost, Equinox, Banshee, etc. There are good changes: make it so enemies get a damage vulnerability and maybe scaling with strength so there is a reason for it other than psychic bolts, decrease their accuracy, damage reduction, mind controlled enemies deal more damage on enemies with chaos and, again, her augment should also be innate because enemies keep spawning and you have to recast it several times.

Absorb

This ability is either really good or really bad, if you're modding for assimilate, then say bye bye to the other abilities and even if you mod it for its original purpose it's still going to be bad for several reasons, enemies move and you don't, range is terrible, enormous energy cost and you will almost run out of energy before you can accumulate enough damage just to name a few. I could think of a few fixes, greatly increase its range, enemies affected by chaos will be "attracted" to it, more damage absorb, delete the terrible feature that gives 8 more energy per second with 100k damage stored, decrease its energy cost, you can use your chaos while in it and maybe give it a cool animation, and damage dealt to it is multiplied with the amount of enemies on chaos.

These changes might be too op but i'm not an expert on stats and they could be balanced. I would like to hear your opinions and thoughts about it

[Leqesai]

3 hours ago, broken_knee said:

Psychic Bolts

This ability is really good and should be her subsumed, the problem is that the number of bolts don't scale with any stat and the fact that you need power strength for it to work makes it hella contradictory with her other abilities, my suggestion is that her armor strip now scales with other stats let's say ability duration, make the number of bolts scale with range and enemies affected by chaos get more strip. Her augment should be innate on this ability, or a better choice would be, enemies that leave her bolts will get mind controlled.

Hella contradictory?

Come on, dude... You're full of it. Psychic Bolts do full strip with only 25% power strength. This is hardly an issue... If you can't pull 125% power strength on your Nyx loadout then that's on you. The base range of 60m is also really huge so you don't need to go crazy with Overextended or anything..

[Infirito]

Nyx does need her kit fixed, but whatever you're suggesting I strongly disagree with. Maybe play her more to actually understand the frame and how abilities work together in different builds? I've posted about her issues before (so did other people), not gonna repeat it here, there's no point anyway, after last Nyx "rework" I don't expect anything from DE.

And just for perspective, Nyx is my favourite and the most played frame.

[wizardeiges]

Nah. Nyx is perfectly fine.  Easily one of my favorite frames.

Skill 1:Turret. Imagine umbra aim botting for you but you can instead turn anything into a aim botting turret.
Skill 2:6x 100% armor and shield strip that is so effortless because it heat seeks. It isn't a armor eater. It's a "defense" eater and easily one of the best ways to weaken a enemy in this game. It's so easy to max it out too.
Skill 3 :Panic button that forces everything to kill their allies and with augments can be a cloud of kill your friends. It's magical in arbitrations and general high level content.
Skill 4: invincibility and with the augment you become a immovable unkillable force you can use melee in combination with to sail across a room. Also great for sitting on mobile defense targets if you need to.  I've used it countless times to pick up my kavat and allies too.

All in all a great kit AND you can utilize every single ability in a single build. Almost no other frame in this game lets you use a full kit of a frame without sacrifices to a couple abilities.

Her first ability is probably the weakest link in her build but it isn't terrible. I just swap it with fire walker or khoras ability.

[Famecans]

2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Come on, dude... You're full of it. Psychic Bolts do full strip with only 25% power strength. This is hardly an issue... If you can't pull 125% power strength on your Nyx loadout then that's on you. The base range of 60m is also really huge so you don't need to go crazy with Overextended or anything..

Negative power strength is a positive factor for absorb/assimilate; in this way it is possible to reach the maximum accumulation before the energy drains.

[Leqesai]

12 minutes ago, Famecans said:

Negative power strength is a positive factor for absorb/assimilate; in this way it is possible to reach the maximum accumulation before the energy drains.

This is a valid point and I forgot about this interaction, however, if you're using absorb/assimilate you can't use psychic bolts anyway. Assimilate builds are generally focused solely on Assimilate, while a psychic bolts build may use absorb from time to time as a burst damage ability. I'd say this is more a problem of build-intent rather than her kit actively working against itself but I do see the inverse relationship these abilities have (the difference between low strength setups and one with 125% power strength are not so huge that this is a major issue).

[RazerXPrime]

Man those comparisons to Chaos, easily one of the best and most reliable CC in the game, are hilarious. 

Mind Control and Absorb are the worst part of her kit. They are not useless and have a niche in some builds, but they are counter intuitive. Specifically Absorb is a terribly designed ability. I do like the idea of it, but the execution is completely off. If you use Chaos correctly then you don't need Absorb unless you're fighting a single target.

Psychic Bolts and Chaos are two of the strongest abilities in the game that allow Nyx to solo any type of content without breaking a sweat. There's people complaining Nyx sucks because she doesn't have a damage amp, but she doesn't need one because she can oneshot almost anything in the game. Steel Path Treasurer? She laughs at him and he dies.

[Famecans]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

This is a valid point and I forgot about this interaction, however, if you're using absorb/assimilate you can't use psychic bolts anyway. Assimilate builds are generally focused solely on Assimilate, while a psychic bolts build may use absorb from time to time as a burst damage ability. I'd say this is more a problem of build-intent rather than her kit actively working against itself but I do see the inverse relationship these abilities have (the difference between low strength setups and one with 125% power strength are not so huge that this is a major issue).

It's difficult to update this frame niche, as AoE attacks and pre-built nuclear abilities in one match will dominate gameplay. The frame that depends on enemies to build the game itself but has no range/speed/energy will be crippled in the squad.

Nidus is an example, enemies cannot destroy Nidus but the squad can make Nidus die.

While there are no enemy squads resistant to nuclear attacks or specific weapons, several frames are lost in gameplay with no enemies to kill and no enemies to use skills.

[Leqesai]

5 hours ago, Famecans said:

It's difficult to update this frame niche, as AoE attacks and pre-built nuclear abilities in one match will dominate gameplay. The frame that depends on enemies to build the game itself but has no range/speed/energy will be crippled in the squad.

Nidus is an example, enemies cannot destroy Nidus but the squad can make Nidus die.

While there are no enemy squads resistant to nuclear attacks or specific weapons, several frames are lost in gameplay with no enemies to kill and no enemies to use skills.

Good points!

[Infirito]

6 hours ago, Leqesai said:

This is a valid point and I forgot about this interaction, however, if you're using absorb/assimilate you can't use psychic bolts anyway. Assimilate builds are generally focused solely on Assimilate, while a psychic bolts build may use absorb from time to time as a burst damage ability.

That's not the case at all, though, the build I usually run uses all of her abilities (I replaced her 1st with Silence, Dispensary and Ensnare in variants of this build). Nyx is great because you don't need to go hard in either direction to make her abilities work (unless you're building for interceptions).

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

12 hours ago, Infirito said:

Nyx does need her kit fixed, but whatever you're suggesting I strongly disagree with. Maybe play her more to actually understand the frame and how abilities work together in different builds? I've posted about her issues before (so did other people), not gonna repeat it here, there's no point anyway, after last Nyx "rework" I don't expect anything from DE.

And just for perspective, Nyx is my favourite and the most played frame.

So you’re the majority of the less than 1% that plays Nyx.

Shes a bad frame with abilities that don’t have the scale and scope necessary for today’s content.

Remember that there were a lot of Vauban mains that didn’t want him reworked and said the same things you’re saying now. Well after Vauban got his rework and received a proper kit they ate their words and I haven’t seen a single complaint about his kit (outside his 3 and horizontal bounce pad) ever since

It’s time to drop the bias and just accept that Nyx is awful and NEEDS new abilities.

[Infirito]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Shes a bad frame with abilities that don’t have the scale and scope necessary for today’s content.

It’s time to drop the bias and just accept that Nyx is awful and NEEDS new abilities.

Try actually reading the post before replying next time.

[Teridax68]

On one hand, I can agree with a lot of the criticism: Nyx is a frame who's aged poorly throughout the course of Warframe's development, losing much of her luster when the meta shifted away from crowd control, and once many more frames started outdoing her at her main strengths. The fact that her abilities frequently rely on manipulating enemy AI makes matters even worse, hence why a 500+% damage boost does very little to Mind Control.

With that said, though, I think the OP also focuses on some of the wrong problems, while ignoring others: I agree with some others here that Nyx doesn't really need personal damage enhancers (though her minions could stand to do meaningful damage), and I don't think the problem with Psychic Bolts is really the reliance on a smidgen of additional Power Strength to max out, as that's something she can usually manage. On top of this, though, I think part of the problem with Nyx is that she largely operates by making the game play itself: Chaos in particular is a button one presses on-demand to make the AI attack something else (most of the time), and Absorb gives complete invulnerability at the tradeoff of making the game boring. She doesn't just need buffs, she needs a rework, one that ideally makes her both stronger and healthier.

My take on a possible Nyx rework:

Spoiler

• Passive: 
  • Nyx stuns enemies while they remain near her aiming reticle.
  • Damage dealt by Nyx's abilities, as well as enemies affected by her abilities, is increased by an amount based on the recipient's level. 
• 1 - Mind Control: Nyx reduces her maximum health and shields to turn an enemy to her side. The enemy gains perfect accuracy, increased speed, and forgoes defensive tactics. Mind Controlled enemies prioritize targets stunned by Nyx's passive. The ability costs no Energy, and holding it releases mind controlled enemies from Nyx's grasp, restoring her reduced health and shields.
  • Augment - Mind Meld: When Nyx takes fatal damage, her weakest Mind Controlled minion dies instead, making her invulnerable for a short duration.
• 2 - Telekinesis: Nyx pulls the target enemy and holds them in front of her, draining Energy continuously while they are held. While held, the enemy is stunned and intercepts incoming attacks, taunting enemies in view to attack it. Casting the ability again throws the enemy towards the target point, causing them to damage themselves and nearby enemies for a portion of its maximum health and shields, plus the damage they absorbed.
  • Augment - Telekinetic Pacification: Enemies in the impact zone are confused for a duration.
• 3 - Chaos: Nyx marks the target enemy for a duration, causing it to emit an aura that reduces its maximum armor and shields as well as that of other nearby enemies, while causing affected enemies to attack the target. The armor and shield reduction aura persists even after the target dies.
  • Augment - Spreading Chaos: If the original target dies, all affected enemies become targets of Chaos for its remaining duration, spreading to further enemies until the ability ends.
• 4 - Absorb: Nyx activates a telekinetic field around herself that absorbs all nearby enemy attacks for a short duration, releasing the absorbed damage in a radial explosion. For a short duration afterwards, the ability's Energy cost is doubled, stacking infinitely.
  • Augment - Assimilate: Chaos no longer inflicts an explosion. Nyx's weapon attacks instead draw from the absorbed damage to deal bonus damage (which benefits from her passive).

TL;DR: Keep Nyx's core contributions while making her enemy-versus-enemy effects scale properly, take out the redundancy in her kit, and generally make her a lot more fluid to play, while developing on her psychic theme. Ideally, she should be a top-tier crowd control frame who can legitimately make enemies kill each other through her abilities, while being able to also contribute some utility and defense for her team.

[Birdframe_Prime]

See, the way I have it is that Nyx was really good when the Horde wasn't so diverse. Now that it is, Nyx is really good for a niche or two.

If we want to spread out that niche and make a better overall frame, we do have to do a bit of a tear-down on parts of her kit, but we definitely need some buffs there.

1. I'm actually with @Teridax68 on the change they want to make to her first ability. The function of reducing her own base survivability to make her minions, instead of costing energy, the function of multi-minions and the basic AI changes that make them attack quickly and accurately at all times (rather than ducking for cover). That's a good way of approaching the idea.

That takes the basic function, but turns the actions around to something more active and risk/reward based. Good augment idea too, but maybe a little too powerful as an augment? It would make for a gimmicky, but completely unkillable, survivability build. Maybe this could be part of the base ability? Something like 'When Nyx would take lethal damage, she instead releases a minion and gains back the sacrificed health and shields. This way she's not completely unkillable, but it would give her a second Shield Gate.

But I do want to give her more survivability than that, and dancing on the knife edge with casts and shield gating is not as fun as it sounds for many players.

2. Psychic Bolts. All this needs is one function changing; If an enemy affected by this ability dies, the effect jumps to the nearest enemy until the Duration ends.

Cast once, use the entire duration, rather than cast, kill, lose the rest of the duration.

Complete Defense Strip is a rare and precious function, this doesn't just reduce Armour and Shields, it removes buffs and Auras too. An Arson Eximus, even if you strip armour, still has passive health and health to allies. Hit him with Bolts and he has absolutely nothing. Same with Energy Leech Eximus and all the other Eximus units.

So all this needs is that ability to spread. Almost like Spores, but without the damage.

3. Chaos is honestly the one ability I wouldn't change. It's functional, useful, applicable in a vast majority of missions for ensuring that Nyx herself is killed less, and that allies and defense points are killed less too.

It also combos with Bolts, as does Mind Control, because while any enemy can't usually kill its allies with base damage, it can if those enemies have no Defenses. It's way more functional if you include Teridax's change to her 1.

4. This is where the ideology of taking things in another direction would really help out.

Instead of her 4 locking her in place, with the Augment allowing her to move... let's take this in another direction. Absorb's base function is the damage absorb over time, the damage release on de-cast, and the way it boosts your weapon damage after you de-cast too.

So how can we turn it on its head? Easy. Base Absorb allows for full movement at all times. It doesn't taunt enemies in the base form, you just toggle it on and it reduces (not prevents) incoming damage from enemies.

This allows the change to her 1 to really flourish, because it makes the lower health go further, but doesn't actually prevent her death if you make multiple minions. You can use abilities, weapons, all of it while Absorb is active and when you release it for the damage pulse your weapon gains bonus damage based on the amount absorbed.

This way the Augment is then a re-balance, it slows you down, reduces the orb size, but it absorbs all the damage, complete invulnerability. The only addition to this augment would be (because it's not making the ability a drain, the ability is a drain already) to make it Adaptive Damage, like Excal and Baruuk's augments.

And that's about it...

Oh, wait, one more thing.

On 2021-06-24 at 7:28 PM, broken_knee said:

if you're modding for assimilate, then say bye bye to the other abilities

To this? I ask why?

Try this:

Spoiler

https://overframe.gg/build/176740/

This is a Zero Forma build for Assimilate that maintains the use of all her other abilities. In fact, it facilitates them due to max Efficiency. With positive Duration, enough Strength to strip 100% Defenses off enemies, and a little Range to keep things positive, this build is the one I use for Steel Path. Specifically hunting bosses.

You are literally invulnerable, and nothing can kill you before you've pulled down their pants and spanked them on their bare behind. Crowds quickly lose that concentrated fire on you with Chaos and you're free to just Bolt-and-kill until you're all done.

Pair with a good melee, or my personal favourite is subsuming Vial Rush on there, because you not only skate around fast while in Absorb, it's a cooldown ability so it doesn't cost energy to cast either.

None of Nyx's other abilities are harmed by this, and you can take the concentrated fire of Gokstad Gunners (and their Rollers) for a significant amount of time without running out of energy, or you can just Chaos and bolt-kill combo them to save energy. Even better is if you put on Vial Rush, because you can Rush through a group to slow them all down first, so the animation from Chaos lasts for double the time and they deal even less damage to you.

In her niche, Nyx is incredible.

Out of it... well, that's where the rework suggestions come in.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

On 2021-06-24 at 8:13 PM, Famecans said:

Negative power strength is a positive factor for absorb/assimilate; in this way it is possible to reach the maximum accumulation before the energy drains.

What? Negative strength has no such positive effect on Absorb. If you're referring to the weapon damage bonus from absorbing enemy damage, negative strength means you'll need to absorb more damage (and consequently drain more energy) to reach the maximum bonus.
If you're talking about the extra drain per 1000 damage absorbed, strength doesn't affect that at all.
 

On 2021-06-24 at 8:31 PM, Leqesai said:

This is a valid point and I forgot about this interaction

Pretty easy to forget about an interaction that doesn't exist.
 

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Complete Defense Strip is a rare and precious function, this doesn't just reduce Armour and Shields, it removes buffs and Auras too. An Arson Eximus, even if you strip armour, still has passive health and health to allies. Hit him with Bolts and he has absolutely nothing. Same with Energy Leech Eximus and all the other Eximus units.

Just gonna point out that Pyschic Bolts can only do 1 of the following at once to an enemy:

• Strip armor and shields
• Disable Ancient aura
• Disable Eximus aura

With the priority following the order of the list. So your armored/shielded Arson Eximus is still gonna project his -50% damage type modifier to Blast and Heat to allies in range when you cast Pyschic Bolts. That Parasitic Ancient? Still gonna drain your energy.

[Leqesai]

24 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

What? Negative strength has no such positive effect on Absorb. If you're referring to the weapon damage bonus from absorbing enemy damage, negative strength means you'll need to absorb more damage (and consequently drain more energy) to reach the maximum bonus.
If you're talking about the extra drain per 1000 damage absorbed, strength doesn't affect that at all.
 

Pretty easy to forget about an interaction that doesn't exist.
 

Just gonna point out that Pyschic Bolts can only do 1 of the following at once to an enemy:

• Strip armor and shields
• Disable Ancient aura
• Disable Eximus aura

With the priority following the order of the list. So your armored/shielded Arson Eximus is still gonna project his -50% damage type modifier to Blast and Heat to allies in range when you cast Pyschic Bolts. That Infested Parasitic Ancient? Still gonna drain your energy.

Strength affects the multiplier on damage. Lower strength means a smaller multiplier which has a net increase in damage received totalling 1000. 

It is a pretty minor difference imo but i have heard for years that it works this way. Could be wrong but i have heard it discussed for a long time and my own tests do appear consistent with this claim.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

Strength affects the multiplier on damage. Lower strength means a smaller multiplier which has a net increase in damage received totalling 1000. 

It is a pretty minor difference imo but i have heard for years that it works this way. Could be wrong but i have heard it discussed for a long time and my own tests do appear consistent with this claim.

It doesn't.

 

[Famecans]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

What? Negative strength has no such positive effect on Absorb. If you're referring to the weapon damage bonus from absorbing enemy damage, negative strength means you'll need to absorb more damage (and consequently drain more energy) to reach the maximum bonus.
If you're talking about the extra drain per 1000 damage absorbed, strength doesn't affect that at all.

Well.. the positive factor I'm referring to is decreasing the energy drain and prolong the time because for me Absorb is only meant to protect a target or self-protect.

The explosion can reach 70m range at maximum stack without range mods but that doesn't make Absorb useful for constant nuclear attacks (working is possible but squad must be prepared by supplying energy constantly)

I thought: I don't want to absorb damage because every 1000 damage absorbed 8 energy is drained, and there is second energy drain by timing, so I'll negate absorbtion with Power Donation, Overextended and Adaptation.

Nyx also seems to bleed and receive degenerative status but I'm not sure if this degeneration directs damage to Absorb, I also don't sure if this degeneration can be reduced by armor mods and status reduction because this build is extremely stationary.

[Leqesai]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

It doesn't.

 

Mind blown

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

With the priority following the order of the list. So your armored/shielded Arson Eximus is still gonna project his -50% damage type modifier to Blast and Heat to allies in range when you cast Pyschic Bolts. That Parasitic Ancient? Still gonna drain your energy.

Actually? No, that's incorrect.

All of the defensive auras get stripped, offensive auras are not. So while a leech might still drain your energy, and I'll admit my wording was not precise on that, it won't have any other defensive bonuses so you kill it quickly, taking it out of the equation.

That Arson Eximus is projecting a defensive aura, and that gets disabled, as well as the armour reduction, because it's defense.

Defense strip.

Not offense strip.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Actually? No, that's incorrect.

All of the defensive auras get stripped, offensive auras are not. So while a leech might still drain your energy, and I'll admit my wording was not precise on that, it won't have any other defensive bonuses so you kill it quickly, taking it out of the equation.

That Arson Eximus is projecting a defensive aura, and that gets disabled, as well as the armour reduction, because it's defense.

Defense strip.

Not offense strip.

Still wrong.

You can clearly see the Arson Eximus's defensive aura of -50% damage type modifier to heat and blast is not disabled. I should be doing 464 damage with my Atomos to the Heavy Gunner, but I only do 232, which is -50% damage.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

You can clearly see the Arson Eximus's defensive aura of -50% damage type modifier to heat and blast is not disabled.

Huh... when did they change that? I did the testing on this back when they changed Nyx's abilities around, it definitely, 100% did remove defensive Auras along with Armour on Eximus enemies.

Stealth nerf or an initial bug that was patched out... I'll look through to see if it was ever mentioned in the patch notes.

To be completely fair to this whole discussion, I've only used Nyx for Steel Path bosses since Steel Path was released, before that it was pre-rework when we could still go Absorb Bowling with Valkyr's Ripline.