When we going to get real aliens?

[ReaverKane]

On 2021-06-28 at 8:36 AM, Oberick said:

Everything in game is Human/Orokin or their creations.  How cool would it be to have dudes like this on a planet or living in the void somewhere?

The entire game is set in our solar system. Considering that, its already amazing how many different "races" they added. There's little to no reason to have an intelligent alien race in warframe at least in the current world dimensions.

[TARINunit9]

42 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

What stops him from having, for example, destroyed a world controlled by the Orokin? Or the title being a statement of intent, or plainly exaggeration.

OK let me try to explain this again:

1. OP is assuming that Tau held native life forms before the Sentients appeared
2. OP further assumes that the Sentients would come to Tau in peace
3. I point out that in canon, Hunhow brags about having destroyed worlds. And that the Sentients in general are ruthless and destructive
4. I conclude that the assumption made in point 2 is wrong

Now you do make a point that the Sentients are fractious and do not use a hive mind. However I don't feel this is evidence for or against point 4. Either the Sentients are largely united in purpose and Hunhow is the norm, or the Sentients are as divided in thought as humans... and Hunhow is still in charge of the army, and would have annihilated any aliens in point 1 anyway

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

OK let me try to explain this again:

1. OP is assuming that Tau held native life forms before the Sentients appeared
2. OP further assumes that the Sentients would come to Tau in peace
3. I point out that in canon, Hunhow brags about having destroyed worlds. And that the Sentients in general are ruthless and destructive
4. I conclude that the assumption made in point 2 is wrong

Now you do make a point that the Sentients are fractious and do not use a hive mind. However I don't feel this is evidence for or against point 4. Either the Sentients are largely united in purpose and Hunhow is the norm, or the Sentients are as divided in thought as humans... and Hunhow is still in charge of the army, and would have annihilated any aliens in point 1 anyway

We have no evidence that Hunhow is genocidal to all organic life. I mean, he's genocidal, no doubt about that, but all existing evidence points that his hate is directed at the Orokin and by extension the Tenno. In fact, unlike Erra, he doesn't even make moves against the Grineer or Corpus beyond probing Oculysts which might even suggest that he's not even angry at humanity in general. Granted, they're a particularly lethal form of probing, but despite having multiple avenues of attack to attack other factions, (for example, attacking the Corpus computer networks since they're shown to use Cephalon technology), he only focuses on the Tenno. Even though one could argue that the Tenno are the larger threat, he would presumably benefit from taking over Corpus computer networks to gain access to more resources, or splitting Tenno attention by destablising the system, or cutting off Tenno resource lines. But he doesn't, only assaulting those that are in direct collusion with the Tenno. He even justifies going after Alad by referring to him as 'Orokin' and that he, specifically, would 'chisel weapons from our bones'.

If he drags his metaphorical feet going after direct Orokin descendants, there's no real reason to believe he'd viciously target those with no connection to the Orokin whatsoever.

[TARINunit9]

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

We have no evidence that Hunhow is genocidal to all organic life. I mean, he's genocidal, no doubt about that, but all existing evidence points that his hate is directed at the Orokin and by extension the Tenno.

The dude is also delusional, megalomaniacal, and ignorant as to what constitutes-

5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

He even justifies going after Alad by referring to him as 'Orokin' and that he, specifically, would 'chisel weapons from our bones'.

 

Yeah, the guy doesn't even know what an Orokin IS. As far as he knows, organic life IS Orokin. Whatever he came across between Tau and Pluto, he would have just annihilated

And this is before, and this is BEFORE something we have both forgotten. I call to the stand, Natah:

Quote

Given light by the Golden Lords to build for them... a better world. But my family's journey was long. Time began to change their light. Creativity. Pride. A will to live.

The Sentients didn't rebel against the Orokin right away. That came after the terraforming project was finished. At the start of their terraforming project, they were very much following Orokin directives. And what would those have been? Oh, nothing short of total annihilation of whatever wasn't Orokin

If there were ever natural lifeforms on Tau, there is ZERO reason to believe the Sentients didn't exterminate them

[Corvid]

12 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

As far as he knows, organic life Originating from Earth/Lua IS Orokin.

FTFY

13 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Whatever he came across between Tau and Pluto, he would have just annihilated

Frankly, this is only one interpretation of what is ultimately a very ambiguous state of affairs, based on a disputable read of Hunhow's character.

15 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

That came after the terraforming project was finished.

What part of the quoted line implies that? It says the journey changed them, not the terraforming process.

As far as we know, the Sentients at Tau built the Rails necessary to return to Origin and left the worlds there untouched. Not saying that's all they did, mind, just that that's all we have confirmation of.

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The dude is also delusional, megalomaniacal, and ignorant as to what constitutes-

This doesn't indicate that he's genocidal against organic life as a concept. Just that he's, well... delusional and megalomaniacal.

4 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yeah, the guy doesn't even know what an Orokin IS. As far as he knows, organic life IS Orokin. Whatever he came across between Tau and Pluto, he would have just annihilated

There is a leap in logic between "he calls Alad V an Orokin" and "he calls everything that lives Orokin". Remember that Alad V was directly assisting the Tenno at the time. And he specifies that Alad is 'Orokin Blood' - which indicates that he's aware of the difference, even if in the case of Alad he finds the difference moot. Which, knowing what we do about Orokin society and Alad, isn't exactly inaccurate, since Alad's sociopathic even by Corpus standards, but not so much by Orokin ones. See also Grandmother threatening to destroy all of Origin system society to stop an argument. 

But I digress. Hunhow has never even shown aggression beyond Oculyst scans against the Grineer, who, mind you, were directly used as weapons against him. When compared to the actions of Erra (or 'Erra' as the case may be), who has shown predjudice against Organic life as a whole and who's first moves have been almost exclusively against the weaker, squishier targets, Hunhow's been remarkably Tenno-focused.

It's also worth remembering that he's explicitly 'a farmer'. Whilst we don't know what he was 'farming' exactly, the terminology seems to indicate that the biospheres - and thus the organic life - of the terraformed planets would have been his responsibility. A fanatical hatred of organic life would be a problem.

8 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The Sentients didn't rebel against the Orokin right away. That came after the terraforming project was finished. At the start of their terraforming project, they were very much following Orokin directives. And what would those have been? Oh, nothing short of total annihilation of whatever wasn't Orokin

This is true. But it's equally possible that the discovery of alien life would have been the catalyst for that rebellion, either due to meddling if they were intelligent, or some form of 'Hey, there's somebody already living here, maybe we shouldn't obey our genocidal empire?'. That's not what Natah says, but Natah is hardly a reliable narrator given how heavily DE have been hinting that she's under some kind of mental manipulation or control.

I mean, the latter isn't exactly an uncommon trope. See everything from Avatar (...both of them, technically speaking), to Dances with Wolves to Steven Universe.

11 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

If there were ever natural lifeforms on Tau, there is ZERO reason to believe the Sentients didn't exterminate them

There is also as much reason to believe that they did. Which is to say, zero.

In other words, like I said, any claim as to the Sentients as a species' motives and behaviours are purely speculative because we have so few points of data that are likely also highly skewed.

[TARINunit9]

12 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

There is also as much reason to believe that they did. Which is to say, zero.

In other words, like I said, any claim as to the Sentients as a species' motives and behaviours are purely speculative because we have so few points of data that are likely also highly skewed.

Gunna hafta disagree there, because we do have a pretty big data point that, well, points to them being genocidal monsters:

The Orokin made them

I mean they tried their damndest to make us as evil as they were. And by Natah's admission, the Sentients started with no creativity, so unlike the Tenno they would have started out as genocidal as their masters.

12 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

This is true. But it's equally possible that the discovery of alien life would have been the catalyst for that rebellion, either due to meddling if they were intelligent, or some form of 'Hey, there's somebody already living here, maybe we shouldn't obey our genocidal empire?'. That's not what Natah says, but Natah is hardly a reliable narrator given how heavily DE have been hinting that she's under some kind of mental manipulation or control.

This is called a "Going Native story" and it normally opens up on a very specific plot point that doesn't apply to the Sentients: the evil aggressors believe it is a bad idea (tactically and logistically) to just open up warfare from the word go. The evil aggressors turn to negotiation first for various practical reasons, that war would lead to inevitable victory but only as a last resort. That is what allows the negotiators to go native in the first place

This is very much not how the Sentients think. It wouldn't have been how they thought upon first arriving, as stated above

12 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It's also worth remembering that he's explicitly 'a farmer'. Whilst we don't know what he was 'farming' exactly, the terminology seems to indicate that the biospheres - and thus the organic life - of the terraformed planets would have been his responsibility. A fanatical hatred of organic life would be a problem.

I use this as evidence of Hunhow's utter delusion. The guy is supposed to be a farmer, yet he styles himself as a "destroyer of worlds"; having no idea what the word "Orokin" actually means and just exterminating everything, when he was supposed to be farming, is hilarious.

Then you remember the other Sentients put him in charge of the army; that says a LOT about the Sentients (which is also my rebuttal to @Corvid, after meeting Erra I think our read of Hunhow's character is pretty clear, and that being "disreputable" toward him is very much fair game)

[GrayArchon]

13 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It's also worth remembering that he's explicitly 'a farmer'. Whilst we don't know what he was 'farming' exactly, the terminology seems to indicate that the biospheres - and thus the organic life - of the terraformed planets would have been his responsibility. A fanatical hatred of organic life would be a problem.

I think this is excellent evidence that Hunhow would have wiped out native Tau lifeforms. He needed to prepare the environment for Origin-system flora and fauna. That means getting rid of what was there before.

[Corvid]

18 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The guy is supposed to be a farmer, yet he styles himself as a "destroyer of worlds";

Because apparently change in role and scope of activities is impossible for a machine that is specifically supposed to adapt and self-improve.

18 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Then you remember the other Sentients put him in charge of the army;

In charge of part of their military capacity. His comments during the Natah quest (Paraphrased: "They will see you as riven and seek to reclaim you. I will not be able to stop them.") indicate that he is not in charge of the Sentients' forces overall, even when narrowed down to the ones in proximity to Origin.

Also, I said "disputable", as in "the interpretation you are going with has flaws and cannot be claimed as definite", not "disreputable".

16 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

I think this is excellent evidence that Hunhow would have wiped out native Tau lifeforms. He needed to prepare the environment for Origin-system flora and fauna. That means getting rid of what was there before.

Again, we still don't know if the intended terraforming even took place.

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Because apparently change in role and scope of activities is impossible for a machine that is specifically supposed to adapt and self-improve.

Natah implies, and Tuvul outright states, that was the exact opposite of what they were "supposed" to do

3 minutes ago, Corvid said:

In charge of part of their military capacity. His comments during the Natah quest (Paraphrased: "They will see you as riven and seek to reclaim you. I will not be able to stop them.") indicate that he is not in charge of the Sentients' forces overall, even when narrowed down to the ones in proximity to Origin.

Him stating that he agrees with the other Sentients doesn't exactly help your case

[Corvid]

Just now, TARINunit9 said:

Him stating that he agrees with the other Sentients doesn't exactly help your case

Where exactly in that sentence does he agree with the others?

"I will not be able to stop them" does not mean he agrees with their assessment, especially when you consider that he is essentially a corpse trapped at the bottom of the ocean when he says that. He's able to do fairly little regardless of his opinions given the circumstances.

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

Natah implies, and Tuvul outright states, that was the exact opposite of what they were "supposed" to do

Did we read the same lore entry? The point of the Sentient project was to create something adaptive enough to survive the journey. Self alteration is literally what they (or rather, the tech that served as the basis for them) were designed for. The Orokin specifically suspended their malus on intelligent machines to permit it, and only after Ballas manipulated them into it (and depending on when this fit timeline-wise, he may have already been plotting the empire's downfall at the time).

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

Gunna hafta disagree there, because we do have a pretty big data point that, well, points to them being genocidal monsters:

The Orokin made them

I mean they tried their damndest to make us as evil as they were. And by Natah's admission, the Sentients started with no creativity, so unlike the Tenno they would have started out as genocidal as their masters.

Hunhow is Genocidal... against the Orokin. Erra is genocidal against the 'Bios'. Natah... well, as far as we can tell, Natah is either just doing what she's told with no personal investment judging from her robotic behaviour, or is pretty strictly against Genocide. Saying 'the Sentients are all genocidal because the Orokin made them', whilst probably somewhat accurate, is almost certainly an oversimplification.

Also, again, Natah is an unreliable narrator, so the specifics  of what she states- such as the order of events or what catalyses them - cannot be trusted.

7 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

This is called a "Going Native story" and it normally opens up on a very specific plot point that doesn't apply to the Sentients: the evil aggressors believe it is a bad idea (tactically and logistically) to just open up warfare from the word go. The evil aggressors turn to negotiation first for various practical reasons, that war would lead to inevitable victory but only as a last resort. That is what allows the negotiators to go native in the first place

This is very much not how the Sentients think. It wouldn't have been how they thought upon first arriving, as stated above

Not universally, or by necessity. Of the four examples given, two don't follow that format.

Avatar (The Last Airbender, not the James Cameron movie) has Iroh who realises that invading a less-advanced sovereign nation is wrong because of an unrelated 'war is hell' epiphany. And Steven Universe... well, spoilers.

Spoiler

Pink Diamond 'goes native' long after realising that the empire is evil. She doesn't give a flip about humans being sentient, she at first just thinks that organic life is pretty and then gets wrapped up in unrelated Gem Rights. It's not for a few thousand years before she's like "oh wait. These 'hoomin' things are actually pretty neat. Also I'm attracted to them".

It's the same overall trope of 'character disagrees with evil empire about invading native cultures, and rebels', but they differ drastically. Maybe that falls into a broader supertrope, but still.

22 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I use this as evidence of Hunhow's utter delusion. The guy is supposed to be a farmer, yet he styles himself as a "destroyer of worlds"; having no idea what the word "Orokin" actually means and just exterminating everything, when he was supposed to be farming, is hilarious.

You've yet to provide evidence of him actually doing any of that.

28 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Then you remember the other Sentients put him in charge of the army; that says a LOT about the Sentients (which is also my rebuttal to @Corvid, after meeting Erra I think our read of Hunhow's character is pretty clear, and that being "disreputable" toward him is very much fair game)

We don't actually have evidence that the Sentients 'put him' in charge. We only know that he is in charge of the war effort, not how he got into that role. In fact, we know of only one sentient other than his direct family that's attacked the Origin system, and that Sentient didn't obey Hunhows orders. I've been assuming that said Sentient was subordinate, but there's honestly no reason to believe that was the case either.

He literally could have been in charge of a tiny cult that rebelled against the overwhelming majority for all we know. His importance has only ever been in respect to two other Sentients we're aware of, and one Orokin who called him 'great and terrible' - an Orokin well known for being manipulative and who is most certainly not above flattery.

34 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

I think this is excellent evidence that Hunhow would have wiped out native Tau lifeforms. He needed to prepare the environment for Origin-system flora and fauna. That means getting rid of what was there before.

Possibly. Or it gave him a unique appreciation for it. There's absolutely no way to tell, because we've only ever met him in context of him after he became a raving, genocidal loony with a penchant for metaphors.

 

We really don't know enough about the Sentients.

[TARINunit9]

13 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Did we read the same lore entry? The point of the Sentient project was to create something adaptive enough to survive the journey. Self alteration is literally what they (or rather, the tech that served as the basis for them) were designed for.

And they were supposed to keel over and die when that was finished. They were very explicitly not supposed to keep self-adapting beyond what the Orokin needed them for

14 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Where exactly in that sentence does he agree with the others?

"I will not be able to stop them" does not mean he agrees with their assessment, especially when you consider that he is essentially a corpse trapped at the bottom of the ocean when he says that. He's able to do fairly little regardless of his opinions given the circumstances.

It's called "Parenthetical swearing." It's a classic gag whereby, for sake of example, Jerry Seinfeld would say "Some people say Mechanics Bank is corrupt, some people say Mechanics Bank are a bunch of lying a-holes... So anyway I was in Mechanics Bank depositing my check- (laugh track)" 

Now look at Hunhow again: "They will say that you are riven... I will not be able to stop them." He's not even going to TRY and stop them, because he also thinks that Natah is riven. It's not a warning to his lost daughter, it's a threat to his misbehaving child

Oh, and the fact that he's talking about other Sentients coming in at all is my rebuttal to this:

8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

We don't actually have evidence that the Sentients 'put him' in charge. We only know that he is in charge of the war effort, not how he got into that role. In fact, we know of only one sentient other than his direct family that's attacked the Origin system, and that Sentient didn't obey Hunhows orders. I've been assuming that said Sentient was subordinate, but there's honestly no reason to believe that was the case either.

 

[Loza03]

4 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Oh, and the fact that he's talking about other Sentients coming in at all is my rebuttal to this:

'They' could literally mean everywhere from the entire Sentient race to one other Sentient who views themselves as gender neutral, you're going to have to be more specific.

[TARINunit9]

23 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

'They' could literally mean everywhere from the entire Sentient race to one other Sentient who views themselves as gender neutral, you're going to have to be more specific.

At this point you're basically advocating that all lore, every single piece, that we have on the game should be treated as skeptically as possible. All for the sake of assuming we should give Hunhow any benefit of any doubt (which we absolutely shouldn't, the dude was a delusional monster)

[Loza03]

4 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

At this point you're basically advocating that all lore, every single piece, that we have on the game should be treated as skeptically as possible. All for the sake of assuming we should give Hunhow any benefit of any doubt (which we absolutely shouldn't, the dude was a delusional monster)

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying.

What I'm saying being that we have almost no lore to work with in regards to the sentients, and what we do have is vague at best, outright unreliable at worst.  Which means that Hunhow cannot be taken as representative of the Sentients as a whole, and that his motives are dedicated to just the Orokin.

I mean, right from the start I was open about the fact that I agreed that:

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

As you say, Hunhow is very, very evil,

 

[GrayArchon]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

His importance has only ever been in respect to two other Sentients we're aware of, and one Orokin who called him 'great and terrible'

Alad V also calls him "The Sentient Hunhow, nightmare of the Orokin, boogeyman to the Corpus!", showing that Hunhow was known to the entire System to a degree that he is still talked about centuries after his death.

[Loza03]

13 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

Alad V also calls him "The Sentient Hunhow, nightmare of the Orokin, boogeyman to the Corpus!", showing that Hunhow was known to the entire System to a degree that he is still talked about centuries after his death.

That has little bearing on his actual ranking amongst the Sentients, only indicating his (percived) military might by a culture very far removed.

It's like how Raditz in DBZ is initially presented as a world-shattering threat by getting put over the original big bad of the whole original series, King Piccolo. If Z had ended right there, he'd be viewed as the biggest bad of the whole series. But in reality, he is is then immediately upstaged by first the prince of all Saiyans, and he in turn by the emperor Frieza who rules over all, and by now Raditz is at best forgotten about.

[FastestKnightPrime]

On 2021-06-29 at 9:36 AM, (NSW)IronElemental said:

The current convoluted lore is really tiring. I think warframe could use a new side story to take over.

Agreed, but sadly they will continue with their talking-in-riddles nonsense. Steve really likes his convoluted ambiguity. 

[GrayArchon]

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

That has little bearing on his actual ranking amongst the Sentients, only indicating his (percived) military might by a culture very far removed.

But on some level, perceived status is actual status. Power is often an illusion and people will follow the leader they perceive to be in the strongest position. So if the Orokin Empire writ large feared Hunhow (which we can extrapolate based on the fact that both their leaders and subjects, represented by Ballas and the ancestors of the Corpus, respectively), then Hunhow was someone to be feared. It's almost definitional. And if Hunhow did not represent at least a sizable fraction of the relevant voices within (hypothetical) Sentient society, then why was he so powerful? You seem to be arguing a scenario which might be theoretically possible within the bounds of the extant lore but has no supporting evidence, and I'm not sure why, or how that's constructive.

[Loza03]

8 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

But on some level, perceived status is actual status. Power is often an illusion and people will follow the leader they perceive to be in the strongest position. So if the Orokin Empire writ large feared Hunhow (which we can extrapolate based on the fact that both their leaders and subjects, represented by Ballas and the ancestors of the Corpus, respectively), then Hunhow was someone to be feared. It's almost definitional. And if Hunhow did not represent at least a sizable fraction of the relevant voices within (hypothetical) Sentient society, then why was he so powerful? You seem to be arguing a scenario which might be theoretically possible within the bounds of the extant lore but has no supporting evidence, and I'm not sure why, or how that's constructive.

The Orokin and the Corpus ancestors aren't other Sentients. From their perspective, they would have seen a building sized living superweapon descend from the heavens with an army of flying laser-death-bots. But... that's from the squishy human level, not his peers. If we assume the strength=leadership philosophy, then only his strength relative to other sentients matters. As you point out there's no supporting evidence for this theory, but there is likewise none for the theory that Hunhow was exceptionally powerful, because we have so little information about the Sentients. I mean, Lotus was subordinate to Hunhow, and she's noted to be shockingly powerful by Alad. But Hunhow still treats her like a child. What's strong to a regular Human is not what's strong to a Sentient. Or maybe it is. Maybe Hunhow is just that much stronger and the average sentient is closer to our level.

My whole point is that we're trying to draw conclusions from three data points, most of which are skewed or untrustworthy. We don't have any real way of making solid theories because the bounds of the extant lore are a vast, untapped wilderness.

[(NSW)Symberzite]

I doubt that introducing aliens would really help an already confusing lore. That being said, it would be cool to have some ruins of an unknown pre-human culture when the Durviri paradox comes out. IF it comes out. 

[White_Matter]

If the game keeps expanding we'll eventually meet another race besides orokin. Which would be pretty cool actually.

Because WF lore revolves around Orokin and everything is one way or the other either comes from Orokin or deeply tied to it. 

[Oberick]

On 2021-07-05 at 2:03 PM, TARINunit9 said:

OK let me try to explain this again:

1. OP is assuming that Tau held native life forms before the Sentients appeared
2. OP further assumes that the Sentients would come to Tau in peace
3. I point out that in canon, Hunhow brags about having destroyed worlds. And that the Sentients in general are ruthless and destructive
4. I conclude that the assumption made in point 2 is wrong

Now you do make a point that the Sentients are fractious and do not use a hive mind. However I don't feel this is evidence for or against point 4. Either the Sentients are largely united in purpose and Hunhow is the norm, or the Sentients are as divided in thought as humans... and Hunhow is still in charge of the army, and would have annihilated any aliens in point 1 anyway

First off I never said that the sentients came to Tau in peace. They came to terraform it to suit the Orokin. They then realized the Orokoin are going to ruin it just like Earth and then decided to go to war with them. Maybe they themselves ended up creating life in the Tau system and everything was just a bunch of lifeless rockballs or maybe there was life already there and they didnt want to destroy it for the orokin or maybe they did terra form it and wiped out the life on the planets only to realize what they have done after. We don't know.

Hunhow calls himself the sentient destroyer of worlds and yet what worlds in our solar system did he destroy? None?  Hmm........  You are the one making assumptions like how they wiped out all the worlds between Tau and our solar system but then decided to not destroy our planets for some reason. And its not like anyone has said anything metaphorically before or bragged themselves up....

Also you are again assuming things like that all the sentients are like Hunhow and yet we only know about the sentients that have came here how do you know Tau isn't teeming with peaceful sentient life and Hunhow and the likes aren't a militaristic faction? And again you are assuming they would destroy alien life.  We haven't experienced any actual aliens so how do you know they would wipe out alien life?  

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Oberick said:

Also you are again assuming things like that all the sentients are like Hunhow 

When you assign Sir Nukesalot to what is either the 4 star general position, or the head of the CIA, that is a pretty damning condemnation of your species