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When we going to get real aliens?


Oberick

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1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

When you assign Sir Nukesalot to what is either the 4 star general position, or the head of the CIA, that is a pretty damning condemnation of your species

And do we know the assigned him that position? Or did he and the others like him leave to come kill us?  We don't know.

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15 minutes ago, Oberick said:

And do we know the assigned him that position? Or did he and the others like him leave to come kill us?  We don't know.

Yes we do, frankly. Remember his line,

"They will say you are riven and reclaim you. I will not be able to stop them."

Between Natah and Hunhow, Hunhow is considered the normal one, and Natah was considered the deviating weirdo. Hunhow is not a rogue agent, he is a promoted official

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3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yes we do, frankly. Remember his line,

"They will say you are riven and reclaim you. I will not be able to stop them."

Between Natah and Hunhow, Hunhow is considered the normal one, and Natah was considered the deviating weirdo. Hunhow is not a rogue agent, he is a promoted official

That doesn't say anything about tau.

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1 minute ago, Oberick said:

No you are making assumptions. Like several people have already said in this thread.  Not sure why you wanna die on that hill.

Not nearly as many assumptions as you. Not sure why YOU would want to die on the hill of "everything in the lore is wrong, the genocidal delusional killbot who was given control of the killbot army by the killbot government is actually benevolent and nice and defending aliens we have no reason to assume even exist"

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10 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Not nearly as many assumptions as you. Not sure why YOU would want to die on the hill of "everything in the lore is wrong, the genocidal delusional killbot who was given control of the killbot army by the killbot government is actually benevolent and nice and defending aliens we have no reason to assume even exist"

What did I assume? I said we have only a couple facts. 1. the war was started because they didn't want the Orokin to destroy tau.  and 2. people can say things that aren't true.  Me saying I'm a god at warframe doesn't mean I'm an actual god nor does it mean its true just because I said it.  You're the one saying we gotta believe him literally and that they destroyed every planet between Tau and earth when you have no evidence what so ever. And given that all the planets in our solar system are just fine I think it actually proves you wrong.

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12 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yes we do, frankly. Remember his line,

"They will say you are riven and reclaim you. I will not be able to stop them."

Between Natah and Hunhow, Hunhow is considered the normal one, and Natah was considered the deviating weirdo. Hunhow is not a rogue agent, he is a promoted official

1: As stated, 'they' is an incredibly broad term. You're making an assumption that 'they' is the broader Sentient 'government'. 'They' could just as easily be a group of like-minded rogue agents or even some extremely powerful singular individual like 'mother'. There's no evidence for, but no evidence against. The statement is too vague.

2: This line explicitly suggests that Hunhow is not particularly important or powerful, since otherwise he would be able to stop them, no?

12 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Not nearly as many assumptions as you. Not sure why YOU would want to die on the hill of "everything in the lore is wrong, the genocidal delusional killbot who was given control of the killbot army by the killbot government is actually benevolent and nice and defending aliens we have no reason to assume even exist"

I can't speak for @Oberick, but I know that's not what I've been saying this whole time. What I've been saying is that everything we think we know about the Sentients is assumption and speculation based on very limited evidence that has been repeatedly shown to be flawed.

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6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

What I've been saying is that everything we think we know about the Sentients is assumption and speculation based on very limited evidence that has been repeatedly shown to be flawed.

7 hours ago, Oberick said:

I said we have only a couple facts. 1. the war was started because they didn't want the Orokin to destroy tau.  and 2. people can say things that aren't true.  

Yeah, this idea that "we only have very limited evidence" is going to be a hard "No" from me. We have all the evidence we need to damn the Sentients. The following are not assumptions, they are based on evidence we have:

1: "There are no innocent civilians" --Gen. Curtis LeMay

The argument I keep hearing relies on the assumption that the Sentients only want to dispose of the Orokin empire, and would leave all other life forms alone. Unfortunately for the argument, there is no indication this is the case, and quite a lot of evidence to the opposite. Hunhow either doesn't know or doesn't care about the distinction between "human" and "Orokin." Meanwhile, Erra and Natah DO know the difference, and also don't care, killing non-Orokin humans indiscriminately -- and in Erra's case, making a point to torture them slowly for no reason beyond basic sadism. The Great Eidolon sought only to heal itself from its Void-inflicted wounds, but rather than just as Unum for some help it chose to shoot first ask questions never and just TAKE everything it wanted by force. Hunhow's wife has been shown to attack innocent Ostrons according to dialogue in this video. Even Natah, the supposedly good and normal Sentient, sees humankind as nothing more than resources to be exploited, the tin in a tin/copper alloy; her Amalgams are not an alliance, they are just Sentients, and the humans are glorified food.

2: "As always, should you or any of your IM Force be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions" --Mission: Impossible

A rogue splinter cell trying to drum up war is a common thing in fiction. The thing is, they have someone trying to stop them. Their own former government is trying just as hard to stop them as the people they're aiming to kill. This NOT happened with the Sentients, there has been no attempt to mend the peace; the Sentient government fully endorses the idea of Hunhow, a deranged, delusional warmonger who wishes to destroy entire planets, leading a military force against a foreign power. The Sentient government considers Hunhow normal. And this isn't the only reason I have found to think the Sentients are all as bad as Hunhow...

3: "Guilt-Free Extermination War" --TvTropes

The Tenno, as in the players, are only ever given the option to kill people who very much deserve it. The players do not decide who lives and dies, the developers do. And when you look at who the devs DON'T let us kill, that sends a pretty damning indictment against the Sentients. The Red Veil are a team-killing death cult, New Loka are both racist and morons, and the Ventkids sometimes rob Solaris at gunpoint, but we treat them all as fellow heroes, we can't fight them. We CAN fight the Sentients, the true gods of the Warframe universe have marked them out for destruction. The devs have supposedly expressed desire to let us, the players, invade Tau, though I've having trouble sourcing that (it's just taken as red by the fanbase that the devs want to do it); if that's true, and the devs DO let us invade Tau, then it's basically game over for any Sentient innocence.

 

Oh and one last nitpick

7 hours ago, Loza03 said:

2: This line explicitly suggests that Hunhow is not particularly important or powerful, since otherwise he would be able to stop them, no?

It wasn't a warning, it was a threat. It wasn't an indication of powerlessness, it was an indication of sadism. Hunhow totally COULD stop them from reclaiming Natah, but he won't

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First of all.

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

It wasn't a warning, it was a threat. It wasn't an indication of powerlessness, it was an indication of sadism. Hunhow totally COULD stop them from reclaiming Natah, but he won't

"I will not be able to stop them". If the quote was "I will not stop them", then you'd be right, but he clarifies that he isn't capable of doing it.

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The argument I keep hearing relies on the assumption that the Sentients only want to dispose of the Orokin empire, and would leave all other life forms alone. Unfortunately for the argument, there is no indication this is the case, and quite a lot of evidence to the opposite. Hunhow either doesn't know or doesn't care about the distinction between "human" and "Orokin." 

You keep saying this but you don't provide evidence. Hunhow has only ever attacked the Tenno or those who have directly opposed him, despite being quite capable of doing so, and it even being in his best interests to do so. He's megalomaniacal, but not stupid, and he's been demonstrated to be capable of acts of subversion and resource-denial. Not to mention, with his abilities to take over computers and the Corpus's demonstrably bad data security, he could have negated his primary weakness (limited numbers) by bolstering his ranks with proxy units. If he had beef with all organic life or didn't care if they died, it'd have been his best play to attack and subvert the Corpus. 

You say there's quite a lot of evidence to the opposite, but you haven't yet given any.

7 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Meanwhile, Erra and Natah DO know the difference, and also don't care, killing non-Orokin humans indiscriminately -- and in Erra's case, making a point to torture them slowly for no reason beyond basic sadism.

At what point do I suggest Erra is in any way a good person either? He's taken over Hunhows role as chief sentient villain for the time being, what with Natah either being subserviant to or under some form of mind control of. WIth that in mind, Natah's status isn't accounted for, so until that's clarified, we can't use her actual opinions as data points.

However, even Erra's status is suspect, due to his collaboration with Ballas, who is Orokin.  The latter demonstrated control over Sentients before his 'makeover' indicating this alliance was in place whilst he wasn't an amalgam. So, of the only three sentients we've had any extended interaction with, one must be treated as compromised and the other needs to be taken with scrutiny.

My point is focused on the wider Sentient community, because that's what'd matter when discussing whether or not there'd be any life on Tau. And we have one 'lucid' (and I use that term loosely) in Hunhow, and two suspect/compromised individuals to go by.

18 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The Great Eidolon sought only to heal itself from its Void-inflicted wounds, but rather than just as Unum for some help it chose to shoot first ask questions never and just TAKE everything it wanted by force.

The Great Eidolon actually came to the system to attack the Orokin. Its motivations are unknown beyond what's said by the legend (it absolutely was a 'shoot first ask questions never' individual), but it is known that, in spite of them coming down shortly after the Tenno Betrayal (i.e. during a time period where the system was at its most vulnerable) it only targeted Earth. An Earth that, whilst we know from the Silver Grove was being healed, was very much not widely inhabited at the time. We know this because of the Thousand Year Fish fragments: "Decades later, ships entering ancient Er's orbit were hailed from the planet's poisoned surface". Earth is described as poisoned. Likely, the Unum and the plains were one of a handful of inhabitable areas at that time, which would have been even worse during the Eidolon's attack (the thousand-year-fish describes that the undead Eidolons were a thing during the founding of Cetus, meaning that the Eidolon's mind was dead).

This means that, instead of attacking the scattered remnants of civilisation and various rag-tag survivors... the Eidolon chose to attack likely-empty buildings on a mostly uninhabited planet. Hell, it chose to attack them over other living Orokin since we know several Orokin survived past the point of the Tenno going into hibernation thanks to Synthesis imprints, so there were active, living Orokin during this time period.

31 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Hunhow's wife has been shown to attack innocent Ostrons according to dialogue in this video

Trailers are trailers, and their canonicity is dubious. I'd say we know for a fact that Mother's dead thanks to Erra, but... well, as I've stated, Natah has already questioned several of his claims and gotten the electroshock therapy treatment for it, so I'm treating him as an unreliable source until further notice. Likewise, I'm consider 'Mother' to be schrodinger's sentient until either proven otherwise, or a sufficient period of inactivity.

43 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Even Natah, the supposedly good and normal Sentient, sees humankind as nothing more than resources to be exploited, the tin in a tin/copper alloy; her Amalgams are not an alliance, they are just Sentients, and the humans are glorified food.

As stated numerous times, Natah is to be treated as Compromised. Her actions and motivations are being intentionally obscured and rendered misleading.

45 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

A rogue splinter cell trying to drum up war is a common thing in fiction. The thing is, they have someone trying to stop them. Their own former government is trying just as hard to stop them as the people they're aiming to kill. This NOT happened with the Sentients, there has been no attempt to mend the peace; the Sentient government fully endorses the idea of Hunhow, a deranged, delusional warmonger who wishes to destroy entire planets, leading a military force against a foreign power. The Sentient government considers Hunhow normal. And this isn't the only reason I have found to think the Sentients are all as bad as Hunhow...

The Sentients could literally be in a transformers-style civil war over the topic in Tau, but we're in the Origin system and we're none the wiser. However, I'd like to address this last alongside the next point.

 

 

 

48 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The Tenno, as in the players, are only ever given the option to kill people who very much deserve it. The players do not decide who lives and dies, the developers do. And when you look at who the devs DON'T let us kill, that sends a pretty damning indictment against the Sentients. The Red Veil are a team-killing death cult, New Loka are both racist and morons, and the Ventkids sometimes rob Solaris at gunpoint, but we treat them all as fellow heroes, we can't fight them. We CAN fight the Sentients, the true gods of the Warframe universe have marked them out for destruction. The devs have supposedly expressed desire to let us, the players, invade Tau, though I've having trouble sourcing that (it's just taken as red by the fanbase that the devs want to do it); if that's true, and the devs DO let us invade Tau, then it's basically game over for any Sentient innocence.

I'm going to be volunteering my own speculation here. As such, I fully anticipate that things I say below will almost certainly be wrong, as they are built from incomplete data or just plain wishful thinking. After all, my point in the rest of the discussion is that we don't have any concrete information on the Sentients, and by extension, no reason to believe they'd  wipe out alien species. Likewise, I have no reason to believe for sure that this is the case.

 

OK, so here's the question. Why doesn't DE want us to know about Tau. What do they gain by limiting the number of sentient villains so harshly, and why would they consistently have them not contact home for help? Especially considering that much of the build-up to the Sentients was that a 'great threat' was coming from Tau, it's pretty noticable that we've met two living Sentients and a corpse. Not to mention that DE are, quite frankly pushing the hell out of the mind control narrative for Lotus. Like, in the absence of outright confirmation, I'm leaving the possibility that she's doing this of her own free will on the table for the purposes of analysis and lore discussion, because I respect debate. But any doubt left my mind personally the second Erra flung her into an electric torture device.

The conclusion I have subsequently come to is that DE is setting up an expectation subversion, a'la Metroid Fusions. Throughout the Metroid saga, you're led to believe that Metroids are bioweapons or a feral ecosystem-threatening mistake of nature. Hence why in 2 you go and wipe them out entirely. Then in Fusion, it's revealed that they had an actual purpose being there and for being so dangerous. This is hinted at (I hesitate to go so far as 'foreshadowed') in Super through the Baby, which in contrast to other Metroids, demonstrates a capacity for empathy.

Likewise, I think DE is setting up the twist that the Sentients that some proportion have no stakes in the war. Like the Lotus, they desire peace, if not coexistance (what with the whole, 'coming to the Origin system sterlising them making mutual cooperation difficult). This, in turn, provides a more interesting and nuanced Narrative since, unlike the other three factions, the Sentients have always been depicted as more sympathetic, despite being likewise depicted as uniformly evil. This is in contrast with... well almost everything else. After all, we do get to fight the team killing death cult. Multiple times, actually. Go far enough in a defection mission and they'll make a move on you. The Syndicates are depicted as murderous to those who disagree and the other factions all have non-hostile individuals. Even the Infestation and Orokin do, thanks to Helminth and to a lesser extent, the Entrati (who serve double-duty).

Yet the only faction who's motives aren't as simple as basically Daleks or Capitalism, who are given a tragic backstory that mirrors the Tenno in an interesting way (for example, weak to the void vs fuelled by it) and an explicit motivation in preventing the Orokin from ruining Tau, have their only allied figure taken away. To me, it just makes sense for that phase of the narrative to conclude with a big attack on Tau, whereupon it's revealed that the Sentients are just as screwed up and divided as the Origin system is. It's a big reveal that gives DE another 'Second Dream' if pulled off and gives them a long-term loop and story to tell. After all, invading Tau and killing off the Sentient's leader or blowing up the doodad that lets them go to the Origin system is endgame, whereas settling the Tenno into a second system wide conflict to protect the innocent Sentients manages to achieve three things: It keeps the Sentient enemies in the narrative for players to fight, it means there's still a reason to visit Tau for later expansion and it concludes the Tenno's arc of increasing independence by having them choose mercy (of a sort) where the Orokin didn't.

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59 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

You keep saying this but you don't provide evidence. 

You say there's quite a lot of evidence to the opposite, but you haven't yet given any.

It's clear there is a fundamental disconnect in our communication. Every single time you ask for evidence, all I can say is "Have you not even played the game?!" And yet looking at other arguments from you, clearly you have.

So something has gone wrong. We are arguing two different points, defending our respective thesis against arguments that aren't being made. So I think we need to step back.

My thesis is twofold: First, Hunhow and Erra are considered normal by the standards of Sentients. Their megalomaniacal delusions, their sadistic torture, that is normal for Sentients. All of them, both the ones that attacked the Orokin and the ones that stayed home in Tau. I do in fact have evidence for this point, if it what we are supposed to argue at all. Second, because Sentients like that are normal, there is no chance that any aliens could still exist in the present day in Tau. Because Erra and Hunhow are considered normal, because they consider destroying worlds to be something worth bragging about, the aliens would have been destroyed long ago

What is your argument?

Oh, one more thing

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

The conclusion I have subsequently come to is that DE is setting up an expectation subversion, a'la Metroid Fusions. Throughout the Metroid saga, you're led to believe that Metroids are bioweapons or a feral ecosystem-threatening mistake of nature. Hence why in 2 you go and wipe them out entirely. Then in Fusion, it's revealed that they had an actual purpose being there and for being so dangerous. This is hinted at (I hesitate to go so far as 'foreshadowed') in Super through the Baby, which in contrast to other Metroids, demonstrates a capacity for empathy.

I think you are giving the Metroid species way too much credit. While "kill all the Metroids" was a bad idea, it wasn't because the Metroids themselves were good people. They were mindless, ravenous beasts just as harmful as the X Parasites they were created to kill, and letting the Metroids live has time and again shown to be just as terrible an idea as wiping them out proved to be. 

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  • 8 months later...

to throw my two cents in, i believe us discovering aliens we already hurt would be a GREAT little bit of lore, either coming from deep in europa or from tau, either way, our interference (either corpus or orokin via the sentients) has pissed off the local intelligent species and they decided SOMETHING needs to be done, and perferribly with them split on the matter of "the tenno are fighting the ones who hurt us, they are our allies" and "the tenno are human, they are our enemy"

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though in my personal opinion, they should have a wildly diffrent bodyplan more akin to starfish or something, at least to differentiate them from the hoop like bodyplan of the sentients and the pole like bodyplan of our own kind, maybe a web like, diploid, or other bodyplan, just something that makes them distinctly nonhuman and nonsentient, kind of like this imagef86425d604a14bdf8cc29b575880cd94--spaces credits go to concept artist from the movie "arrival"

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1 minute ago, (NSW)Celidon said:

no they are not, they are of orokin desing

The Sentients are an artificial race from the Tau System that were the chief enemies of the Orokin during the Old War. Originally suspected to be a truly alien race (whereas the Orokin, Grineer, Corpus and Tenno are all human or trans-human variations originating from Earth, and the Infested are a successive mutation of them), memory imprints provided by Cephalon Simaris revealed that they were originally created by the Orokin as terraforming machines, to be sent to the Tau System. For this purpose, and against the misgivings of certain Orokin Executors, they were gifted with an extreme degree of adaptability and resilience, bordering on true self-determination. As their name suggests, they inadvertently gained sentience. Coupled with their own innate abilities, they proved to be a formidable threat for the Orokin Empire, almost leading it to its downfall. All Sentients deal DmgTauSmall64.png Tau damage, alluding to their home system.

yes

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10 hours ago, (PSN)Tomplexthis said:

The Sentients are an artificial race from the Tau System that were the chief enemies of the Orokin during the Old War. Originally suspected to be a truly alien race (whereas the Orokin, Grineer, Corpus and Tenno are all human or trans-human variations originating from Earth, and the Infested are a successive mutation of them), memory imprints provided by Cephalon Simaris revealed that they were originally created by the Orokin as terraforming machines, to be sent to the Tau System. For this purpose, and against the misgivings of certain Orokin Executors, they were gifted with an extreme degree of adaptability and resilience, bordering on true self-determination. As their name suggests, they inadvertently gained sentience. Coupled with their own innate abilities, they proved to be a formidable threat for the Orokin Empire, almost leading it to its downfall. All Sentients deal DmgTauSmall64.png Tau damage, alluding to their home system.

yes

No. 

They were made to colonize Tau. They might have evolved into the Sentients they are along the way and while there, but their origins are still of Orokin/Human creation.

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