Lavos QoL Suggestions

[Ordel]

On the elemental passive:

Problem 1:

Lavos' chosen element is emptied/reset after every ability cast.

Suggested Solution:

Instead of resetting the chosen element after a cast, the element should stay or have a timer associated with it. All of Lavos' abilities from that point on (or cast within that window of time) should be imbued with the chosen element. Changing elements should override the currently selected element (refreshing the timer) and then continue this behavior.

Thought Process:

Having to remake the elements for EVERY single cast adds a lot of extra unnecessary actions - especially if the player is making a secondary/combined element.

Casting his abilities once with corrosive for example, left to right, needs these keystrokes:

1+3, 1, 1+3, 2, 1+3, 3, 1+3, 4 | 12 total keystrokes.

Doing the same if the elements were kept after cast:

1+3, 1, 2, 3, 4 | 6 total keystrokes. That would be so nice.

In actual gameplay, you're likely to be casting your 1 and 2 much more often; this just a small example. Additionally it's not like there's a reason to NOT have an element at the ready, so it's safe to assume that one would just want to always have SOME element on.

 

Problem 2:

Although the ability to synthesize elements is part of Lavos' passive, subsumed abilities are unable to be used in this manner.

Suggested Solution:

The ability to make elements should be treated like a passive, independent of the abilities in any of Lavos' slots. Tap/hold abilities should warn the user that the tap/hold functionality of the incoming ability will override the functionality of Lavos' passive for that slotted ability.

Thought Process:

Subsuming an ability on to Lavos disables the element associated with that ability eg. removing Ophidian Bite removes Lavos' ability to synthesize Toxin and, by extension: Viral, Corrosive, and Gas. Because of this behavior, one would think that the ability to add elements was linked to the ability itself, and not Lavos' passive. However, subsuming Vial Rush onto a different warframe doesn't confer the benefit of giving cold damage on ability casts either.

It should be one or the other; either the mechanic is treated as Lavos' passive and he should be able to make any element regardless of what ability occupies that slot, or it should be tied to the ability and Vial Rush should confer the cold damage synthesize mechanic when subsumed to other warframes. It's inconsistent the way it is now.

Personally because not being able to subsume abilities without losing parts of Lavos' passive kinda discourages experimenting with helminth abilities on him in the first place, I would want to see it go the first way such that Lavos is able to make any element regardless of what abilities he has.

 

On Lavos 1 (Ophidian Bite):

The damage on this ability doesn't scale very well, but the damage from his 2 and 4 are both great so it's not really that big of a deal. If it's meant to be solely used for its healing and slight cc, then that's fine.

 

On Lavos 2 (Vial Rush):

Problem 1:

Ever since Vial Rush was given a recast delay, the ability has just felt clunky.

Suggested Solution:

Shorten or remove the recast delay, or add it as an option.

Thought Process:

ATM the best way to instantly recast the ability is to jump out of it, but that's inconvenient because I don't want to jump. This goes back to the unnecessarily tacked-on keystroke thing. Additionally, Lavos is not a warframe that you spam abilities on in the first place. Infact he's kind of the only warframe in the game that you can't spam abilities on. Because of this, I believe that it's a lot less likely to mistakenly recast any of his abilities to begin with, and the forced ~0.5s recast delay makes playing Lavos WAAAY more clunky than how he felt on release.

 

Problem 2:

Casting Vial Rush cancels toggled sprint.

Suggested Solution:

Toggled sprint should continue after Vial Rush's cast.

Thought Process:

He's already a finicky frame with all the element holding and tapping.  Having to hold shift after every cast of his 2 just adds to the nonsense, and is one more reason why I don't enjoy playing him. (credit: sunderthefirmament)

On Lavos 3 (Transmutation Probe):

Problem 1:

Similarly to Vial Rush, Transmutation Probe was given a recast delay which makes it feel clunky to use.

Suggested Solution:

Shorten or remove the recast delay, or add it as an option.

Thought Process:

This ability is even more clunkier than Vial Rush due to the fact that you can't even stop it by jumping - you're forced to wait out that delay. Both of these abilities just feel really, really bad after having played Lavos on release and enjoying how smooth the gameplay felt, just to have this be added afterwards.

 

On Lavos 4 (Catalyze):

This ability is perfect imo. The only minor issue I had with it was its travel speed, which has already been addressed. Ty DE :)

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

His 4 also has an issue with having very limited vertical reach. Which becomes a massive issue with the increasing number of maps with notable verticality.

[sunderthefirmament]

Solid suggestions, though I think that if you Helminth an ability onto him you should have to give up that element.  Unpopular opinion, I know, but it would save a lot of programming for DE (tap hold already has functionality for some Helminth abilities) and lead to less of the Roar spam that makes everyone feel same-y.

 

I'd add a suggestion to his 2 to not disable the sprint toggle when used.  He's already a finicky frame with all the element holding and tapping.  Having to hold shift after every cast of his 2 just adds to the nonsense, and is one more reason why I don't enjoy playing him.

[Ordel]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

His 4 also has an issue with having very limited vertical reach. Which becomes a massive issue with the increasing number of maps with notable verticality.

TBH I haven't really had verticality issues since Lavos' last QoL pass where they added some height to it. Sometimes I'll have to jump midair and cast the ability to get some enemies.

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Solid suggestions, though I think that if you Helminth an ability onto him you should have to give up that element.  Unpopular opinion, I know, but it would save a lot of programming for DE (tap hold already has functionality for some Helminth abilities) and lead to less of the Roar spam that makes everyone feel same-y.

Yeah, I totally understand your view. It just really sucks because the way I see it, the other frames in general tend to helminth off an ability that they can comfortably go without, whereas Lavos - regardless of what ability the user chooses (probably 1 or 3) - they lose not just the ability, but rather the ability and a big chunk of his passive.

I know there's not a super clean solution to it, but this is what I was thinking when I wrote this (I didn't add it because idk there's probably better options than what I thought)

I think ideally:
Single-function tap only abilities should function as normal, and the unused hold functionality should be given to Lavos' passive.

Tap/hold abilities should warn the user before they helminth it to Lavos that the tap/hold functionality of the chosen ability will override Lavos' passive.

I think this way, it'll be a little less punishing to use the wide variety of single-function abilities while still giving the option to use the tap/hold ones.

I haven't put much thought into this idea though tbh.

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I'd add a suggestion to his 2 to not disable the sprint toggle when used.  He's already a finicky frame with all the element holding and tapping.  Having to hold shift after every cast of his 2 just adds to the nonsense, and is one more reason why I don't enjoy playing him.

Adding. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

17 hours ago, Ordel said:

On the elemental passive:

Problem 1:

Lavos' chosen element is emptied/reset after every ability cast.

Suggested Solution:

Instead of resetting the chosen element after a cast, the element should stay or have a timer associated with it. All of Lavos' abilities from that point on (or cast within that window of time) should be imbued with the chosen element. Changing elements should override the currently selected element (refreshing the timer) and then continue this behavior.

Thought Process:

Having to remake the elements for EVERY single cast adds a lot of extra unnecessary actions - especially if the player is making a secondary/combined element.

Casting his abilities once with corrosive for example, left to right, needs these keystrokes:

In actual gameplay, you're likely to be casting your 1 and 2 much more often; this just a small example. Additionally it's not like there's a reason to NOT have an element at the ready, so it's safe to assume that one would just want to always have SOME element on.

If you're using one element across the entire set of abilities, you could probably be doing something more productive. Even if it's layering electric Vials out for control then turning around to tag groups with Viral snekbite/probe.

If you're using different elements, then the keystrokes are pretty much no different - especially if you account for the differing ideal cast orders and cooldowns staggering what you can toss out again afterwards.

17 hours ago, Ordel said:

Problem 2:

Although the ability to synthesize elements is part of Lavos' passive, subsumed abilities are unable to be used in this manner.

Suggested Solution:

The ability to make elements should be treated like a passive, independent of the abilities in any of Lavos' slots. Tap/hold abilities should warn the user that the tap/hold functionality of the incoming ability will override the functionality of Lavos' passive for that slotted ability.

 

Definitely a problem currently. Ideally some way to still have the elemental infusions even with multifunctional Helminth-replaced abilities would be best, but anything is a step up. How they released Lavos in a world where Helminth was already an established concept without considering the problem of locking his signature functionality to all of his own abilities exclusively is beyond me.

17 hours ago, Ordel said:

On Lavos 2 (Vial Rush):

Problem 1:

Ever since Vial Rush was given a recast delay, the ability has just felt clunky.

Suggested Solution:

Shorten or remove the recast delay, or add it as an option.

Thought Process:

ATM the best way to instantly recast the ability is to jump out of it, but that's inconvenient because I don't want to jump. This goes back to the unnecessarily tacked-on keystroke thing. Additionally, Lavos is not a warframe that you spam abilities on in the first place. Infact he's kind of the only warframe in the game that you can't spam abilities on. Because of this, I believe that it's a lot less likely to mistakenly recast any of his abilities to begin with, and the forced ~0.5s recast delay makes playing Lavos WAAAY more clunky than how he felt on release.

This problem pretty much goes away by necessity if you play Lavos with the logically correct setting (Tap to Infuse, Hold to Cast) because you'll always have a hold delay for recast-cancel, therefore jump-cancelling becomes muscle-memorised by default. I could probably forget recast cancelling is even a thing that exists.

It's also a lot easier to accidentally cut yourself short, particularly if you're trying to quick-infuse Cold while on the move but don't quite hold long enough, with tap-casting. I think the delay is justified on that basis.

17 hours ago, Ordel said:

Problem 2:

Casting Vial Rush cancels toggled sprint.

lol sprinting

17 hours ago, Ordel said:

On Lavos 3 (Transmutation Probe):

Similarly to Vial Rush, Transmutation Probe was given a recast delay which makes it feel clunky to use.

Same debatable argument as for the Vial Rush recast - accidental tap to cancel is an easy mistake to make when mixing elements on the fly, if that's the way your settings are.

17 hours ago, Ordel said:

On Lavos 4 (Catalyze):

This ability is perfect imo. The only minor issue I had with it was its travel speed, which has already been addressed. Ty DE :)

Verticality is a problem. There's also the problem of the rest of the kit not really working with it properly as status primers due to range limitations (Vials) and general shape mismatching (cone/directional versus PBAOE radial) which cooldowns naturally prevent the player from counteracting with extra casts. Also the fact you absolutely want to Probe after Catalyse for the cooldown reduction, not before - even more limited freedom to prime status by abilities.

[Monolake]

We've told it DE day one, absolutely everyone agreed that Lavos controls are physically painful - having to hold skill every time (several buttons to combo elements every time!) will strain your fingers and cause real pain. And we gave many ideas to solve it, like keeping the elements pre-selected with no need to press it every time...

So where is the change? DE gave up on it, they dont even read feedback and dont care that the frame controls are so bad they are causing pain so no one plays it as a result.

[sunderthefirmament]

6 hours ago, Monolake said:

We've told it DE day one, absolutely everyone agreed that Lavos controls are physically painful - having to hold skill every time (several buttons to combo elements every time!) will strain your fingers and cause real pain. And we gave many ideas to solve it, like keeping the elements pre-selected with no need to press it every time...

So where is the change? DE gave up on it, they dont even read feedback and dont care that the frame controls are so bad they are causing pain so no one plays it as a result.

It gets a little better with tap/hold inversion, which is now thankfully on a per-frame basis.  But yeah, it's still terrible.  And with a game this bloated, I worry that you might be right.  This might never get revisited.  Or if it does, it might not be until his deluxe skin or his prime.

[Ordel]

19 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

If you're using one element across the entire set of abilities, you could probably be doing something more productive.

We're warframe players and forum users. When the hell did we start caring about productivity?

Just let me slap viral on at the start of a grineer mission and have it be one and done.

Would you rather just not have that for some reason/arguing against that implementation? Otherwise what's the point of this bit?

19 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

If you're using different elements, then the keystrokes are pretty much no different - especially if you account for the differing ideal cast orders and cooldowns staggering what you can toss out again afterwards.

Right but I'm not always using different elements for every single mission. Again - for the times when I'm not switching elements constantly, what is wrong with just wanting the element I chose to not be consumed? This wouldn't affect the times when I'm switching elements constantly whatsoever. You can see the keystroke difference between casting each ability with and without the toggle. I can't see what would be wrong with that.

19 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

but anything is a step up.

ya

19 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

This problem pretty much goes away by necessity if you play Lavos with the logically correct setting (Tap to Infuse, Hold to Cast) because you'll always have a hold delay for recast-cancel, therefore jump-cancelling becomes muscle-memorised by default. I could probably forget recast cancelling is even a thing that exists.

It's also a lot easier to accidentally cut yourself short, particularly if you're trying to quick-infuse Cold while on the move but don't quite hold long enough, with tap-casting. I think the delay is justified on that basis.

Disagree but that's a preferential thing so it doesn't matter what I think really.

19 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

-snip- if that's the way your settings are.

It's not.

19 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Verticality is a problem.

I think the smart thing to do is to play to your frame's strengths. Work on your positioning (eg. being in the middle of a crowd and finding flat enough rooms to work with) and use status spreaders if you need to (if your goal is to use Catalyze well); the frame shouldn't do absolutely everything. That's the beauty of having weapons, pets, and sometimes teammates if you'd like to count that. This problem pretty much goes away by necessity if you play Lavos with the logically correct positioning imo.

19 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

There's also the problem of the rest of the kit not really working with it properly as status primers due to range limitations

I see where you're coming from but this is also solved by just positioning well tbh.

19 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Also the fact you absolutely want to Probe after Catalyse for the cooldown reduction, not before - even more limited freedom to prime status by abilities.

Playstyle difference ig but I prime with weapons, abilities, and mecha set. I think it's okay for abilities to not be the sole source of status priming.

13 hours ago, Monolake said:

-snip-

Please don't attempt to derail the thread into a DE hate thing. Those are weird as hell. :/

[Nebu4]

I really really love the idea of not resetting the chosen elements on lavos, it's really annoying how many buttons you have to click just to cast a certain ability. I think that his 1 would've been far greater if you could still move around and cast it instead of being locked in place

[TheLexiConArtist]

11 hours ago, Ordel said:

Disagree but that's a preferential thing so it doesn't matter what I think really.

--

This problem pretty much goes away by necessity if you play Lavos with the logically correct positioning imo.

There was no need for the smarmy paraphrase. I chose my words carefully. "Logically correct" is not the same thing as "objectively correct".

It's logical to have tap-infuse because it provides minimal input time to the most desirable outcome of casting infused abilities and to access any given outcome - no more than two taps and one hold - and also because the cooldowns preclude multiple casts in instant succession anyway.
Similar logic applies for most other multifunction abilities, with the exception of Venari stance switching (though this is arguably because it's designed more likely to be using the ability of a stance repeatedly while switching is far more infrequently desired) for example you can get to and cast any given arrow from Ivara's Quiver fastest if tap-cycling (max 3T+1H)

Subjectively, you can not like how the logical orientation feels for whatever reasons you have, build/playstyle or otherwise, and that's perfectly fine. I'm not attacking that.