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Revenant Delux. Reconsider. Do not destroy his theme.


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On 2021-07-04 at 5:11 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Don’t lie to me, Ervin.

You denying every piece of evidence I give does not equate to me not giving evidence. There is absolutely nothing in Revenants backstory or lore that mentions anything remotely vampire like. The only thing that remotely mentions it is the meta commentary from things like his frame description in the Arsenal and patchnotes. But that’s not concrete evidence for his theme as developer opinion can be subject to change and has no actual weight on the lore of the game. And it’s pretty much just mentioning that he mind controls people.

And your argument is still “He is undead therefor he is automatically a vampire”.

No I'm saying all vampires are undead, not the otherway around. There is also a backstory, given that what made Revenant Revenant is tied to the plains and prior to that there was another frame. Parts of that prior frame got altered by it's time in the depths of the lake, likely because the Tenno lost control of it or simply died in a transference accident. The quest we do states that we face a specter of the previous frame, which means it isnt the actual frame we face as such, it is an alternate version of it turned specter.

What I've been saying from the beginning is that the Orokin designed the original frame around the vampiric theme, just like they've designed many other frames around many other themes even if it is only part of their name. There is simply no sentient themed frame built that way by the Orokin. 

And if I may ask, is there a single frame in the entire game that has their actual theme spelled out in black and white? So why the obsession with Revenant and his theme?

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No I'm saying all vampires are undead, not the otherway around. There is also a backstory, given that what made Revenant Revenant is tied to the plains and prior to that there was another frame. Parts of that prior frame got altered by it's time in the depths of the lake, likely because the Tenno lost control of it or simply died in a transference accident. The quest we do states that we face a specter of the previous frame, which means it isnt the actual frame we face as such, it is an alternate version of it turned specter.

What I've been saying from the beginning is that the Orokin designed the original frame around the vampiric theme, just like they've designed many other frames around many other themes even if it is only part of their name. There is simply no sentient themed frame built that way by the Orokin. 

And if I may ask, is there a single frame in the entire game that has their actual theme spelled out in black and white? So why the obsession with Revenant and his theme?

There is zero evidence that Warden was a vampire themed. And as I stated in the past it makes zero logical sense for DE to make Revenants backstory about him being corrupted by Eidolons if there was zero intention of actually using that backstory to influence his abilities.

Nyx Mind, mind control/psychic

Excal, swordsman.

Volt, electricity.

Gauss, kinetic energy.

Mesa, gunslinger.

Ember, fire.

Hydroid, water.

Nidus, infested.

Octavia, music.

Banshee, sound.

Garuda, blood/gore

And I know you’re probably going to try and be like “oh but their name doesn’t directly correlated with those themes”. We’ve already established several arguments against that Warframe names usually have a looser connection to their theme. Or in the case of Garuda it’s in connection to her physical appearance with her claws looking like wings.

The obsession is because it’s blatantly obvious from his development history that the original intention was a fully Eidolon themed Warframe until he had the vampire theme shoved down his throat due to selfish indulgence. And all it did was waste a potentially amazing theme and give us a garbage Warframe. I refuse to just stand by and let this blatant injustice continue to be carried out.

Edited by (XBOX)GearsMatrix301
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1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

You cannot use the problematic theme as proof that the problematic theme should exist. That’s just building false evidence off a single point when that singular point is the thing being called into question.

It's your personal opinion that the theme is problematic. You're basing your entire argument around a personal belief you're attempting to present as objective fact, making your entire argument highly fallacious, and obviously wrong. As part of your fallacious argument, you also attempt to discredit your opposition for the very same reason your argument falls, yet refusing to admit your argument also falls for that reason, as seen here:

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

You cannot say that everything that I’m saying is an opinion and wrong and then turn around and say that you saying “I think he looks like a vampire” as evidence that he should have a vampire theme. When that is very blatantly just an opinion

 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Eidolons are not vampires. It is illogical to put a Warframe through a transformation regarding the Eidolons and have them come out of it with powers completely unrelated to them.

Wrong. Eidolons do not need to be vampires themselves to create vampires. Vampires are not exclusively born from other vampires. That's an unquestionable fact. As for Revenant, he is a revenant of the vampire kind, as evident by him having vampiric powers and a vampire theme The fact that he has that theme has even been admitted by you yourself.

But feel free to push your personal opinion as long as you like.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

It's your personal opinion that the theme is problematic. You're basing your entire argument around a personal belief you're attempting to present as objective fact, making your entire argument highly fallacious, and obviously wrong. As part of your fallacious argument, you also attempt to discredit your opposition for the very same reason your argument falls, yet refusing to admit your argument also falls for that reason, as seen here:

 

Wrong. Eidolons do not need to be vampires themselves to create vampires. Vampires are not exclusively born from other vampires. That's an unquestionable fact. As for Revenant, he is a revenant of the vampire kind, as evident by him having vampiric powers and a vampire theme The fact that he has that theme has even been admitted by you yourself.

But feel free to push your personal opinion as long as you like.

Ok then where’s your evidence that the vampire theme makes sense? Because right now al you’ve been giving me is some seriously insane jumps in logic that make zero sense.

That’s one of the most illogical thing I have ever heard. It makes absolutely zero sense that the Eidolons would corrupt a frame and the end result would be something completely unrelated to them. It makes far greater sense that a frame corrupted by the Eidolons would be Eidolon themed, not Vampire themed. Also the vampires created outside of being turned by other vampires were still turned by something relating to vampires. In the Brame Strokers Dracula movie Vlad drinks the blood coming from a statue. And is subsequently turned into a blood sucking monster. He doesn’t become a unicorn or a dragon. He becomes a vampire. Because vampires drink blood.  It would be like if I picked up a stone that gives me the power to control ice. Put when I obtain the power of the stone I now only have the ability to create iron rods. That’s the kind of illogic you’re trying to apply here.

Edited by (XBOX)GearsMatrix301
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4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Being better than the absolute bottom of the tier list doesn’t mean much.

It does though, because it means there are 20 frames in more need of a rework than Rev.

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12 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

There’s like 2 frames that Revenant is better than.

You need to take your own advice.

On 2021-07-04 at 8:11 AM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Don’t lie to me...

As to the rest ?
If your goal is "thematic accuracy and consistency" then kindly explain how Nidus' theme makes a lick of actual sense.

I'll wait...

Because if , by your reckoning, Revenant needs to be changed to support thematic continuity then Nidus needs to be erased completely.

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10 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Because if , by your reckoning, Revenant needs to be changed to support thematic continuity then Nidus needs to be erased completely.

I'm curious, how do you figure that?  Warframes are "infestation - controlled."  As far as I know, the lore is a little unclear about whether the Infestation is something the Orokin created as a weapon against the Sentients and lost control of, or whether it was an ancient techno-plague that they'd never been able to (or bothered to) eradicate completely.  Either way, it was something they had lying around, and they used it to create Warframes as specifically anti-Sentient weapons platforms.  Nidus is just a lot more obviously linked to the Infestation than most Warframes.  *ALL* Warframes are Infested Hybrids though.  As evidence:  every single time the Infestation hivemind *does* try to talk to us, it is because of it's deep confusion that something that it senses as "of itself" is openly attacking it.  IE, all the "We are of one flesh, why do you harm us?!?" comms from entities like Phorid.

As for Revenant:  He has a vampire theme, because the devs literally MADE HIM to have a vampire theme.  Someone doesn't like that theme.  Too bad.  Flailing around about "the lore" doesn't help, and won't change the fact that he started out as "Vlad-frame."  I don't feel like looking it up (because I personally don't care) but I'm reasonably sure he started out with a different Fourth power.  It was dropped and replaced with the Laser Disco Dance when they decided that they wanted to *also* throw in some Eidolon flavor to his powersets, and Eidolons being linked to "massive lazer beams of death" was kind of a thing that had happened in their design.  His adaptive armor could just be "a Warframe power," without any obvious Sentient leanings *except* they decided to give it ghostly tentacles as another nod to Eidolons.  It could easily exist without that theme (and actually might on his Prime, depending on if they decide to lean into the Warden or not when making the visuals.)  Mesmerize could go either way, since mentally dominating dominating stuff is both a vampire thing and apparently a Sentient thing (the few lore fragments about Sentients seizing control of the Orokin's magic-tech level automated defense systems and turning them against the Orokin.)

If someone doesn't *like* Revenants vampire theme... too bad.  It exists because the devs said so.  Warframe's lore is *deliberately* vague, full of holes, and occasionally self contradictory.  (Again, see:  Valkyr, Valkry Gersemi, and Valkyr Prime for a small and really irrelevant example.)  "There's no reason for him to have a vampire theme!!!"  Except the reason is that he clearly *has* touches of vampire theme, in both Mesmerize and his "turn into mist and devour health" powers.  And his looks.  And his filnename of "Vlad."  And the fact that I'm pretty sure the devs have *openly stated that he is vampire adjacent.*  And his backstory of having betrayed his duty, become the unquiet and restless dead, and then "returning" from death as UndeadFrame when the Tenno and Nakak went out and started poking at stuff that they maybe should have left alone.  The "reason" he has vampire themes is:  because the people who wrote him said so.  IE, exactly the same reason that Hydroid is vaguely "ocean lord / Davy Jones" themed.  (And the inspiration from Pirates of the Caribbean's Davy Jones was made even more thuddingly obvious with Hydroid Prime.)

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok then where’s your evidence that the vampire theme makes sense? Because right now al you’ve been giving me is some seriously insane jumps in logic that make zero sense.

That’s one of the most illogical thing I have ever heard. It makes absolutely zero sense that the Eidolons would corrupt a frame and the end result would be something completely unrelated to them. It makes far greater sense that a frame corrupted by the Eidolons would be Eidolon themed, not Vampire themed. Also the vampires created outside of being turned by other vampires were still turned by something relating to vampires. In the Brame Strokers Dracula movie Vlad drinks the blood coming from a statue. And is subsequently turned into a blood sucking monster. He doesn’t become a unicorn or a dragon. He becomes a vampire. Because vampires drink blood.  It would be like if I picked up a stone that gives me the power to control ice. Put when I obtain the power of the stone I now only have the ability to create iron rods. That’s the kind of illogic you’re trying to apply here.

That's an argument from personal incredulity, which is a fallacy. "I find it illogical, therefore it must be wrong." A quick google search reveals that according to various folklore, vampires can be created in a ton of different ways, even from such a simple thing as a dog jumping over a corpse. Revenant's lore - falling from the world of the living, becoming a mask for an Eidolon and housing its violence, being reborn a revenant (source: Mask of the Revenant) - that kind of corruption is one of the ways a vampire can be created. A malevolent spirit possessing a corpse can create a revenant of the vampire kind.

Also,

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

It makes far greater sense that a frame corrupted by the Eidolons would be Eidolon themed, not Vampire themed.

This is also fallacy: a false dilemma. There's nothing stopping a frame from having both the Eidolon and the Vampire theme, as evident by Revenant himself - a vampire with Eidolon flavor.

Looking forward to your next personal opinion.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

That's an argument from personal incredulity, which is a fallacy. "I find it illogical, therefore it must be wrong." A quick google search reveals that according to various folklore, vampires can be created in a ton of different ways, even from such a simple thing as a dog jumping over a corpse. Revenant's lore - falling from the world of the living, becoming a mask for an Eidolon and housing its violence, being reborn a revenant (source: Mask of the Revenant) - that kind of corruption is one of the ways a vampire can be created. A malevolent spirit possessing a corpse can create a revenant of the vampire kind.

 

Again, I'll bring up the real-world skeleton of a little girl buried with a stone jammed in her mouth.  The people who buried her were clearly worried she might *become* a vampire and return as an undying corpse to spread disease.  "What could have turned her into a vampire?"  Probably dying from malaria.  They were only "a little" worried, which is why she only had to spend eternity eating a rock instead of the much more horrible and brutal (and disturbing to the living) anti-vampire precautions like beheading and burning.  Aside from the part where "chop and fry" might not have been part of the vampire tradition in that area, because vampire traditions and legends are both literally and metaphorically all over the place.

Just for ways I remember that could cause someone to rise as a vampire (depending on time and location, because vampire myths varied *widely* with both):  dying of disease.  Breaking an oath.  Being a faithless lover / spouse.  Being a wicked person who died violently.  Dying without receiving last rites.  And in *a few* cases, being killed in a way that strongly suggested another vampire might have done it - such as dying of a wasting illness, dying alone (and not getting last rites) or dying of "unexplained causes" when the victim seemed otherwise healthy.  IE, dying suddenly of a stroke, heart attack or aneurism *might* have been reason to suspect someone *could* become a vampire if they weren't visibly ill, because to any non-medically trained observers the cause of death would have been "they just up and died."

Edited by EmberStar
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

That's an argument from personal incredulity, which is a fallacy. "I find it illogical, therefore it must be wrong." A quick google search reveals that according to various folklore, vampires can be created in a ton of different ways, even from such a simple thing as a dog jumping over a corpse. Revenant's lore - falling from the world of the living, becoming a mask for an Eidolon and housing its violence, being reborn a revenant (source: Mask of the Revenant) - that kind of corruption is one of the ways a vampire can be created. A malevolent spirit possessing a corpse can create a revenant of the vampire kind.

Also,

This is also fallacy: a false dilemma. There's nothing stopping a frame from having both the Eidolon and the Vampire theme, as evident by Revenant himself - a vampire with Eidolon flavor.

Looking forward to your next personal opinion.

That’s just your opinion. There’s nothing within the lore that supports vampire creation through corruption from giant undead laser firing robots. And it’s rather absurd to say “A dog jumping over a corpse created a vampire therefor Eidolons create a vampire”. Because you’re just creating a scenario where literally ANYTHING can create a vampire. I order a pizza I’m now a vampire. I open my mail I’m now a vampire. I get bitten by a werewolf, boom I’m now a vampire. You’ve essentially cast your net of “logic” so far it’s actually hard to take you seriously on this anymore.

While there is nothing from stopping it from happening. The current result of it happening is proof enough that it shouldn’t have happened.

Edited by (XBOX)GearsMatrix301
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1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

You need to take your own advice.

As to the rest ?
If your goal is "thematic accuracy and consistency" then kindly explain how Nidus' theme makes a lick of actual sense.

I'll wait...

Because if , by your reckoning, Revenant needs to be changed to support thematic continuity then Nidus needs to be erased completely.

Well the only 2 that came to immediate mind is Nyx and Hydroid. And that’s me being fair as well since to my own personal bias Revenant is the absolute worst frame in the game. And that’s factoring ability design along with performance. Not just performance.

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To summarize/clarify:  The idea that a vampire must be created by another vampire is a relatively *modern* addition to the lore.  In some vampire myths, vampires can happen *spontaneously* if conditions are right, especially if the person was already wicked or sinful, or the corpse wasn't cared for properly.

One of the reasons criminals were sometimes executed at a crossroads and their bodies left to rot is because of "vampire adjacent" myths.  (Another reason is that if you're going to make an example of someone by leaving them to die of starvation and exposure, you want as many people as possible to see it.)  But basically, the undead were sometimes assumed to have a poor sense of direction.  A criminal left to die in a crow cage (or just hanged) was already a wicked person who died a violent death.  IE, a prime candidate to come back as a dangerous, violent, restless dead.  Leaving their body at a crossroads meant that they would be unable to decide how to find their way back to wreak their deathless vengeance on those who killed them. (IE, the judge and executioners.)  The part where it *also* made the execution super visible and something people would be forced to notice was not accidental either, I'm sure.

One version of vampire traditions was that you should be *VERY* careful about giving directions to someone standing at a crossroads and unsure of where to go, because you might unwittingly be setting a dangerously clever undead on the path to enacting their bloody vengeance.  Or by refusing you might be pissing off a witch/fae/godling who is testing passerby so they can punish anyone who refuses to aid the needy - damned if you do, damned if you don't.  Myths are fun like that.

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4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

And it’s rather absurd to say “A dog jumping over a corpse created a vampire therefor Eidolons create a vampire”.

That's your personal opinion arguing with established folklore. Sorry bud, but what you find absurd doesn't trump reality.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

There’s nothing within the lore that supports vampire creation through corruption from giant undead laser firing robots.

Geez, that's just as nonsensical as if you would've said "There's nothing within the lore that supports a warframe acquiring Eidolon-flavored powers through corruption". Obviously, there's something within the lore that supports vampire creation through corruption from giant undead laser firing robots: the very fact that it happened! Like what, do you need it to happen twice?

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

While there is nothing from stopping it from happening. The current result of it happening is proof enough that it should have happened.

FTFY.

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4 hours ago, EmberStar said:

I'm curious, how do you figure that?  Warframes are "infestation - controlled."  As far as I know, the lore is a little unclear about whether the Infestation is something the Orokin created as a weapon against the Sentients and lost control of, or whether it was an ancient techno-plague that they'd never been able to (or bothered to) eradicate completely.  Either way, it was something they had lying around, and they used it to create Warframes as specifically anti-Sentient weapons platforms.  Nidus is just a lot more obviously linked to the Infestation than most Warframes.  *ALL* Warframes are Infested Hybrids though.  As evidence:  every single time the Infestation hivemind *does* try to talk to us, it is because of it's deep confusion that something that it senses as "of itself" is openly attacking it.  IE, all the "We are of one flesh, why do you harm us?!?" comms from entities like Phorid.

That's my point...

Nidus is an entirely mutated strain of warframe (warframes were created by exposing subjects to the Helminth strain of the techno-cyte virus)  that has become a mutated culture for it through benign exposure to the regular Techno-cyte strain. 

Frames should either be completely bricked from either the Helminth, the Techno-cyte,  or rendered completely inoperable by the removal of the cyst...Thematically speaking.

 Since the mutated strain exists (a version of the Techno-cyte that Helminth exists harmoniously with), has been presented, and because Helminth simply can't/won't actually cure itself. Credit to DE for attempting to make sense of it with the cyst removal but it simply can't work thematically because it amounts to a snake that eats itself. 

Thematically, either every frame should now either:

  • Be a Nidus
  • The Infestation should die immediately whenever a Warframe is around it whether powers get used or not.
  • Be under control of the Technocyte Hivemind

That's a massive kink in Nidus' theme that won't ever be gotten around and is actively glossed over by players... Gears included.

 It's certainly larger than a discussion regarding Revenant's theme... That at least could be cleared with a sentence of back story.

I didn't see @(XBOX)GearsMatrix301 responding to the Nidus question because he simply couldn't without appearing hypocritical in the process.  Gears just so happens to be a fairly large Nidus fan.

So much for Thematic Continuity...

 

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

That's my point...

Nidus is an entirely mutated strain of warframe (warframes were created by exposing subjects to the Helminth strain of the techno-cyte virus)  that has become a mutated culture for it through benign exposure to the regular Techno-cyte strain. 

Frames should either be completely bricked from either the Helminth, the Techno-cyte,  or rendered completely inoperable by the removal of the cyst...Thematically speaking.

 Since the mutated strain exists (a version of the Techno-cyte that Helminth exists harmoniously with), has been presented, and because Helminth simply can't/won't actually cure itself. Credit to DE for attempting to make sense of it with the cyst removal but it simply can't work thematically because it amounts to a snake that eats itself. 

Thematically, either every frame should now either:

  • Be a Nidus
  • The Infestation should die immediately whenever a Warframe is around it whether powers get used or not.
  • Be under control of the Technocyte Hivemind

That's a massive kink in Nidus' theme that won't ever be gotten around and is actively glossed over by players... Gears included.

 It's certainly larger than a discussion regarding Revenant's theme... That at least could be cleared with a sentence of back story.

I didn't see @(XBOX)GearsMatrix301 responding to the Nidus question because he simply couldn't without appearing hypocritical in the process.  Gears just so happens to be a fairly large Nidus fan.

So much for Thematic Continuity...

 

I'm sorry, but I completely don't follow here.  For all we know, Helminth's cyst is something the Helminth created all by itself while it was locked alone in its room in the Orbiter for a thousand years.  The cyst doesn't seem to harm Warframes, or even interact with them beyond being able to spread between them (and notably, NOT to normal people.)  Based on the Helminth's sorrowful comment when you remove it, I don't think it's intended as anything other than a benign gift.  "Why do you refuse my beauty?"  It *also* happens to be useful to create a single type of non-Warframe benign Infested creature - the Infested Kubrow strain.

Since no one is *required* to even get a Cyst with Nidus, there's pretty much zero basis for somehow(?) extrapolating that the cyst is in any way essential.  From what little I can see, it is *entirely* the Helminth simply being glad to interact with another being aside from the ship cephalons.  Since normal Infested share a hivemind, it seems likely (even probable) that any Helminth is the same as all Helminth - we only *interact* with one copy of it, because we are now the Chosen One, Player Character and Most Important to the story.  But presumably, there's an equivalent Helminth on every Tenno orbiter, not to mention any hidden copies in forgotten labs that the the Orokin used when they initially created the Warframes.  IE, Helminth has been shut away and forgotten about for as long as the Tenno had been sleeping, and the rediscovery of the Nidus template was the first time in ages anyone had visited with it.  So it made the cyst as a way to celebrate.  The cyst itself is literally exactly what it looks like in-game:  a little blob of harmless Infestation that Helminth made as a gift for the returning Warframes.

*Edit*  We also don't have any real evidence that Nidus wasn't *created* by the Orokin to be exactly what he is now - a more overt way to try to harness and weaponize the Infestation.  The one *direct* piece of lore we have about any of the Warframes is that *Excalibur* was the first one to be made.  It's literally part of the description for Excalibur Prime in the Codex.  And I don't recall any evidence that Nidus is an any way "mutated" from his original form, beyond the fact that all "normal" Warframes represent the simpler (and much cheaper to produce) production models that were most likely meant to be used in combat against the Sentients.  (The Primes being either the original or "perfected" version that would be granted to special Tenno as "dress uniform" Warframes or as a badge of office, or whatever.)

I really don't understand how Nidus somehow "breaks" Warframe lore, nor how the Nidus Prime (which WILL happen when it's his turn) will somehow be a contradiction.  Nidus is what he was *made* to be, just like every other Warframe.  Whether he was entirely *intentional* or not is a different story - Ballas' ruminations in the Mirage Prime trailer hint that the Orokin might not have been as all-knowing in that regard as Ballas would like to pretend they were.  IE, the line that somehow Mirage Prime *subverted* her own intended design as a Warframe, which is hinted at by the fact that so far she's the only *known* Warframe with anything even resembling visible human eyes.  Being nearly or completely *eyeless* seems to have been a deliberate design choice on most other Warframes, so much so that seeing a glimpse of an actual eye in that one cutscene is clearly intended to be a startling, even alarming moment.  We've got a couple other Warframes with glowing patches that resemble eyespots (such as Harrow) but they're often strangely placed or even asymmetrical.  (Or they're a feature of Tennogen such as the Graxx line, which are A) probably not entirely canon and B) deliberately made to look like a "Grineer disguise" for the Warframe.)

Edited by EmberStar
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, EmberStar said:

For all we know, Helminth's cyst is something the Helminth created all by itself while it was locked alone in its room in the Orbiter for a thousand years.

We actually do know that isn't the case...

Nidus is the direct result of a benign Techno-cyte managing to incorporate itself into a frame.

We know this from the quest that introduced the frame.... Which, incidentally, also voids discussion about Orokin involvement since the Mycona Colony would never have been allowed to exist during Orokin rule

The problem, in this case, is that Helminth is also a version of techno-cyte that just so happens to be resistant to The Techno-cyte virus to begin with.

Essentially, Nidus is both Helmith and Techno-cyte...which shouldn't be possible given that Helmith was designed by the Orokin to be immune from the Technovirus to begin with.

Helminth would never have developed antibodies against itself—Which is precisely what permanently removing a cyst (which is practically impossible to begin with) would require. Likewise it wouldn't have antibodies against that benign strain of the Technovirus or Nidus wouldn't exist as-is to begin with. 

Nidus simply makes no sense thematically positioned against the lore of the game and is, functionally, no different from plot armor.

So, Yes... Revenant's quibbles regarding theme can literally be cleared up in a sentence.

Nothing short of an eraser could ever clear up Nidus' thematic inconsistencies though.

 

 

Edited by Padre_Akais
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Nidus is presented through the entire quest as a "Relic of the Old War."  They never once mention him being infected with or altered by the Infestation.  If you believe otherwise, citation required.  The *exact* line of dialogue, please.  They don't even reveal that the "Relic of the Old War" everyone is fighting over is a non-functional Warframe until the END of the quest when Perrin gives it to the Tenno as a reward.  (And to keep it away from Nef Anyo, since it's clearly no longer safe to keep it anywhere else now that Nef knows it exists.)  The Mycona colony exists because they discovered a way to make their OWN version of an Infested Hybrid, which is what they mention (repeatedly) that the Infestation is afraid of and repelled by, and the existence of this Mycona Strain is what has protected them.  They may possibly have made that discovery by trying to reverse engineer their Old War Relic,.

Helminth is a unique version of Infestation, linked directly to the existence of Warframes.  It *exists* to serve them, help fabricate and repair their components.  It views Warframes as kin, which is different than "wild" Infestation that can sense a connection but inherently FEARS Warframes.  Helminth is repelled by the Operator though, and fears their Void-touched strangeness.  (Evidence:  Both its own direct comments if you get the Operator into its room, and the fact that it will *lock the door* to keep the Operator out unless you deliberately jam it open by using Transference.)  It doesn't fear them, exactly, or at least not in the comments I've seen.  It doesn't like them though, and it very much would prefer the Operators to stay away from it.

Helmith is "refined" Infestation in loosely the same way that kerosene is "refined" crude oil.  One comes from the other, there are similarities, but one is most definitely artificial and created for a specific purpose.  Nothing about Helmith's nature is "negated" by the existence of Nidus.  The only thing Nidus did is provide a strong enough sense of kinship that Helminth chose to unlock the door despite the possible proximity of the Operator.  More recently, Son has made additional "improvements" to the Helminth strain, due to his own unique situation providing insights into Infested biology.  The fact that he's kind of a rebellious jerk who could be doing it *because* he knows the long dead Orokin would never permit it might also be a factor.

In any case, this all boils down to *exactly* the same thing that you're complaining about from the other poster.  You've created your own personal head-canon, which really has no influence at all on the story DE might choose to tell in the future.  It really doesn't matter if you agree with me or not, or if I convince you of anything.  (I am sure that I haven't, can't, and won't ever convince you of anything at all.)  DE will tell the story they plan to (or they will pivot and retcon and make things up at the last moment like they seem to have done with Khora when their big planned IPS Rework died.)  Maybe they will do something in the future that supports everything you've decided, or maybe they'll pull the rug and do something that proves you completely wrong.  Either way, I see no point in continuing to talk about it, since I'm fairly certain that doing so is completely pointless and an absolute waste of both of our time.

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19 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

There is zero evidence that Warden was a vampire themed. And as I stated in the past it makes zero logical sense for DE to make Revenants backstory about him being corrupted by Eidolons if there was zero intention of actually using that backstory to influence his abilities.

Nyx Mind, mind control/psychic

Excal, swordsman.

Volt, electricity.

Gauss, kinetic energy.

Mesa, gunslinger.

Ember, fire.

Hydroid, water.

Nidus, infested.

Octavia, music.

Banshee, sound.

Garuda, blood/gore

And I know you’re probably going to try and be like “oh but their name doesn’t directly correlated with those themes”. We’ve already established several arguments against that Warframe names usually have a looser connection to their theme. Or in the case of Garuda it’s in connection to her physical appearance with her claws looking like wings.

The obsession is because it’s blatantly obvious from his development history that the original intention was a fully Eidolon themed Warframe until he had the vampire theme shoved down his throat due to selfish indulgence. And all it did was waste a potentially amazing theme and give us a garbage Warframe. I refuse to just stand by and let this blatant injustice continue to be carried out.

3 out of 4 skills on Revenant are vampiric in theme, including traits such as mind control, mesmerization, shapeshifting and leeching. 

And your obsession is also odd because Rev started out with a full vampiric theme and a codename tied to that same theme aswell. The eidolon theme got forced later on.

Also "blatant injustice", what is this nonsense?

It is also funny that you defend Garuda, a frame that is completely disjoint from her name, including the physical appearance. A "female" named after a male bird deity while looking like a BDSM queen inspired by countess Bathory. Not that I dislike any of it, just a very very odd name for that frame in particular.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, EmberStar said:

Nidus is presented through the entire quest as a "Relic of the Old War."  They never once mention him being infected with or altered by the Infestation.

The quest is called The Glast Gambit the whole story revolves around a Tribe (The Mycona Colony) that has immunity to the Technocyte.

I don't need to cite anything specific because that's the setup for the entire quest. 

And, for what it's worth... 

All Tenno and Warframes are considered to be "Relics of the Old War" by the Lotus, Corpus, and Grineer and have been termed as such by each throughout the game's life.

As such, I'm not sure what made you think that assertion was particularly special... 

 

Edit:

Before you do your next full page of suppositions ( I appreciated the subsequent page breaks as it made it easier to read) @EmberStar and since you like asking for citations...

Nidus is a frame that embodies the notion of Co-infection ( a body housing 2 strains of the same virus at once) so explain the following:

  • Do please cite an instance where this has occurred where at least one of those strains was specifically hostile to the other.
  • Then cite an instance where those opposing strains provide antibodies for each other to the host.
  • Then you can cite an instance where a virus literally provides antibodies against itself.

When you can explain how those things get done without the use of plot armor then we'll really be talking... Because right now you are guilty of what you've accused me of (head canon) given that everything you've stated is based on suppositions couched behind what amounts to Head Canon formed from what amounts to Plot Armor.

 

Edited by Padre_Akais
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13 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

That's your personal opinion arguing with established folklore. Sorry bud, but what you find absurd doesn't trump reality.

Geez, that's just as nonsensical as if you would've said "There's nothing within the lore that supports a warframe acquiring Eidolon-flavored powers through corruption". Obviously, there's something within the lore that supports vampire creation through corruption from giant undead laser firing robots: the very fact that it happened! Like what, do you need it to happen twice?

FTFY.

Someone’s folklore isn’t Warframes lore. You can’t directly apply the logic of one reality with another.

The whole arguement is over whether or not is should have been done. You can’t argue “It did happened and therefor is makes sense for it to happen”.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

3 out of 4 skills on Revenant are vampiric in theme, including traits such as mind control, mesmerization, shapeshifting and leeching. 

And your obsession is also odd because Rev started out with a full vampiric theme and a codename tied to that same theme aswell. The eidolon theme got forced later on.

Also "blatant injustice", what is this nonsense?

It is also funny that you defend Garuda, a frame that is completely disjoint from her name, including the physical appearance. A "female" named after a male bird deity while looking like a BDSM queen inspired by countess Bathory. Not that I dislike any of it, just a very very odd name for that frame in particular.

Wrong, Revenant started out as concept art for an “Eidolon Warframe” that was drawn up by the guy who was doing the concept art for the Eidolons at the time.

A frame being wasted due to someone’s own selfish desire for something completely unrelated to be forced into that frame? I consider that an injustice.

Her claws look like wings. That’s the most logical conclusion I can come up with as to why they chose the name. Still makes a lot more sense than giving a frame vampire powers with nothing in its backstory supporting it.

Edited by (XBOX)GearsMatrix301
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2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Someone’s folklore isn’t Warframes lore. You can’t directly apply the logic of one reality with another.

The whole arguement is over whether or not is should have been done. You can’t argue “It did happened and therefor is makes sense for it to happen”.

Actually, you can argue that... There are numerous examples of this throughout the game.

You, otoh, have spent the last few years pouting because you didn't get precisely what you wanted.

You've even gone so far as to lobby in the warframe feedback forum to have Revenant changed because it doesn't fit what your vision.

It's time for you to let it go...

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19 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Actually, you can argue that... There are numerous examples of this throughout the game.

You, otoh, have spent the last few years pouting because you didn't get precisely what you wanted.

You've even gone so far as to lobby in the warframe feedback forum to have Revenant changed because it doesn't fit what your vision.

It's time for you to let it go...

I’m taking from a logical point of view.

you cannot use the subject in question as evidence towards your point of view. It would be like if you’re in court and you say “The defense is guilty because they are currently being tried in court for a crime”.

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Wrong, Revenant started out as concept art for an “Eidolon Warframe” that was drawn up by the guy who was doing the concept art for the Eidolons at the time.

A frame being wasted due to someone’s own selfish desire for something completely unrelated to be forced into that frame? I consider that an injustice.

Her claws look like wings. That’s the most logical conclusion I can come up with as to why they chose the name. Still makes a lot more sense than giving a frame vampire powers with nothing in its backstory supporting it.

The concept art for him, which is still one of the fragments from the quest, was revealed at the same time as they went over his theme, at which point they refered to the vampiric theme and constantly also called the frame Vlad instead of the conceptual art name "Revenant". Not until later did they alter his kit to be more "eidolon" like, by replacing his previous ultimate.

And how does her claws look anything like wings? I guess it we stretch it they look like skeletal bird wings, but she isnt a dead bird so...

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