PvE Conclave Standing

[Kontrollo]

19 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

The "answer" I provided undermines that foundation, though. Conclave standing does not measure skill, and hardly - if at all, for that is debatable - serves as a bragging point or accomplishment. Almost certainly not one that's universally acclaimed, and most certainly no more acclaimed than any other syndicate.

So if a principle like "PvP things can't be earned by PvE" is based on "PvP things carry bragging rights that should be earned via PvP", then as soon as there are no associated "bragging rights", the principle fails. That is, simply, that it stops applying here.

...

Well, it's more like bragging rights for time spent, I guess.

The elephant in the room however is that Conclave isn't allowed to have any rewards that are relevant for progression in this game. The community and devs saw to that.

So this is what's left. I'd rather earn worthwhile rewards than cosmetics and would switch in a heartbeat if offered, tbqh.

[VoidArkhangel]

hace 12 minutos, Sevek7 dijo:

Uh... It's PvP... So of course it's competitive. What next? People see water as wet? I must have misunderstood you, please clarify.

Why do people do this to themselves?

Competitive means there is some form of competition wich means that two or more sides fight to win something that cannot be shared (there cannot be two N°1 prize) so if one side win the other(s) lose. Tell me, where on the Conclave you see an actual loss? you lost time, well you lost time defending the Conclave so is posting on the forums a competitive act? Of course not, there are infinite prizes for Conclave players so there isnt an actual loss meaning that it isnt competitive.

Oh well, you see everything as a race and time is a real prize so everything is competitive ok or you didnt understand what I said, its ok then Im referring to pretty much Rankeds. Im sure you heard of it but still:

Ranked stays for an in-game fight (match) between players to reach a unique/limited reward those being generally ranks and of course those ranks would have rewards like in-game currency and so but the point is if a player or team that have a rank fight another player or team, their rank is at risk so if they lose they lose more than time.

"Oh bUt ArE yOu BLinD? cOnclAvE hass RNAKS". YES it has ranks but do you lose them if you lose the match? do you lose anything if you lose the match? NO, in fact as someone said before:

hace 3 horas, Tyreaus dijo:

There aren't ranks in any traditional sense, certainly none that measure skill. I can lose every game I play and eventually reach max rank.

 

[Kontrollo]

18 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Competitive means there is some form of competition wich means that two or more sides fight to win something that cannot be shared (there cannot be two N°1 prize) so if one side win the other(s) lose. Tell me, where on the Conclave you see an actual loss? ...

Yes.

Let me explain to you how this works:

At the end of a match you'll have a screen with all the scores of everyone. In Annihilation there's one guy at the top, generally known as the match winner. However! In Team Annihilation, Capture the Cephalon and Lunaro, it's one of the teams that'll be the winner. Unless there's a draw.

Then depending on your performance you'll get a certain amount of standing with the Conclave Syndicate.

 

Then that round is done and if you want you can play another. Some statistics are then also recorded in your profile. It's like, say, soccer, where they play matches against each other, then maybe some more. Just that there isn't an official championship here.

But I'm sure DE will get there eventually.

[VoidArkhangel]

hace 3 minutos, Kontrollo dijo:

Yes.

Let me explain to you how this works:

At the end of a match you'll have a screen with all the scores of everyone. In Annihilation there's one guy at the top, generally known as the match winner. However! In Team Annihilation, Capture the Cephalon and Lunaro, it's one of the teams that'll be the winner. Unless there's a draw.

Then depending on your performance you'll get a certain amount of standing with the Conclave Syndicate.

 

Then that round is done and if you want you can play another. Some statistics are then also recorded in your profile. It's like, say, soccer, where they play matches against each other, then maybe some more. Just that there isn't an official championship here.

But I'm sure DE will get there eventually.

Ok, you didnt read everything, please try again.

[Kontrollo]

3 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Ok, you didnt read everything, please try again.

Oh but I did.

You just missed the point. The point is that you or your team wins the match. Then you can take a screenshot or whatever for proof if you want, and it'll never not be yours. Actual wins and losses.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

Are you serious? You spent your time playing a game-mode that you don't enjoy, simply to use cheats to ruin the game-mode for the people who actually enjoy it, as "revenge" for something that most of them didn't have a problem with anyway?

I always knew that there were toxic people in gaming communities. But wow.

Nah, that was just a bonus. We did it because it was the only realistic way of getting the skins we wanted with the remaining few and very good conclave players who still existed. Not that they don't still exist but their is less people playing it then when I played a few years back even but I could care less now tbh. You do what you must to get what you want and that is why I never minded people leeching from me and my skill in most the PvE endurance run wise. An eye for an eye as I saw it and so long as they remained alive I would carry them. Not sure about you but My behavior towards people leeching should of made me a good guy not "Toxic". To each their own though XD.

[VoidArkhangel]

hace 20 minutos, Kontrollo dijo:

Oh but I did.

You just missed the point. The point is that you or your team wins the match. Then you can take a screenshot or whatever for proof if you want, and it'll never not be yours. Actual wins and losses.

You didnt:

hace 54 minutos, VoidArkhangel dijo:

Tell me, where on the Conclave you see an actual loss? you lost time, well you lost time defending the Conclave so is posting on the forums a competitive act? Of course not, there are infinite prizes for Conclave players so there isnt an actual loss meaning that it isnt competitive.

Try again.

[Kontrollo]

1 hour ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Competitive means there is some form of competition wich means that two or more sides fight to win something that cannot be shared ...

You cannot share a match win.

QED.

[Tyreaus]

 

  

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

I dunno man, there's a lot of weapon skins and syandanas from Conclave that I don't have because I didn't play Conclave. Sounds like a reward that exists to me

So the answer I gave isn't your answer?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this makes it sound like the foundation for your principle is less about "braggability" or skill-measurement (as I proposed and you seemed to agree with), and more like, "if a reward is related to x, it should be gotten through x". Which would mean that most trading and universal medallions in general would all fall under the knife of that principle. After all, those are ways to get things without partaking in the related task.

Or are you saying that we should adhere to the principle of "PvP stuff only via PvP" on the basis of (most) PvP stuff is currently available only via PvP? That seems tautological, effectively saying that a principle is founded on the existence of the principle. _{Talk about pulling oneself up by your bootstraps...}

1 hour ago, Kontrollo said:

Well, it's more like bragging rights for time spent, I guess.

The elephant in the room however is that Conclave isn't allowed to have any rewards that are relevant for progression in this game. The community and devs saw to that.

So this is what's left. I'd rather earn worthwhile rewards than cosmetics and would switch in a heartbeat if offered, tbqh.

I agree that some bragging rights could be attributed to time spent. Even if that's nowhere near the boastability of a bona fide ranking system. But I think a principle built on that foundation has issues staying in its lane: see above about trading and the like ending up on a similar cutting board.

That said, I also firmly believe that, if Conclave were to be made like other syndicates - even if just to the point of accepting Universal Medallions - its rewards should be similar. Which, yes, includes unique weapons. If it's going to be treated like other syndicates, it should be treated like other syndicates, wholesale. (I'd argue it should include almost everything and just be a giant smorgasbord of relics and materials and blueprints from across the starchart. But that's just me~)

[Kontrollo]

1 minute ago, Tyreaus said:

...

I agree that some bragging rights could be attributed to time spent. Even if that's nowhere near the boastability of a bona fide ranking system. But I think a principle built on that foundation has issues staying in its lane: see above about trading and the like ending up on a similar cutting board.

That said, I also firmly believe that, if Conclave were to be made like other syndicates - even if just to the point of accepting Universal Medallions - its rewards should be similar. Which, yes, includes unique weapons. (I'd argue it should include almost everything and just be a giant smorgasbord of relics and materials and blueprints from across the starchart. But that's just me~)

The whole game is bragging rights for time spent if that's your goal, except the few cosmetics that are money-only like from Prime Access. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Yes, that's what Zylok was meant to be. They could put that into the Conclave shop, would be a good start. I don't mind that it's on other shops, as well. 

[Tyreaus]

Just now, Kontrollo said:

The whole game is bragging rights for time spent if that's your goal, except the few cosmetics that are money-only like from Prime Access. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's the other half of the problem: where lines are drawn. Is it okay for rewards to be "bypassed" via trading and the like if it's PvE? There's a way to draw that up: by creating a line between PvE and PvP, saying rewards can't cross that line. But I can also draw lines between different elements of PvE, like syndicates, and on that basis, say trading shouldn't be allowed. Or I can erase all the lines and say all "bypasses" are fine because you're still playing Warframe and, so, have bragging rights in that regard. It's...not exactly stable.

[TARINunit9]

13 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

 So the answer I gave isn't your answer?

I'm going to be frank: I have no idea what you are trying to argue. You keep changing it. First you ask "why should PvP grind not be allowed to be bypassed?" and then I give my answer. Then you ask "ok, but does Conclave deserve it? These rewards aren't very good" and I talk about "principle of the thing." Then you argue "but there aren't any rewards" which contradicts your previous argument, which I point out by telling you the rewards you already admitted exist.

As far as I can tell you just want an excuse to spend all your Universal Medals on Conclave, possibly out of an OCD tick of having an unmaxed syndicate, possibly out of pure spite against Conclave

[Kontrollo]

2 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

That's the other half of the problem: where lines are drawn. Is it okay for rewards to be "bypassed" via trading and the like if it's PvE? There's a way to draw that up: by creating a line between PvE and PvP, saying rewards can't cross that line. But I can also draw lines between different elements of PvE, like syndicates, and on that basis, say trading shouldn't be allowed. Or I can erase all the lines and say all "bypasses" are fine because you're still playing Warframe and, so, have bragging rights in that regard. It's...not exactly stable.

Well, in my opinion they should just allow trading for most if not all things. So you don't like X in this game? Play Y instead which you like and "trade your time spent".

But that's not where we are. We're at: "Don't like X in the game and how dare you put any more effort/rewards in that. Also move already existing things to Y."

[VoidArkhangel]

hace 47 minutos, Kontrollo dijo:

You cannot share a match win.

QED.

XD, a match win is not a reward. You should already know this, the team/player is on the match for a reward not for wining a match<- this on a competitive level.

The reward is what you get after the finish line. The match is the way you need to take to get the reward. You want the reward you need to win the match. You dont run a race because of winning the race, you run a race because of the reward and so it happens that for getting the reward you need to win the race. You loose the race = you loose the reward

So what was the match for is what is called a reward, what are the matches for on conclave? Reputation, can you lose reputation after the match? NO, can you lose your syandana if you lose the match? guess what... NO, nobody loses nothing more than time and overall everyone wins so its not competitive.

I cant make it more clearer, if you dont understand then I dont know, seek help or something.

[Kontrollo]

15 minutes ago, VoidArkhangel said:

XD, a match win is not a reward. You should already know this, the team/player is on the match for a reward not for wining a match<- this on a competitive level.

The reward is what you get after the finish line. The match is the way you need to take to get the reward. You want the reward you need to win the match. You dont run a race because of winning the race, you run a race because of the reward and so it happens that for getting the reward you need to win the race. You loose the race = you loose the reward

So what was the match for is what is called a reward, what are the matches for on conclave? Reputation, can you lose reputation after the match? NO, can you lose your syandana if you lose the match? guess what... NO, nobody loses nothing more than time and overall everyone wins so its not competitive.

I cant make it more clearer, if you dont understand then I dont know, seek help or something.

Well, I already knew that in the forum of a game where just so many people only play reward screen to reward screen this was going to be a hard sell.

But by that logic, the aforementioned soccer is not competitive, either. It's only matches with wins and losses! Teams compete with each other? Impossible!

Why is DE not handing out digital goodies in soccer? Where is DE when you need them?!

😉

 

 

_{(P.S. Oh but people lose syandana flames if they don't do -- or aren't able to do -- the challenges 😋)}

[Tyreaus]

55 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Well, in my opinion they should just allow trading for most if not all things. So you don't like X in this game? Play Y instead which you like and "trade your time spent".

Agreed, wholly. It's largely how other syndicates function, after all.

57 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I'm going to be frank: I have no idea what you are trying to argue. You keep changing it. First you ask "why should PvP grind not be allowed to be bypassed?" and then I give my answer. Then you ask "ok, but does Conclave deserve it? These rewards aren't very good" and I talk about "principle of the thing." Then you argue "but there aren't any rewards" which contradicts your previous argument, which I point out by telling you the rewards you already admitted exist.

As far as I can tell you just want an excuse to spend all your Universal Medals on Conclave, possibly out of an OCD tick of having an unmaxed syndicate, possibly out of pure spite against Conclave

It seems dubious you're reading my posts correctly. I apologize if I've not been clear somewhere. To my best understanding and recollection:

First, you're arguing from a principle that PvP rewards should not be acquired in PvE, and point to other games as examples. I am questioning why that principle exists - on a global scale - and based on that reason, whether it actually applies to Warframe. (Because the existence of a principle does not entail it is always applicable)

On that, I propose that I see merit if standing is associated with skill measurement. I think we agree that kind of system shouldn't be farmed, period. The issue is, Conclave standing isn't skill measurement. So that foundation, while it could apply everywhere (though it doesn't!), doesn't apply to Conclave. At the same time, I propose that it could be based on alternate accomplishments. Time spent in something, for example. But that doesn't work terribly well because we have various ways to bypass that principle in PvE - using systems (like trading) that are pretty common across other games. So that doesn't seem to be the underlying reason - or at least there's more to it to say why PvP is a special case.

From there, I haven't exactly got a lot to work with, because you're saying I answered my question (when I proposed and debunked an answer). My question is: what is the reason for disallowing PvP progression entirely within PvE modes in Warframe? You've pointed to principles with vague foundations that I've tried to identify to try to create an answer for that. The things I'm able to come up with don't apply to Warframe, which leaves your principle effectively unfounded in Warframe. At least insofar as this discussion has touched things.

If you want my argument in two sentences: "your principle that PvP progression can never be done in PvE runs into contradictions when one tries to fit the proposed foundations of that principle onto Warframe. So either something's fundamentally wrong in Warframe or those foundations don't apply here - and so the principle shouldn't, either."

And so I'm digging for some other foundation(s) on which to rest that principle that avoid that problem. But all I'm able to figure out so far are foundations that run head-first into it.

To clear up some other things:

1. I mentioned nothing about the quality of rewards. I mentioned standing and, specifically, how the standing system has negligible bragging rights tied to it, either by itself or by the rewards to which it grants access. Heck, you don't even need rewards to justify your proposed principle: if standing was equated to skill ranks, that'd be enough to say it shouldn't be farmed. (Again: issue there is that standing isn't so equated)

2. I have no spite against Conclave. In case the fact I do occasionally play - for entertainment - and have contributed to the Conclave forums more than just demanding the rewards be moved elsewhere isn't indication.

3. I certainly would like to use the medallions for Conclave because, besides the 1,000 standing going a ways further in Conclave than other syndicates (it's a drop in the bucket anywhere else), I'd most like to get the standing out of the way and be able to play it purely for my own craps and chuckles. It'd also help in a broader scheme by taking players who don't want to play Conclave out of Conclave so they don't help make games miserable, whether by mass exploitation of bugs or just generally poor attitudes. _{I would know, I was one such.}

[VoidArkhangel]

hace 16 minutos, Kontrollo dijo:

Well, I already knew that in the forum of a game where just so many people only play reward screen to reward screen this was going to be a hard sell.

But by that logic, the aforementioned soccer is not competitive, either. It's only matches with wins and losses! Teams compete with each other? Impossible!

Why is DE not handing out digital goodies in soccer? Where is DE when you need them?!

😉

 

 

_{(P.S. Oh but people lose syandana flames if they don't do -- or aren't able to do -- the challenges 😋)}

I knew I had to put that example there.

People play soccer for a couple reasons but mainly money (professionals.. I think), ever wondered why betting got out of control? see the e-sports, they arent doing it for fun if they were doing it for "win the match" as you said XD they would never accept to loose the match on purpose. Also I see you looking for an excuse no matter what so teams doesnt accept to loose in this way since its regulated so dont even bother ;)

But anyways, Soccer, why teams compete? to stay f*cking relevant ofc, for staying in the bussiness and that means more money since its 2+2, they know if they win a tournament they "rank up" if they rank up everyone else will pay them more and so, what do people say when referring to famous soccer teams? they won X championships, have Y trophies. Now think about the tipical kids soccer team the ones from school or something, they were competitive? you can say so but unless it was for proving that the team was the best of the entire school (wich is a little tournament of some sort) the matches were friendly, everyone won because there was nothing on the line.

I want to explain more but I will leave you with one question:

Why MMA is considered competitive while Pro Wrestling isnt at all apart from the script?

 

Also people lose the flames for not being active enough pretty much like muscle definition 😘

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

First, you're arguing from a principle that PvP rewards should not be acquired in PvE, and point to other games as examples. I am questioning why that principle exists - on a global scale - and based on that reason, whether it actually applies to Warframe. (Because the existence of a principle does not entail it is always applicable)

A fair question to ask

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

On that, I propose that I see merit if standing is associated with skill measurement. I think we agree that kind of system shouldn't be farmed, period. The issue is, Conclave standing isn't skill measurement. So that foundation, while it could apply everywhere (though it doesn't!), doesn't apply to Conclave. At the same time, I propose that it could be based on alternate accomplishments. Time spent in something, for example. But that doesn't work terribly well because we have various ways to bypass that principle in PvE - using systems (like trading) that are pretty common across other games. So that doesn't seem to be the underlying reason - or at least there's more to it to say why PvP is a special case.

I THINK I get what you're saying here. If I'm reading this right, this question is borne of Conclave using an XP system, functionally the same system as Cephalon Simaris. XP systems like this tick up when you accomplish kills and other tasks in PvP, but do not tick down for poor performance

This causes many players (not accusing you specifically. Yet) to treat the XP system as another grind. This would in turn cause some players to ask why then they can't grind for the same XP in another part of the game

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

On that, I propose that I see merit if standing is associated with skill measurement. I think we agree that kind of system shouldn't be farmed, period. The issue is, Conclave standing isn't skill measurement. So that foundation, while it could apply everywhere (though it doesn't!), doesn't apply to Conclave. At the same time, I propose that it could be based on alternate accomplishments. Time spent in something, for example. But that doesn't work terribly well because we have various ways to bypass that principle in PvE - using systems (like trading) that are pretty common across other games. So that doesn't seem to be the underlying reason - or at least there's more to it to say why PvP is a special case.

Here we wholeheartedly disagree. The XP system Conclave uses may not be measuring skill per se, but it is still measuring accomplishments. Lemme just confirm this on the Wiki real fast... Each and every point of Conclave standing came from a kill, from a capture, from a weekly achievement, from SOMEthing you demonstrated in a battle against other players.

I feel your argument is based entirely on tearing Conclave down, far beyond the point the demerits you speak of reflect reality

[Sevek7]

5 hours ago, VoidArkhangel said:

Competitive means there is some form of competition wich means that two or more sides fight to win something that cannot be shared (there cannot be two N°1 prize) so if one side win the other(s) lose. Tell me, where on the Conclave you see an actual loss?

At the end of a Conclave match, the screen shows "Match Lost" if you lose. So that's where you see it. 

But wait... Are you saying that there cannot be competition without explicit rewards? By that definition games like Unreal Tournament, Quake 3 Arena, Counter Strike, and all the other PvP shooters that helped defined the genre are non-competitive. 

Perhaps you are simply using a different (wrong) definition of the word "competitive." You certainly aren't using the one from the dictionary. 

[Sevek7]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Zweimander said:

Nah, that was just a bonus. We did it because it was the only realistic way of getting the skins we wanted with the remaining few and very good conclave players who still existed. Not that they don't still exist but their is less people playing it then when I played a few years back even but I could care less now tbh. You do what you must to get what you want and that is why I never minded people leeching from me and my skill in most the PvE endurance run wise. An eye for an eye as I saw it and so long as they remained alive I would carry them. Not sure about you but My behavior towards people leeching should of made me a good guy not "Toxic". To each their own though XD.

Huh? You're saying "I'm nice to PvP leechers but super toxic to Conclave players. Therefore I'm not toxic." 

That's... not how it works. 

Sure would be funny for a bank robber to try that defense in court one day though. "Sure I robbed a few banks, but there were other banks that I didn't rob, so I can't be a bank robber!"

 

[Laveillon]

13 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I'm reading your argument as "Nobody else cares about Conclave, so let me break this principle to get a thing I want."

Being this fixated about your principle, while ignoring my whole reply to your post. Surely it would make sense to continue this meaningless conversation with you.

People debating should be willing to admit their wrong, i told you earlier if you can convince me to rethink my ways, with evidence as fact, i don't see why i should object. With the way you phrased your sentence, i could easily turn it back to you; "Every game dev should abide this sacred principle, no one shall dare make exceptions!"

See? That also looks way too foolish. Now, will you please address properly my reply? Or shall i take you've given up on discussing your claim on the end of the debate?

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Laveillon said:

See? That also looks way too foolish. Now, will you please address properly my reply? Or shall i take you've given up on discussing your claim on the end of the debate?

I don't take your reply seriously. I feel you have completely failed to give any reason, to either me or DE, why Universal Medallions should apply to Conclave. You then simply repeated your arguments, which I considered a failure the first time, which in my mind comes across as either whining or entitlement depending on context

All Conclave standing is the result of doing something in PvP. Capturing flags, fragging other players, kill assists, some form of performance in a PvP environment. I simply do not see why killing Demolysts in PvE would ever be an acceptable alternative

[Tyreaus]

13 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Here we wholeheartedly disagree. The XP system Conclave uses may not be measuring skill per se, but it is still measuring accomplishments. Lemme just confirm this on the Wiki real fast... Each and every point of Conclave standing came from a kill, from a capture, from a weekly achievement, from SOMEthing you demonstrated in a battle against other players.

Except this isn't actually the case: if a player plays a Conclave game and does nothing - no kills, no captures, no achievements - they get ~150-200 standing for just being there. It's a "match completion bonus", I believe. Paltry, of course, but importantly, non-zero.

As I said before, it's entirely possible to farm Conclave without demonstrating a modicum of skill in the mode. An arduous test of patience, of course, but possible.

That means the "you can't get PvP standing in PvE" principle can't both be founded on "PvP requires skill" and apply to Conclave. At least as-is.

EDIT: It does measure accomplishment in terms of time spent, at least as a minimum. But as I've pointed out before, if that's grounds for restricting rewards to related content, then trading and universal medallions are both on the same chopping block. Those do the same "working around related content", just in a PvE context. So, to be consistent, we'd either need to abolish those or find some way PvP is exceptional so that it can't be worked around, but PvE content can.

And to quote what I said before on if that principle doesn't apply:

17 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

what we do from that lack of applicability depends on what we want to do. We can discard the principle or adjust the design so that the principle applies properly.

 

13 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I feel your argument is based entirely on tearing Conclave down, far beyond the point the demerits you speak of reflect reality

Your feelings are misplaced. My argument is an analysis and critique of your principle - full-stop. I do not want to tear Conclave down. I do not hold spite toward Conclave. I've agreed with Kontrollo multiple times throughout this thread and forum, and I'm quite sure they lack spite toward Conclave. I don't know how else to emphasize that idea.

[Stormdragon]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

we'd either need to abolish those or find some way PvP is exceptional so that it can't be worked around, but PvE content can.

I'm of the idea that universal medallions as a whole were a mistake since these could allow players to entirely bypass certain content added by the devs.

However, there is an important difference between PvE and PvP you seem to be skipping and it's how PvE can be done entirely solo, while PvP requires *at least* 1 more player to start a match. We have enough issues from a small playerbase being split across 48 discrete player pools (6 regions × 4 modes × 2 "tiers") to top it off with ways to bypass the content and reduce player count even further.

Granted, Universal Medallions are currently really rare and low value, so using them in PvP could make an additional push for certain players who want the cosmetics asap, which would be a good thing; however, let's not forget that DE can also increase their value, reduce rarity (or both) at any time if they wanted.

Another thing most people seem to miss is how rewards are purely cosmetics that bear no impact in gameplay, which makes them obviously intended to have no value beyond "bragging rights"; DE failing to make their acquisition in a way that actually gives them such value and not fixing methods used by players to exploit their way to them or even get them almost passively with enough patience -which seems to be the basis of your point- is an entirely different issue.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Your feelings are misplaced. My argument is an analysis and critique of your principle - full-stop. I do not want to tear Conclave down. I do not hold spite toward Conclave. I've agreed with Kontrollo multiple times throughout this thread and forum, and I'm quite sure they lack spite toward Conclave. I don't know how else to emphasize that idea.

It might not be your intention, but it is your method. I mean just look at your own words:

2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Except this isn't actually the case: if a player plays a Conclave game and does nothing - no kills, no captures, no achievements - they get ~150-200 standing for just being there. It's a "match completion bonus", I believe. Paltry, of course, but importantly, non-zero.

As I said before, it's entirely possible to farm Conclave without demonstrating a modicum of skill in the mode. An arduous test of patience, of course, but possible.

In this case it isn't out of malice, but it does still require assigning demerits to Conclave ("You can afk in Conclave for free XP") rather than comparing merits against other merits (or demerits against demerits, i.e. "you can idle in Conclave for free XP" vs "you can idle in public Disruption for free Universal Medallions")