Honest question - What's the game design point of making new frames in the current state of the game (other than monetary reasons)

[SneakyErvin]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

Even worse is having, 2 Warframes with literally identical themes. If anything those places should be filled by frames that change the game in general or are unorthodox...

Yes because apparently Hydroid uses the K-Drive system alot in his kit aswell, which also promotes the use of a secondary weapon in conjunction with this. The fact Yareli has a gamestyle centered around K-Drives kinda fills the whole unorthodox thing, kinda more so than both Nidus and Gauss. Her being a highly active frame that promotes constant movement distinctly makes her the opposite of what Hydroid is, a frame that can be played very passively in a single spot. They pretty much share water as a theme, that is it.

Saying the two are the same is more silly than those who said Khora was a Nidus or Harrow clone just because she could round mobs up and used chains in her animations.

2 hours ago, Kainosh said:

You are wrong.  New frames are just a tiny, very little part of Content updates.  And the "thing" that makes DE successful is their frequent updates and cooperation with community.

Even if they stop releasing new frames, as long as Quests, bosses and missions keep coming, its going to be good.  

So I agree with OP. There is a large amount of frames that can cover any role already.......And new players will most likely buy Trinity instead of Yareli... Coz old frames are much more stable in their roles.   There is not much point to add new ones....  They are like awkward "variants" of existing frames....there are no new roles added to the teamwork...and gameplay doesn't expand with more frames...

The frames bring replay value and experimentation even if some are same-ish. There is always the potential that a new frame fits better with the playstyle of a player than an old one, that doesnt mean it applies to all players with every new frame, but it does to some depending on the frame. That gives reason to adding new ones.

I've found new favorites in newer frames, those frames have now replaced the old ones I played mostly. Lavos has taken over the tanky meatshield role from Grendel who took over the role from Hildryn, who took over the role from Inaros who in turn took it over from Valkyr. Lavos also brings an AoE punch when needed. Protea has pretty much taken over the AoE wipe and defense role in my roster, replacing Saryn, Ember, Vauban and Frost in most cases.

 

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

6 hours ago, Quimoth said:

He specifically asked for non-monetary arguments...

Unfortunately, you can't separate out monetary reasons.   Without the need to constantly design new frames to fuel prime access, it's very likely we'd have far fewer warframes to choose from.  But bravo for the sarcastic handclap emoji, you must feel much better about yourself now.

[TARINunit9]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

 modular frames (which is what I hope the new Bash Lab will be used for), 

This is almost certainly a "big no, not under the current management." First of all, look how long they have spent dragging their heels on modular Archwing. Now multiply that with how management sees Warframes as player characters in and of themselves (they aren't just meat puppets: the Mirage Prime trailer shows that Excal Umbra was not a one-time deal). Xaku was probably the closest you will ever get, at least as long as Scott and Steve are still heading the teams

[Kainosh]

4 hours ago, (PSN)kadeliza740 said:

The Simple thing is that we are a consumerist society, always looking for the 'new and exotic' as opposed to fixing what is serviceable but old

Dunno about that....Major frame reworks are pretty pop.  Some even rebuy revisited frame to try it again...so it even brings moolah.

There are things that can feel new when fixed, even if they are old.  Coz we have lots of outdated stuff tbh. 

To me it looks like stuff doesn't have to be completely new.  It must be properly done/fixed to get that "consumerism" going.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The frames bring replay value and experimentation even if some are same-ish.

Same goes for Properly done enemies or game modes.

I look at it like this:

1 new frame gives you a new look on ~ 20 old mission types.  If frame is "same-ish", its role is pretty obvious and there is not much experimentation really.

1 new mission type gives you a new look on ~ 46 old frames, each with plenty of different loadouts.   Most players don't have all frames in their arsenal...so if said mission is rather hard to do with Player's current arsenal, they start seeking for something better from what is available.  They start playing and upgrading.

 

IMO, Game itself is much more important than playable characters.  Its no good when there are 300 Warframes to play same old Defense that only needs some aoe guns to do....I hope you got the point. 

[Tesseract7777]

Because this game is called Warframe. 

They will not stop, nor should they ever stop, making warframes, as long as the game lives on. 

Now, could they slow down a tad? Might not be bad for the game... 

But to keep interest you keep making new things. And it is quite literally the name of the game. 

[(PSN)kadeliza740]

1 hour ago, Kainosh said:

Dunno about that....Major frame reworks are pretty pop.  Some even rebuy revisited frame to try it again...so it even brings moolah.

There are things that can feel new when fixed, even if they are old.  Coz we have lots of outdated stuff tbh. 

To me it looks like stuff doesn't have to be completely new.  It must be properly done/fixed to get that "consumerism" going.

 

Of course, we are both 'right' in that 'new' and 'nearly new/reworked' do bring in people, both take time and effort but the new doesn't have any adherents to what it is whereas the reworked has those who like it before and those who like it after, thus can drive some people away whilst bringing in others ala the 'melee nerf' etc.

"New" is simply less likely to drive some away, thus is probably more 'cost effective' to concentrate on that even though it leads to older content needing more TLC  to stay relevant.

 

I most certainly think DE SHOULD be going 50/50 on new and rework the old, instead of the almost 75/25 or so they are. I just think the money doods in charge have a blinker on what they desire and mostly just ignore anything outside of it. Money doods don't play nice with creative types, AT ALL.🤕

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

There is none.

[LarenaBot]

It's fun to make them

[MacKenzie-Prime]

Even when frames are similar in archetype/theme, I find there's enough difference in actual gameplay with them to make the variations interresting. For example, i've seen players say Protea is a female vauban. While they have certain themes in common (placing down turrets/gizmos), their gameplay is vastly different. I find Protea to be more "on the go" where Vauban feels more like a "defend this area" type of frame.

If anything, my one wish would be with more and more frames released, we can get more loadout slots.  I'd love to have each frame have it's own loadout slot, with a few extra slots for additional configs/setups on two or three of our favorite frames.  Right now I've got 3 loadouts for Gara, a "mix-n-match" loadout for ranking up stuff/trying out new combos, a loadout for eidolons, index, and PT, and then the rest are for frames setup to run missions with an optimal setup... Protea and Titania for example I tend to use for rescue/speed run type missions, Ivara's for hunting/fishing/spy, a loki loaded out for spy, ect... basically a loadout for each frame to do a specific mission type in an optimal fashion for my playstyle with them... and yeah, I love having variety even though I do mostly play my gara.

[(XBOX)NuclearSquiddy]

Well looks like I started a war. I just want to make some clarifications.

For starters, I acknowledge that Yareli and Hydroid are vastly different utility-wise yet they are basically the same concept-wise (Water/Pirate, Water/Bandit). More comparisons can be made, like how Sevagoth and Nekros or Vauban and Protea. The concept and utility arguments are very different however and I may not have made that clear enough. 

Secondly, what I was inferring is that many frames may have some niche additions, but ultimately they boil down to the same purposes and abilities. I very well agre that new frames worthy of existing have been made (I provided examples like Nidus or Gauss whereas newer ones may be Xaku or whatnot)

Another thing to note was that the Bash  Lab speculation was mere blind hope rather than serious thought, and I'v played this game long enough to know where it'll probably end up.

I should also point out that I did not dismiss DE's attempts to rework and polish the game, I merely suggested that they should direct more resources to pre-existing effort and starting new ones.

To finish, most of the arguments made have been monetary although many have pointed out my exclusion of similar reasons, which gives me what I needed to draw somewhat of a conclusion that for mere game design, new frames aren't really worth a spot anymore, based on simple game design theory. But I thank all of your participation regardless.

[kgabor]

It makes people come back like at least every year or half-year to farm them for variety and clinging to hopes that the game might change, thus the game maintains some of its old players and its hardcore player base with it and doesn't decline as soon as it would without this type of content.

Other than that, just monetary reasons.

[Corvid]

16 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is always the potential that a new frame fits better with the playstyle of a player than an old one,

This was my reaction to Gauss. I've always enjoyed frames that had a mix of mobility and defensive powers, but none of the ones I mained beforehand (Volt, Nezha and Zephyr, to be precise) really clicked for me like Gauss has.

It's why I'm totally fine with more frames coming out, even if it results in what some might see as an overinflated roster. For all I know, there's a player out there who has been waiting for Yareli's playstyle for years without knowing it.

[Soy77]

On 2021-07-02 at 6:09 PM, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

In my opinion, the amount of frames we have is starting to reach a limit. There are too many frames to pick, and most of them you'll only play for a few missions overall. Not to mention lots of frames literally do the same thing that countless others do, with basically similar abilities with 1 or 2 added quirks. The latest frame, Yareli, is just proof they really don't care if said frame already exists but in another form cough Hydroid. Rather than making carbon copies with a fresh coat of paint, they should focus on making new systems like helminth or modular frames (which is what I hope the new Bash Lab will be used for), reworking pre-existing Warframes to make them more unique and less boring, or just make radically different Warframes with crazy designs. I'm cool with 2 to 3 frames fitting the same niche, but if 10+ frames already exist solely for AoE damage bursts, or if 4 literally tank solely by high HP, what's the point anymore. Even worse is having, 2 Warframes with literally identical themes. If anything those places should be filled by frames that change the game in general or are unorthodox like Nidus or Gauss. Sure I get it's hard to make each frame radically different, but now I think they should divert their attention elsewhere. Maybe I'm wrong, that's why I want to here your suggestions. I'm genuinely fixed on this topic.

Because warframe is not a triple A game. 

Fighting game -street fighter, mortal kombat, etc. might have enough character for a release, and the number won't increase aside from dlc characters. And they'll only release new characters on the sequels.

But warframe is f2p. They will keep making new characters so people can keep buying them. Don't look at triple A games to find the answer, look at f2p mobile games where they have new heroes every week. Final fantasy brave exius have godam ariana grande as a character. ARIANA FRIGGIN GRANDE. as a final fantasy character. Let that sink in for a bit.

The fact that you thought the number of "characters" in this game have a limit, is just a misunderstanding in the first place. We will keep having new warframes, and it's not even a monetary reason, that's just the genre of the game.

Forza have predetermined set of cars (outside of dlc), and CSR will have new car every week until the end of time. They just belong in two different genres. warframe belong in the second one.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2021-07-02 at 7:09 AM, (XBOX)NuclearSquiddy said:

In my opinion, the amount of frames we have is starting to reach a limit. There are too many frames to pick, and most of them you'll only play for a few missions overall. Not to mention lots of frames literally do the same thing that countless others do, with basically similar abilities with 1 or 2 added quirks. The latest frame, Yareli, is just proof they really don't care if said frame already exists but in another form cough Hydroid. Rather than making carbon copies with a fresh coat of paint, they should focus on making new systems like helminth or modular frames (which is what I hope the new Bash Lab will be used for), reworking pre-existing Warframes to make them more unique and less boring, or just make radically different Warframes with crazy designs. I'm cool with 2 to 3 frames fitting the same niche, but if 10+ frames already exist solely for AoE damage bursts, or if 4 literally tank solely by high HP, what's the point anymore. Even worse is having, 2 Warframes with literally identical themes. If anything those places should be filled by frames that change the game in general or are unorthodox like Nidus or Gauss. Sure I get it's hard to make each frame radically different, but now I think they should divert their attention elsewhere. Maybe I'm wrong, that's why I want to here your suggestions. I'm genuinely fixed on this topic.

This is about quality, not quantity.  I’ll take 100 more quality frames.

And your post’s title answers your question.

New frames, weapons, and cosmetics drive usage numbers and revenues.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Same goes for Properly done enemies or game modes.

I look at it like this:

1 new frame gives you a new look on ~ 20 old mission types.  If frame is "same-ish", its role is pretty obvious and there is not much experimentation really.

1 new mission type gives you a new look on ~ 46 old frames, each with plenty of different loadouts.   Most players don't have all frames in their arsenal...so if said mission is rather hard to do with Player's current arsenal, they start seeking for something better from what is available.  They start playing and upgrading.

 

IMO, Game itself is much more important than playable characters.  Its no good when there are 300 Warframes to play same old Defense that only needs some aoe guns to do....I hope you got the point. 

But that means you are under the assumption that the people working at DE are all Da-Vinci people that can do and does everything. That isnt the case, different departments do different things, removing the work from one wont magically increase the rate at which the other develops theirs.

And there is lots of experimentation to find out what works best for that frame to perform whatever task it is you want it to do. Just look at Gara, Frost and Limbo, 3 frames that fill the defense role in nearly the same way. They are all modded very differently to achieve that, and two of them can be built for very offensive gameplay aswell in non-defense based mission types. Just as Protea, Saryn and Ember can wipe out maps, they all do it in very different ways with different modding needed. Helminth added a further layer for experimentation, since we can now nearly "perfect" our kits.

3 hours ago, Corvid said:

This was my reaction to Gauss. I've always enjoyed frames that had a mix of mobility and defensive powers, but none of the ones I mained beforehand (Volt, Nezha and Zephyr, to be precise) really clicked for me like Gauss has.

It's why I'm totally fine with more frames coming out, even if it results in what some might see as an overinflated roster. For all I know, there's a player out there who has been waiting for Yareli's playstyle for years without knowing it.

Exactly! 

There are plenty of new frames that have clicked with me aswell. Most of them have also brought me nostalgia from other games. Rev became a big favorite due to his mesmer skin feeling like playing with blade turn in DaoC, Hildryn using her shields instead of energy brought back fond Carnage memories from Marvel Heroes, then Protea just spoke to the gadget loving engineering me inside and Lavos just became the type of tank I've been looking for, one without an overly bloated defense focused kit.

And now with Yaerli, even though I doubt I'll play her, she still brings a skill I'm interested in using. And hopefully someone will really love her playstyle. Come to think of it, with Helminth more frame releases are even more important since now even a single skill can complete someones playstyle needs on a specific frame.

 

[Kainosh]

44 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt the case, different departments do different things, removing the work from one wont magically increase the rate at which the other develops theirs.

Funds. Salaries. They split em between departments.

If one department gets less funds/people, another one gets more of that juice.   Imo, warframe development department gets too much, while Level design and Enemy development teams clearly lack either funds or proper staff (apart from visual designers...these kinda do their thing alright).    As a result we get maps like new Corpus Defense and copypasted, reskinned enemies with bad AI and awkward pathing that barely allows them to move around.

[SneakyErvin]

27 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

Funds. Salaries. They split em between departments.

If one department gets less funds/people, another one gets more of that juice.   Imo, warframe development department gets too much, while Level design and Enemy development teams clearly lack either funds or proper staff (apart from visual designers...these kinda do their thing alright).    As a result we get maps like new Corpus Defense and copypasted, reskinned enemies with bad AI and awkward pathing that barely allows them to move around.

And without the frames and weapons for instance they'd earn less revenue since missions brings zero potential for that. That would be reduced further if they hired or moved more people to work on missions, since expenses would be higher but none of that content would earn them anything. And each frame made has the potrential to be used twice for revenue, with only a new skin and altered stats for the prime. No new frames, no more future primes, which means no more prime access.

And the corpus tile can be argued. It is a fantastic arbitration defense map, it is poor for normal/fissure missions and steel path (who freely runs SP defense though?). And in normal/fissures you can always enox or saryn it with few bumps. It also serves as an amazing Interception map. 

[Kainosh]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And without the frames and weapons for instance they'd earn less revenue since missions brings zero potential for that. That would be reduced further if they hired or moved more people to work on missions, since expenses would be higher but none of that content would earn them anything.

You underestimate core improvements.   Its important to improve the game and add new mechanics and environments, enemies and combat systems and such.  Because without these you cant build "new and desired" frames and weapons.

Look at Yareli for example, it would not be possible if DE didn't invest in K-Drives back then.  But "themes" and "mechanics" are running low.  What will they even use to make next frame? Weapon?  There is a limit......They already use not so pop k-drives to make a frame. 

Game must expand...And not with cheap things.  To allow for even more "frame cash grab milking" DE must add more mechanics and better things to the game itself. Because this is needed to make sellable, interesting frames.

[SneakyErvin]

27 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

You underestimate core improvements.   Its important to improve the game and add new mechanics and environments, enemies and combat systems and such.  Because without these you cant build "new and desired" frames and weapons.

Look at Yareli for example, it would not be possible if DE didn't invest in K-Drives back then.  But "themes" and "mechanics" are running low.  What will they even use to make next frame? Weapon?  There is a limit......They already use not so pop k-drives to make a frame. 

Game must expand...And not with cheap things.  To allow for even more "frame cash grab milking" DE must add more mechanics and better things to the game itself. Because this is needed to make sellable, interesting frames.

And you ignore that different departments do different things, they arent interchangable. Lets say department A and B work together and C and D works together aswell, A and B does their stuff with no back logs while C and D have back log issues, most notably D not being able to keep up with C since D is more of an intricate job. It would not help to shut down A and B and shift them to C and D, since that would mean more work being done by C further clogging it up for D even if both get help.

I know you'll say that they can place all of AB at D to help clear back logs, but that isnt how it works since the people working for the company cannot do everything within the project, they have their different departments for that reason.

And Yareli would have still been possible, it would just be her number 2 skill and possibly passive that wouldnt be what they are. Which likely wouldnt be a negative thing for most players seeing how unpopular k-driving is already. There are plenty of themes to go around to make more frames, from mythology, history and sci-fi without needing new systems etc. Mechanics may be running low, but why do we need new and more mechanics, why reinvent the wheel?

[Kainosh]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

 It would not help to shut down A and B and shift them to C and D, since that would mean more work being done by C further clogging it up for D even if both get help.

Shift? I never said shift.

Its doable by either improving (training) or adding personnel to the lacking department.  A and B might (and probably will) get some sort of trim here and there as a result.

That's basic company management and must be done by HR department...if DE have such a thing.   Having D limping like that is not normal.

[RussianStallion]

I Agree with the author,

1) strech the imagination on existing frames alot of them left behind 

2) make existing augments rework to some of them actually work (like Atlas 1 rumbler augment 4example)

3) add new game mods to make every warframe unique at specific mod 

4) many ideas... 

finally so much work on this direction you dont even need to invent new frames ever because going on that direction makes the game lose hes briliancy and turn to pokemon or something ^^

" 

[NocheLuz]

9 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Game must expand...And not with cheap things.  To allow for even more "frame cash grab milking" DE must add more mechanics and better things to the game itself. Because this is needed to make sellable, interesting frames.

This might sound stupid, but there are people who wait for new Frames and would PAY MONEY to get them. I have asked some of them once (since I'm mostly F2P). They told me that they love this game and would like to support it. But since they buy almost everything and/or get almost everything in the game already, they would buy that new Frame instead of playing quests and farming for one.

TBH, in my opinion as F2P player, I'm looking forward to new stuff more than fixing the old one. Some of the old ones already great in my opinion, this makes it hard to fixing it because someone might enjoy playing it as it is now.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I like having variety.

I like different themes.

I like different combinations of abilities.

I like different passives.

I like different ways to accomplish the same tasks.

I like different modding priorities (because even similar abilities may be based on different stats, which allows you to focus on different strengths, perhaps, because you can treat one stat as a "dump stat" on one frame, where it would cripple the other, while making the desired ability better.)

Plus, there are plenty of themes and combinations of abilities, and niches left to fill (just based on lore alone, before you even consider the wealth of possibilities brought forth by the community in the fan concepts subsection of the forum.)

[OvenCakePrime]

If i had my way I would want them to focus on adding and refining the lore, stuff like The Second Dream and The Sacrifice are amazing and I really want more of it. Warframe has so much lore potential and if they capitalize on it, it's a win for everyone. 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

9 minutes ago, OvenCakePrime said:

If i had my way I would want them to focus on adding and refining the lore, stuff like The Second Dream and The Sacrifice are amazing and I really want more of it. Warframe has so much lore potential and if they capitalize on it, it's a win for everyone. 

Reality is that the metrics, both in terms of Revenues AND Costs, dictate much of the game’s path.

I want more lore, more story, more cohesive backstory, more cinematic quality…Second Dream taken to new heights with true story.

Alas, as much as we want it, it needs to make money for the cost, and we seemingly aren’t willing to directly pay for it.