Deconstructor Melee Modding Changes (Sisters of Parvos)

[Skaleek]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Because independently moddable exalted weapons suck. The only thing keeping those frames' abilities relevant is their access to scaling that's unavailable to Exalted Weapons. When's the last time you saw Monke use his stick?

Adding default melee weapons like Garuda's Talons would be cool, and so would having stat-sticks appropriately removed. But I'm not interested in paying energy over time for a whip, if I wanted to use a whip I'd be using a whip.

*Some* exalted weapons suck. Some don't. I think the normalization of exalted powers is probably a healthy change. Rivens affecting warframe powers is dangerous territory in my opinion. DE's neglect of iron staff is a totally separate issue.

[GenerikIntrovert]

I guess people will finally stop complaining about sentinels survivability. After all don't have to worry about sentinels surviving if you never bring them into missions in the first place. with these changes its going to make sentinels even more niche than they already are. only reasons I can think to bring out sentinels is if there are new things to scan or you are going fishing and are too lazy to throw out the highlighting dye. I hope the new Robot dogs are good, because if not there will be no reason to use anything except for immortal infested cats or loot cat.

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, BunnyHunny94 said:

How is this unhealthy for the game?

It is not healthy to house a system where the maximum performance of Khora (or similar abilities) is based on the augments of a weapon (like Jaw Sword), the inherent mechanics of a weapon (like Xoris) and the randomized stats of a random Riven Mod (like Amphis). This problem is compounded by the fact these weapon builds will be entirely designed around the ability and the weapon itself is improperly modded for combat on its own.

2 hours ago, BunnyHunny94 said:

How would this make anything better? Do you have a better suggestion, than what we currently have?

With toggle abilities that are actual exalted weapons, it is something different. You turn them on and you use them exclusively until you choose to turn them back off.

The abilities we are talking about in the context of stat sticks, are different. You press the button once to perform one slap and thats it.

How would it work if you get what you want?
Should they share a combo counter with your melee weapon albeit being modded separately? How would that work, just use the melee as combo duration and combo gain stat stick and make it completely useless to get the max from the ability?
Should they have their own combo counter, separate from your melee weapon? That would likely suck in regards to managing combo durations.
Should they not scale with combo at all? Then how would they scale?

It's quite simple. You mod Whipclaw, Vaporize, Shattered Lash, Landslide, etc. separately from your melee in the Arsenal, and sustaining those skills requires using said skills for combo. This change also indirectly buffs Naramon Focus to be more compelling for melee focused Warframes and encourages a bit more diversity in Focus choices. You can also open up modding choices by allowing Smite mods for example. This will offset the initial nerf of losing massive multipliers from Riven Mods.

Stat sticks are bad for Warframe and the reliance on them needs to be acknowledged and put down. Every day this is not addressed, more player Platinum, time, and resources are dumped into a flawed mechanic. This problem has been entirely preventable for years now and continuously ignoring it is making things worse. If DE plans on tackling these long standing interactions within the game to improve the health of combat, they need to do them all at once with the same goal across the board.

Cherry-picking surface-level issues with bandaid solutions instead of attacking core problems has caused this game to be full of inconsistencies and issues that span close to a decade now.

[Shad0W1nG]

Now THATS the deal breaker for me. I was expecting to keep having crits with gladiator mods. Now they're gone now.

Melee IS fun to me, if I can't have the only thing that I enjoy in this game, then I'm outta here.

Not gonna stay if I can't just have fun. I play games for fun and relax, not challenges.

WHY CAN'T I JUST HAVE SOME NICE CRITS GOD DAMMIT.

Also, Helios is useless with out gladiators, maybe you guys wanna fix it and make it useful?

As all of the useless weapons? Fix them. Make them good instead of nerfing melee to make things "BALANCE".

Bad guns and bad melees, is that what you what to deliver?

Why not good guns and good melee?

There's no competition in this game, leave us some power fantasy god dammit.

[PublikDomain]

2 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

*Some* exalted weapons suck. Some don't. I think the normalization of exalted powers is probably a healthy change. Rivens affecting warframe powers is dangerous territory in my opinion. DE's neglect of iron staff is a totally separate issue.

Most suck and DE's had more than enough time and feedback to make them not suck. But they haven't. And Rivens affecting power is dangerous, sure, but also a totally separate idea from taking away an ability I already like to replace it with one I won't. I'm more than happy with Whipclaw functioning the way it does and not sucking. If you want to use a whip on Khora, just use a whip. It'll get you the same experience without costing you energy every second and without throwing away an ability other people like.

[Voltage]

4 minutes ago, Shad0W1nG said:

Now THATS the deal breaker for me. I was expecting to keep having crits with gladiator mods. Now they're gone now.

Melee IS fun to me, if I can't have the only thing that I enjoy in this game, then I'm outta here.

Not gonna stay if I can't just have fun. I play games for fun and relax, not challenges.

WHY CAN'T I JUST HAVE SOME NICE CRITS GOD DAMMIT.

Also, Helios is useless with out gladiators, maybe you guys wanna fix it and make it useful?

As all of the useless weapons? Fix them. Make them good instead of nerfing melee to make things "BALANCE".

Bad guns and bad melees, is that what you what to deliver?

Why not good guns and good melee?

There's no competition in this game, leave us some power fantasy god dammit.

This is entirely over-exaggerated. You don't need insane crits to slaughter enemies. 

Helios is not useless. He's the scanning Sentinel and has had a solid use-case since he was added.

Raising the power-ceiling makes the game more mindless and less about player choice. I can tell you are advocating for that, but it is negative for the game. 

Not every weapon can be good. Progression exists where weapons start out low and get better as you get higher level equipment.

Just because this isn't a competitive game doesn't mean it shouldn't reel in player balance to give a little more meaning to your arsenal choices.

You should be asking DE to approach this consistently instead of complaining that the game is less trivial (by a small amount by the way).

[Balegrim]

1 hour ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Hehe I know the feeling. 

I find it funny how people complain so hard about nerfs, when even after all the promised nerfs, there are so many ways to still reach the damage cap and make high level, SP buffed enemies trivial anyways. Much ado about nothing lol. 

I'm just gonna say the really unpopular thing. Wish DE would remove rivens. They are not necessary, absurdly disrupt game balance, and unhealthy for getting any kind of control over the game's power scaling. 

I know that won't happen because lulz platinum expenses and reimbursement would be a nightmare. But I think rivens were a mistake, even as a guy who has a couple nice ones. 

[Skaleek]

5 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Most suck and DE's had more than enough time and feedback to make them not suck. But they haven't. And Rivens affecting power is dangerous, sure, but also a totally separate idea from taking away an ability I already like to replace it with one I won't. I'm more than happy with Whipclaw functioning the way it does and not sucking. If you want to use a whip on Khora, just use a whip. It'll get you the same experience without costing you energy every second and without throwing away an ability other people like.

Honestly if they balanced whipclaw to not need rivens to be competitive, and then allowed you to bring your choice of melee to the mission i think that'd be a better scenario then dedicating a slot to make your 1 ability perform well. And no, whips aren't like whipclaw, because the range on whipclaw is longer than old scoliac.

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Helios is not useless. He's the scanning Sentinel and has had a solid use-case since he was added.

Sorry, but "It's not useless, you can equip it if you are too lazy to scan stuff (which is pointless to begin with)" doesn't cut it. Helios is a stat stick period. Take that away and you may as well remove Helios entirely.

And don't even argue that scanning stuff isn't pointless. Get a handfull of Heavy Gunners for the Simulacrum and you're done. And even then, by the time players can access the Simulacrum they probably scanned them by accident getting Simaris rep - which Helios also cannot do.

[Cyberkraken]

so set mods shouldnt work for mlee sentinel weapons but still work for rifle weapons... I just wish they stopped hiding the nerfing behind the excuses of "unintended interactions". Its happened with loads of frames, weapons and mods and i just want them to acknowledge that they are infact just nerfing good stuff so we have to spend 20 more hours forma ing the new meta setups.
They talk like they would start buffing the bad instead of nerfing the good but their actions and their words dont line up... ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR INTENTIONS and stop behaving like kids. If they feel like a nerf-hammer strat will work in this game when it usualy results in more trash experiences in EVERY OTHER GAME IN HISTORY that used that method then at least acknowledge it and say "we nerf stuff because we think its the bst thing to do" instead of being like "we reworked stuff so its more loke what we intended" 3 years after release. I swear it feels like they need to replace 75% of their  decisionmaking staff to have someone say "maybe if we just were transparent and honest with the players and listened to the hundreds of other game examples of how to do things right". I swear they used to know this stuff but at this point either they have grown moldy and rotten or some poisonus  part of the company has infected the entire main part of development.

[PublikDomain]

8 minutes ago, Voltage said:

It is not healthy to house a system where the maximum performance of Khora (or similar abilities) is based on the augments of a weapon (like Jaw Sword), the inherent mechanics of a weapon (like Xoris) and the randomized stats of a random Riven Mod (like Amphis). This problem is compounded by the fact these weapon builds will be entirely designed around the ability and the weapon itself is improperly modded for combat on its own.

Except augments and mechanics like the Xoris are/were less effective than using normal mods on normal weapons. The Syndicate augments are only useful on Gara, on Khora they're a DPS loss. Rivens are the only thing in that list that actually affects Whipclaw when it's being modded properly, and when you mod properly you end up with a melee weapon using a crit build just like any other melee weapon. PPP, Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Organ Shatter and Gladiator Might, Elemental mods, a Riven... These aren't bad mods that'll produce a bad build. The only difference is that you don't use CO or attack speed, and instead use more damage and a weapon that's already fast. You don't have to use a terrible weapon that won't scale with your build, and it's better if you don't. This is just user error. It's a good idea to remove stat-sticks if it's done right, but not for these reasons.

14 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Cherry-picking surface-level issues with bandaid solutions instead of root problems has caused this game to be full of inconsistencies and issues that span close to a decade now.

Isn't this is also a cherry-picked surface-level issue with a bandaid solution? The only reason these abilities need to scale with melee mods in the first place is because damage-dealing abilities suck when compared to the >100x multipliers weapons have access to. They don't scale and can't keep up and never have. And as long as weapons continue having access to 8-mod DPS builds with >6-digit damage outputs, plain old damage-dealing abilities will continue to suck. Messing with the few damage-dealing abilities that can actually scale and stay relevant isn't going to do anything to change this.

[Voltage]

1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

Sorry, but "It's not useless, you can equip it if you are too lazy to scan stuff (which is pointless to begin with)" doesn't cut it. Helios is a stat stick period. Take that away and you may as well remove Helios entirely.

And don't even argue that scanning stuff isn't pointless. Get a handfull of Heavy Gunners for the Simulacrum and you're done. And even then, by the time players can access the Simulacrum they probably scanned them by accident getting Simaris rep - which Helios also cannot do.

It's really not my problem that you don't participate in the Codex past "a handful heavy gunners". Helios provides a great utility for that completionist part of the game whether you like it or not. Helios and The Codex aren't catered towards the average player who puts minimal forma on a build to just  make the hurdle to the next mission.  You can't devalue a utility because you choose to ignore it. That's not a problem with Helios, it's a problem with your perspective on utility.

Every companion has a small niche offering. The problem with companions is the allowance for mechanics like Charm, not how Helios has a specific use-case for a specific kind of player. 

[Traumtulpe]

2 minutes ago, Cyberkraken said:

so set mods shouldnt work for mlee sentinel weapons but still work for rifle weapons... I just wish they stopped hiding the nerfing behind the excuses of "unintended interactions"

3 minutes ago, Cyberkraken said:

They talk like they would start buffing the bad instead of nerfing the good but their actions and their words dont line up

Isn't it kinda hilarious? It's always the same too, without exception.

"We will buff bad Helminth abilities" *Good Helminth abilities get nerfed, the bad stay useless*

"10% nerf melee, 90% buff guns" *Melee: -550% crit, -30% base damage, -Berserker. Guns: No change, but go farm new mods and arcanes that don't work on bosses*

You can't even call it lying anymore, rather doublespeak, I guess. Since we already know exactly what they really mean when they speak words that don't match reality.

[PublikDomain]

17 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Honestly if they balanced whipclaw to not need rivens to be competitive, and then allowed you to bring your choice of melee to the mission i think that'd be a better scenario then dedicating a slot to make your 1 ability perform well.

And they could, but Rivens aren't the only thing that affects Whipclaw. The Combo Counter's very existence is a 3.75x damage multiplier, and is much more impactful to your damage output than a Riven is. So you'd still need a melee weapon to get the best performance just like you do now and stat-sticks haven't gone anywhere.

The Combo Counter needs to be fully disconnected with the damage it currently provides baked in*, Combo Counter mods of all types need to be unequippable and have no effect, that damage needs to be baked in, and the ~2x damage you get from a Riven needs to be baked in as well. Then it could be separated without dumping its damage below existing melee weapons and soon guns.

17 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

And no, whips aren't like whipclaw, because the range on whipclaw is longer than old scoliac.

Well yeah, lol. That's one of the many reasons I don't want Whipclaw to be replaced with a whip. Whipclaw isn't a whip, it's more like a rocket or grenade launcher.

[(XBOX)L0RDPH03N1X95]

I agree with the others. If you're gonna fix an oversight you might as well go and fix the several other oversights and bugs that have been in game for longer. 

[Traumtulpe]

3 minutes ago, Voltage said:

It's really not my problem that you don't participate in the Codex past "a handful heavy gunners". Helios provides a great utility for that completionist part of the game

That is BS and you know it. Helios provides great value for completionists by existing, anything does. That is not what any sane person cares about, we consider relevance to gameplay, and Helios has none except as a stat stick.

He doesn't provide any more value than a set of colors, which may be a matter of life or death for people with OCD, but not objectively.

[(NSW)Master2873]

9 hours ago, (PSN)Seihoukeh_Dragon said:

Do you want us to only use charm, sahasa, and valpaphyla? No gladiator mods just makes helios and the new pets(unless they have something up their sleeve) nearly completely worthless. At least make all stat sticks go away if you do this.

Exactly what I said to my friends, and clanmates. When I was able to somehow hit a 7mill+ orange crit on a group of enemies in a 10m radius with Khora, with a crap stat stick build with hardly any counters from the gladiator set mods I put on the weapon itself, I saw a huge problem that makes current melee that they're nerfing a #*!%ing non-issue...

 

They're killing endgame damage, but enemies are still not being touched and are bullet sponges. They're also aimbots as well. When I'm running around with a 300%+ strength Volt with his 2, and enemies are still able to peg me with shots, is bullS#&$.

[Voltage]

14 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Except augments and mechanics like the Xoris are/were less effective than using normal mods on normal weapons. The Syndicate augments are only useful on Gara, on Khora they're a DPS loss. Rivens are the only thing in that list that actually affects Whipclaw when it's being modded properly, and when you mod properly you end up with a melee weapon using a crit build just like any other melee weapon. PPP, Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Organ Shatter and Gladiator Might, Elemental mods, a Riven... These aren't bad mods that'll produce a bad build. The only difference is that you don't use CO or attack speed, and instead use more damage and a weapon that's already fast. You don't have to use a terrible weapon that won't scale with your build, and it's better if you don't. This is just user error. It's a good idea to remove stat-sticks if it's done right, but not for these reasons.

My explanation encompassed the entire problem of ability stat sticks, not just Khora. That's why I brought up augments and weapon passives.

Likewise, a Khora melee is no where close to a normal build. You don't mod for Attack Speed, Smite Mods, Primed Reach, or Condition Overload. That's 4 core mods on a melee that you cannot mod for on Khora because they do not apply. A stat stick melee build is objectively suboptimal for its own use in a mission. Those builds are specifically to min-max an ability and that is undeniably unhealthy.

14 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Isn't this is also a cherry-picked surface-level issue with a bandaid solution? The only reason these abilities need to scale with melee mods in the first place is because damage-dealing abilities suck when compared to the >100x multipliers weapons have access to. They don't scale and can't keep up and never have. And as long as weapons continue having access to 8-mod DPS builds with >6-digit damage outputs, plain old damage-dealing abilities will continue to suck. Messing with the few damage-dealing abilities that can actually scale and stay relevant isn't going to do anything to change this.

I never advocated for not allowing abilities that deal damage to be modded. I'm only advocating for the removal of unrelated mods affecting abilities. Syndicate Augments and Riven Mods have no place affecting an ability. That's just common sense.

[Xyngrr]

First off - 

THANK YOU.
I am 100% in favour of this bugfix.

It heartens me to see you addressing bugs in any form, whether to my advantage or not.
In this case, it's the avenues in which melee power bug usage has become enshined as required.
Please continue in this vein and sort out the Vigilante mods on sentinel weapons crossboosting your weapon, as well as your equipped kitgun arcane crossboosting your sentinel weapon ( assuming the kitgun and sentinel weapon are of the same class ). The only thing crossboosting should be the set bonuses of sets specifically designed to do so ( Tek set, Synth set, etc. ) Once it's fully sorted out you can get a better idea of actual usage instead of getting stats distorted by a family of overpoweringly advantageous bugs and finally get to proper rebalancing.
This bugfix/change should have been announced earlier, but I can understand not mentioning it if it was a further step you weren't sure would be ready for patch drop. I'm glad it was ready though, and look forward to the day when this is fully propagated to all buggy interaction cases. Thanks for mentioning it before we discovered it cold in the patchnotes.

Again, Thank You. 

 

[Voltage]

5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

That is BS and you know it. Helios provides great value for completionists by existing, anything does. That is not what any sane person cares about, we consider relevance to gameplay, and Helios has none except as a stat stick.

He doesn't provide any more value than a set of colors, which may be a matter of life or death for people with OCD, but not objectively.

What I just explained is relevant to gameplay, maybe just not yours. Do I need to bring up detect vulnerability, or are you going to tell me it's not great because it's not Banshee's Sonar with quadruple damage on all enemies within 50 meters of the player.

Your take is essentially that something needs to add to the powercreep of the game to hold relevance. It's just plain wrong.

[Tyreaus]

9 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

There’s also some ‘invisible gear hopping’ where if you put Mods on your Deconstructor (or Prime), the carry over to your Melee which is a many-year-old oversight we’ve lived with, but are approaching changes more thoroughly with this Update and as a result we’re patching up this behaviour. 

Are there plans in the (perhaps near) future to address 'gear hopping' (or 'stat sticking') with other mods? For example, the Vigilante set mods on primary sentinel weapons. I don't personally mind that this 'gear hopping' might go extinct: it's a hard hit, but I'll find a way to work with it or around it. But it would be more of a bother if it wasn't consistent in that regard. Very much a "putting people on edge for an upcoming but never stated nerf" kind of situation.

If there are such plans, maybe it'd help to break out a more nuanced solution for the gear hopping problem. One that just disables set bonuses when equipped on sentinel weapons - since that appears to be the point of the change. Otherwise, it means we're not able to add a crit mod (Gladiator Might) purely because it has a set bonus tied to it - or multishot mods with Vigilante, and so on and so forth. That's just throwing the baby out with the bath water, right?

EDIT: And if you don't have that plan, uhh...it makes this change kind of weird. A half-baked idea at best, or a specifically targeted nerf toward melees at worst. I don't think that's a great look either way. So, well, I don't want the stat stick nerf, but if you're gonna do it...do it all?

[LordDoom01]

Given how long you've ignored this issue with Deconstructor, and the planned nerf to blood rush, this doesn't look like fixing an oversight. It looks more like you are nerfing melee to "buff" guns. In fact, I'm pretty sure that is why this one single oversight (for sentinels) is being fixed and many others are not. You have further pushed Sentinels into uselessness.

[Virmare]

Wow... another half-nerf... another band-aid that we put in order not to fix the real problems of the game like that 80% of the weapons don't work as they should, the more years I play your game the more I realize that I play at your META and not what I really want to play.

Can you take half a year to balance ALL the weapons?
I prefer half a year without content and a balance of everything (creating skins, I understand that you have to earn money)

I find it funny that you remove Nidus having to kill to get charges and thus not compete / other players bother you, to create a META where people enter a competition to kill and earn bonuses.

When you realize that people only use weapons with AOE damage, will you say that it was a mistake that needs to be "fixed"?

And what about being transparent? you put this patch note at the last minute... lol

Speaking of animations, we already know that now you want us to enjoy those animations, can we fix the animations of the warframes that have broken animations? For example Khora and his feet.

It is so difficult to understand that when the players take away a meta (BECAUSE OF NOT HAVING BALANCED ALL THE WEAPONS) they will decide to play meta number 2 and when you remove meta number 2 they will play with meta number 3.

Where was the nerf 10% melee and buff 90% primary and secondary? The only thing you have achieved is that the differences between good and bad weapons now have a bigger difference.

[LillyRaccune]

44 minutes ago, Voltage said:

He's the scanning Sentinel and has had a solid use-case since he was added.

I agree with most of your thoughts, but not this. DE invented the Botanist mod to make Oxylus relevant, many players believed Helios should have it instead. What you called "solid use" I prefer to call "one-and-done". Helios may make scanning easier, but "manual mode" works and Helios is non-functional in both Arch-Wing and Shark-Wing. Completionism might be more relevant if DE took lore more seriously. While "Lore" may count as content, character and item stats do not.

[Duality52]

9 hours ago, OkamiKage98 said:

another melee nerf? lets gooooooo why not jsut delete combocounter mods? xD io mean common... they are worthless now

9 hours ago, SephirothWS said:

With the continued nerfs heading for Melee, maybe its time to just remove Melee and its mechanics from the game and just require people to use guns in this looter shooter game.... Well played DE.

Right, losing around 10-30% of hundreds of thousands of damage will make Melee "worthless".