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Deconstructor Melee Modding Changes (Sisters of Parvos)


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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

I agree with most of your thoughts, but not this. DE invented the Botanist mod to make Oxylus relevant, many players believed Helios should have it instead. What you called "solid use" I prefer to call "one-and-done". Helios may make scanning easier, but "manual mode" works and Helios is non-functional in both Arch-Wing and Shark-Wing. Completionism might be more relevant if DE took lore more seriously. While "Lore" may count as content, character and item stats do not.

"One and done" is the entire game's reward structure. That's such a bad comparison.

Likewise, character and item stats are a form of content for some players in the same token that cosmetics and decorating are.

Botanist hardly devalued Helios as Helios still remains the scanning utility sentinel. Whether you want to capitalize on that utility is up to you and your account progress. However, he has a niche. Obviously a sentinel with a QoL utility isn't going to compete in general use with an RNG booster or flat crit chance, but the expectation should not be that Helios has to.

Edited by Voltage
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10 hours ago, ninjakivi2 said:

If set mods no longer work on melee companion weapons, can we get a fix to things like Vigilante Mod Set mods working on companion guns as well?

Trying to throw away my personal bias on the matter, what would the community gain from getting this removed

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1 hour ago, Balegrim said:

I'm just gonna say the really unpopular thing. Wish DE would remove rivens. They are not necessary, absurdly disrupt game balance, and unhealthy for getting any kind of control over the game's power scaling. 

I know that won't happen because lulz platinum expenses and reimbursement would be a nightmare. But I think rivens were a mistake, even as a guy who has a couple nice ones. 

Interesting opinion and point of view that I agree with in a few ways. It would most likely improve game balance, but I've grown rather attached to my funny purple rectangles that cost a lot of imaginary currency

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Voltage said:

Likewise, a Khora melee is no where close to a normal build. You don't mod for Attack Speed, Smite Mods, Primed Reach, or Condition Overload. That's 4 core mods on a melee that you cannot mod for on Khora because they do not apply. A stat stick melee build is objectively suboptimal for its own use in a mission. Those builds are specifically to min-max an ability and that is undeniably unhealthy.

Right, and instead you mod for damage, damage, damage, and more damage. It's sub-optimal, but it doesn't have to be bad unless you pick a poor weapon like the Jaw Sword. Pick a weapon that will scale with the mods you're using and it's fine. In return for your melee being "a nice and reliable backup weapon" instead of "an overpowered meta blender", your Whipclaw in turn overshadows the meta melees you'd be using instead.

I don't really see this as a problem, since you're giving up power in one area for massive amount of power in another. SP is the only place where my melee starts to slow down a little, and that's fine because I rely on my Whipclaw anyways and it's still good to go. I'm not using some high Disposition weapon either, the Dual Keres are down to 1.1 at this point. I'm reaching Zaw territory where I can just build whatever weapon I want, and both Whipclaw and my stat-stick are still both fine. I've played at both ends of the Riven spectrum and the difference is large on paper but in practice not really that big of a deal. You don't need to use the Jaw Sword. Anyone using a weapon like the Jaw Sword or Syndicate augments on Khora is gonna have a bad time, because they're shooting themselves in their own feet.

But even then, nothing is preventing you from using Attack Speed, Smite Mods, Primed Reach, or Condition Overload. A balanced non-Riven build for Khora is 1.2M DPS. It's easy to replicate and anyone can do it. Primed Pressure Point, Blood Rush, Organ Shatter, Gladiator Might, Weeping Wounds, Primed Fever Strike, and 2x 90% Elementals, plus the external stuff like Deconstructor and Accumulating Whipclaw. You could swap Primed Pressure Point for Condition Overload, drop an elemental for Primed Reach, and drop Gladiator Might for Berserker... and still do 440k DPS with Whipclaw which is pretty much exactly the DPS of a non-Riven Kuva Bramma if you're getting direct hits. With a Riven, which I don't see why you'd leave out of a meta melee build, you can get back above 1M DPS. Even with 3 mods in the build that don't count towards Whipclaw my average 1.1 Disposition Riven would still make 1.04M DPS.

So a lot of these problems come down to either user error or a desire to have everything good at once. This isn't a good justification for changes, especially when those changes are just bandaids to address a surface-level symptom of the flawed modding system sitting underneath. It'd be good if this interaction were changed appropriately, but I don't think finding the appropriate steps to take is possible if you don't fully understand how the interactions work. For example:

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

I never advocated for not allowing abilities that deal damage to be modded. I'm only advocating for the removal of unrelated mods affecting abilities. Syndicate Augments and Riven Mods have no place affecting an ability. That's just common sense.

It's not that simple.

Let's say you make Whipclaw moddable, remove Rivens and Syndicate Augments, and still allow it to use BR/WW as it can now. Let's also say DE even buffs the base damage to match the power lost from Rivens. You'd still benefit massively from the Combo Counter, and still need a stat-stick to hold that Combo Counter. Now the best stat-stick uses a build centered around building up and holding the Combo Counter and not dealing damage at all. Stat sticks haven't gone away, you've just made it so the stat-stick build is completely worthless for combat - or in the worst case made the Venka Prime the only game in town if the damage from its extra Combo Counter levels is preserved.

Let's say that to prevent this the Combo Counter is fully disconnected and re-implemented like Landslide's combo counter, and that the Crit and Status from BR/WW are preserved through buffs to the ability's base stats. Now Whipclaw, Landslide, and Shattered Lash can deal the same damage as before, totally separate from your melee weapon and the Combo Counter. This is the only way to fully separate your stat-stick without nerfing these abilities into irrelevance. But this also means that now these frames get their incredibly powerful offensive abilities and the same meta melee weapons as everyone else. That's probably unhealthy as well.

If you don't account for everything, you just nerf these abilities below melee weapons and guns and they never get used again. If you do account for everything, you're by definition increasing these frames net power levels by a significant degree. It's a yucky situation and I'd much rather see it left well enough alone until the underlying problems making this kind of scaling a necessity in the first place are resolved.

Edited by PublikDomain
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4 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Botanist hardly devalued Helios as Helios still remains the scanning utility sentinel.

No disagreement. I didn't mean to suggest that.

6 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Whether you want to capitalize on that utility is up to you and your account progress.

That sounds a bit like a baited comment. But regarding account progress I want to ask, do you know what the "Rating" value means from the Mod Upgrade Console?

Spoiler

HU6YSo0.png?1

Anyway...

23 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Obviously a sentinel with a QoL utility isn't going to compete in general use with an RNG booster or flat crit chance, but the expectation should not be that Helios has to.

I'm just grouchy because Helios has "niche" QoL utility, which doesn't feel like it affects very much of my life at all. My only point was if Helios was able to use Botanist, it would have more utility. Players were also using Helios' Deconstructor as a stat stick which added to its utility. Now this patch is removing some of the utility.

I understand DE's reasoning, I'm not against that. Just mixed emotions. Neither do I want Helios to be equivalent to Adarza or Smeeta (which I find odd that you mentioned).

I hope that in the long run, these "nerfs" are just the beginning of bringing "balance to the force".

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1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Your take is essentially that something needs to add to the powercreep of the game to hold relevance. It's just plain wrong.

No, you intentionally strawman what I sad. Which was "Helios has no value to gameplay apart as a stat stick". Luckily my words are very easy to proof: Just wait for the next time DE shows us usage statistics for Sentinels, Helios will have near zero. Because he won't do anything that affects gameplay. Scanning may be a collector thing, but it sure has nothing to do with gameplay.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

FYI, all exalted weapons were stat-sticks prior to 2018. DE changed the weapons alone so they were something you can mod for. The logical expectation was for all statstick abilities to get that treatment. In my opinion, that change is long overdue.

Yep. Not sure why some weapons received their own separate modding capability for the weapon while other warframe abilities remained with the stat stick functionality. Not all warframe abilities that utilize stat sticks are considered exalted weapons however, wouldn't it be consistent if all the warframe abilities such as, whipclaw, landslide etc. that interacted similarly had the capability to be modded separately? Would make modding those weapons easier to understand. There are players that do not even realize some of their warframe abilities capability is measure by how their melee weapon is modded. For Excal and Wukong to name a few, its straight forward because there is a dedicated modding area for those weapons.

Edited by EdDiesel
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DE, same topic kinda. take a look at stat-stick mechanics aswell, its such a weird and out of place mechanic.
It would be better if exalted weapons and abilities that need them got an upgrade to reach the same result as with stat-sticks (at least let us mod the abilities that are affected by it if possible),  so the stat-stick mechanics itself could be removed for better and more consistent gameplay. 

Thank you for the updates, looking foward for the primary and secondary buffs.


Keep up the good work.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, (XBOX)HollowCube987 said:

Trying to throw away my personal bias on the matter, what would the community gain from getting this removed

Absolutely nothing - which is what you are about to become about the same amount from their equivalents getting removed from the melee versions.

Buuuuut if it's unintended design that has to go in the wastebin (for whatever reason), it only makes sense to include everything under said design - not just half of it.

Edited by Tyreaus
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Posted (edited)
vor 11 Stunden schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

Hi Tenno,

The Sisters of Parvos update will bring three new Modular Hound Companions, each with a unique Melee weapon. While reviewing these Companion Weapons, we noticed the Helios-old problem that there’s a lot of Melee Mods that you can equip, but don’t really function on companion Melee. There’s also some ‘invisible gear hopping’ where if you put Mods on your Deconstructor (or Prime), the carry over to your Melee which is a many-year-old oversight we’ve lived with, but are approaching changes more thoroughly with this Update and as a result we’re patching up this behaviour. 

These are mostly Mods that deal with combos or heavy attacks, since Companions do not have these features as well as other certain outliers. As a result the following Mods will be incompatible with the upcoming three Hound weapons and retroactively will no longer work with the Deconstructor and Deconstructor Prime:

  • Amalgam Organ Shatter
  • Corrupt Charge
  • Enduring Strike
  • Body Count
  • Blood Rush
  • Dispatch Overdrive
  • Drifting Contact
  • Energy Channel
  • Finishing Touch
  • Focus Energy
  • Focused Defense
  • Guardian Derision
  • Killing Blow
  • Life Strike
  • Maiming Strike
  • Parry
  • Quickening
  • Reflex Coil
  • Relentless Combination
  • Seismic Wave
  • True Punishment
  • Weeping Wounds
     

 

  • Gladiator Might
  • Gladiator Rush
  • Gladiator Vice
  • Carnis Mandible
  • Jugulus Barbs
  • Saxum Thorax
  • Motus Impact
  • Proton Snap
  • Tek Gravity
  • Strain Infection

Ok so... when vigilant mod set and that stuff removed from dethcube and friends? 

Just dont see an new way To go just another melee nerf...sad keep killing the fun and weapon diversity...

Cant we just agree to just buff primary and 2nd. And just let melee like it is please?

Edited by (PSN)Babobenni_
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17 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Buuuuut if it's unintended design that has to go in the wastebin (for whatever reason), it only makes sense to include everything under said design - not just half of it

I get your point of view now.

If set mods on melee mods are not supposed to apply their bonuses, then the same should apply to the primary and secondary set mods also.

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please disable the ?unintended? interactions of the every other robotic weapon equipping vigilante mods to help the primaries do next level of crits? 

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2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Raising the power-ceiling makes the game more mindless and less about player choice. I can tell you are advocating for that, but it is negative for the game.

This is the part I will always emphasize: DE and parts of the community painted themselves into a corner due to both DE and parts of the community themselves.

I understand that DE need to thrive on new content for both themselves and the playerbase, but there are several years-old problems that are still clinging to the game. Power creep is expected, and the community grew too attached to this due to the repetition of the grind. I understand that some parts of the grind should be changed (Harrow, Khora, Equinox, etc.) but that's a different topic.

The community would pursue popular or "meta" builds just to get the grind over with, while calling the grind a "chore" in the process. By the same token, "meta" builds are so stale that it also drains the fun away from the game's most important value: exploration. I keep seeing new players what the "best" things are along with asking for mainstream Melee mods.

Without looking up the Wiki, how many people would recognize what these are?

  • Battacor
  • Zymos
  • Cyanex
  • Supra (Vandal)
  • Ferrox

The list goes on, as people would likely compare these weapons they haven't obtained to the more popular weapons. That will likely kill off the new player's desire to try these new weapons and later trash them.

Frankly. I'm not sure if DE can come out of the corner, as any workshop even with some healthy changes (like this one) will result in some overwhelming backlash for taking away a fraction of their power. That type of reaction from the community is what will likely prevent any healthy changes in the future just for removing 10% of tens of thousands, or even millions of damage.

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11 hours ago, Tuturuu23 said:

now everyone will use the immortal cat as companion lmao nice diversifying usage of things lol

nah man they're gonna nerf that and make it so they can only revive once per mission. classic DE style.

What we really needed was a buff to sentinels so they aren't absolute dead weight, not a #*!%ing nerf to the one good one.

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Huh.

"Fixed" a long time "problem" with useless mods on Deconstructor, including the ones that coincidentally helps negate the upcoming melee nerf, but at the same time leaving the exact same kind of mods untouched on primaries and secondaries?

Curious.

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11 hours ago, (XBOX)The Neko Otaku said:

Huh never knew the mods carried over to other weapons. Also nice seeing people getting mad over something small again. 

This isn't something small you clown. This is a legitimate issue and a lot of weapons are going to suffer for it.

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On one hand, this was a bug and I’m glad it’s being fixed.

On the other hand, equipping Gladiator mods is one way we can mitigate the melee nerfs which are about to arrive, and putting those mods on your Sentinel is the most convenient way to use them. Removing this interaction right before these nerfs doesn’t feel good, especially since many of us are concerned that these melee nerfs will be a significant reduction in our quality of life.

It would be nice if we had a direct, intentional way to use your companion to enhance your attacks. Like, for example, a sentinel precept mod which gives your warframe’s melee weapon +60% critical chance and +20% critical chance per combo count. So it’s like True Steel and Blood Rush combined, but with half the strength, the mod goes on your sentinel, and only works as long as your sentinel is alive. I feel like that’s a reasonable balance of power and limitations. You could have similar mods for melee status chance, and for ranged critical and status chance. This would give us a way to tune our sentinels more closely to the frames they’re supporting, and make them more directly relevant in combat.

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11 hours ago, .durandle. said:

de makes nothing from the player trading of rivens
sure it might cause some people to buy new plat to buy the mods but that is far from certain and typically the stat stick rivens are reasonably cheap as they are for low disposition weapons to have a stronger effect

Wrong. The year rivens came out was the most profitable one DE had up til then. People pay a lot of money for the platinum to buy them. "People can just trade for platinum" Gee, I wonder where that platinum originated from? DE refuses to do anything that nerfs rivens specifically because they're getting S#&$loads of money from them. Now you know.

11 hours ago, JoJoshuee_DesK said:

Lol, read the OP again boi hahaha

This IS a melee nerf. Don't act like someone's mistaken something when you clearly don't understand what's going on yourself.

11 hours ago, (PSN)RuTweN said:

Again,you don’t understand the way the statstick frames are meant to be played.

Stastick frames are casters,if played right you don’t need to use any weapon.

It’s 3 warframes…is doesn’t affect the health of the game you have close to 50 to choose from…asking for changes on frames that you don’t understand on the other hand,is not healthy for the game

What is so difficult to understand about people wanting to have a functional melee weapon while also having good abilities? Isn't the gun buffing and melee butchering this update brings literally to make combat more diverse? If you like only doing 1 thing with your build then that's great, for you, but the rest of us want some diversity that doesn't require changing to an entirely different build. Your reasoning here is ridiculous and very elitist, please shut up.

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1 hour ago, LillyRaccune said:

But regarding account progress I want to ask, do you know what the "Rating" value means from the Mod Upgrade Console?

I think it's the total endo value of your mods?

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What about the vigilante mods on sentinel weapons working with primaries ? Oh right I forgot you don't play your game . I'm sorry if I sound negative (maybe because I kept hoping for a long while that stuff like this was gonna stop) , but this update is just a massive disappointment . The primaries aren't buffed , you need to grind for the primary "buffs" . Melees are still always gonna be used over primaries , all you accomplished was making melee less fun and a bigger gap between good and bad weapons . Yes I am aware you can do a lot of damage in game without red crits , and that you don't need em , but this is just a pointless nerf . The meta won't change and weapons like sybaris , hek , latron , vasto or whatever are still not gonna be used , because explosives exist . Oh wait I shouldn't have said that , they're gonna get nerfed too now . You didn't rebalance weapons you just made melee less fun .
Meta will most likely stay the same except for the fact that hammers will fall out of it . I know I sound really negative but I just can't be positive anymore after all the nerfs . Give Pablo the lead .

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, AziSlays said:

What is so difficult to understand about people wanting to have a functional melee weapon while also having good abilities? Isn't the gun buffing and melee butchering this update brings literally to make combat more diverse? If you like only doing 1 thing with your build then that's great, for you, but the rest of us want some diversity that doesn't require changing to an entirely different build. Your reasoning here is ridiculous and very elitist, please shut up.

Before i start, if your parents didn’t teach you maners please stop using the forum.

With that aside, again it’s 3 frames with abysal playrates that rely on those skills to get things done at the same rate as melee will be impacted by any change.

4 hours ago, AziSlays said:

If you like only doing 1 thing with your build then that's great, for you, but the rest of us want some diversity that doesn't require changing to an entirely different build. Your reasoning here is ridiculous and very elitist, please shut up.

What diversity are you talking about?

Spamming e is diversity,as i expained previously these warframes replace your melee with a skill.If you still don’t understand,you are asking for a stastick nerf in order to spam E instead of 1….that’s it.

All the warframes can use primary and secondary weapons…is that they cannot use the same combo(Co+Br+WW) like the rest of the weapons….that is diversity,you have it,you have 40 warframes to choose from that provide you that said diversity you want,but focus on these 3 that are special because they don’t fit your playstyle is just wrong.

 

4 hours ago, AziSlays said:

Your reasoning here is ridiculous and very elitist, please shut up.

Calling someone elitist in this situation is wrong on so many levels.My advice is to play the frames and understand their kit.

 

Lastly you’re using  the term diversity wrong.

Diversity = a range of different things

Example:

All warframes using melee weapons moded for CO+BR+WW - is not a diversity

Some warframes using obscure weapons built differently while the other warframes use the standard CO+BR+WW - diversity, and at the same time minority

 

Give atlas a shot and invest in him and you’ll be surprised that you don’t need melee weapons.

 

 

Edited by (PSN)RuTweN
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