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Deconstructor Melee Modding Changes (Sisters of Parvos)


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Oh yes - Please make the game less fun....

 

This change does not do anything good for the game. You should have dubbed down on this stuff to make it more consistent and useful.

 

RIP Sentinels - You only had one purpose after Years of neglect. Now there is none. 

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

You should not be building around or optimizing your builds around oversights and exploits. Full stop.

If you want to decrease shield gating activation downtime, use Fast Deflection or put Pillage in your frame as intended. No other Dragon Key is a benefit, and the Decaying Dragon key only became an advantage because something else was changed in the game. It is an oversight.

I have no doubt about the decaying key being an advantage, but how is 'fixing it' going to affect the game? It's only going to destroy every single aura mod in the game that is not brief respite. Because with brief respite, you can still shieldgate without any decaying key by spending more energy (not a problem for veteran players).

 

And when shieldgating is objectively superior to other methods of survivability, addressing the decaying key makes all other auras in the game useless. Hence it hurts player-choice more than reducing powercreep with the decaying key. So obviously balancing is not something so simple that a single player should get to decide. 

Besides, you as a player dont get to decide what is an exploit or what is not an exploit. Felt like that needs to be stated. 

Edited by vrgamr37
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Posted (edited)

It felt bad ass to use melee weapons against guns, now we're heading in the direction of an average TPS... what lacks is a cover system DE, and the transition will be complete.

Edited by kebra
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Posted (edited)

I don't know how I feel about this fix, having taken a while (3 years) to address it left people time to get used to it. I didn't think this was good synergy to begin with: I'd rather a weapon be good on its own rather than modding it for the use of another weapon. So I personally do not mind this change. I don't think stat-sticks are a healthy way to go about things either, but that's a different topic for another day.

So it stands to reason I'd want consideration extended to Vigilante mod bonuses as well, mostly because it doesn't seem like Vigilante's set bonus affects sentinel weapons. They are technically guns though, so maybe they should affect companion weapons. If not, then extend this to the Vigilante Set Bonus as well if it's also not intended.

Maybe even a companion rework? Wishful thinking.

I'd prefer if Vigilante's set bonus affected companion weapons, since it's strange they do not currently. They are guns that can crit and can conceivably benefit from the set bonus. Let's be real, most sentinel weapons need allll the help they can get. With Gladiator and deconstructor, I can understand this interaction being removed, Deconstructor doesn't have combo multiplier despite technically being a melee weapon. The effects of Vigilante mods themselves outside the set bonus isn't that strong but the bonus is great, it affecting both your gun and the companion's guns would justify using them over their stronger counterparts. That's cross loadout interaction I can get behind.

For the sake of transparency, I'd like to hear the developer's thoughts on this. Just to know what to expect.

Otherwise, this more or less confirms the new companions are going to have weapons that can be modded. That's just wild, and we all know they're going to the Verglas, it's the strongest companion weapon right now. Maybe we can see reworks to companion guns too? Bring them up in power to be similar to the verglas?

Or maybe this is how we're getting stronger companion weapons, via corpus liches. It'd be an interesting way to scale power with progression in the game. I don't mind that. Makes sense with how one acquires the Verglas to begin with.

Edited by Azimbee
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37 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Making a TSP survival run a challenge or difficult at the 1h mark requires heavy nerfs.

A difficult game demands better rewards. Otherwise this game will bleed players faster than people bloodletting during the plague. 

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vor 5 Minuten schrieb Jarriaga:

The health of the game itself is hurt. People getting used to or optimizing their builds around exploits just results in the anger we have in this thread when said exploit is patched out.

Thats what is happening at the moment because they over do the nef and than remove an exploit, that would not be otherwise removed ever. It hurts now the game because it wasn't a problem for the last 4 years wehen plains hit.

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Jarriaga:

That doesn't matter. A balanced game is more fun than a brain-dead cookie-cutter game for some people. Just because WF is not competitive doesn't excuse the push for powercreep or broken mechanics as if they should be the norm. That's bad game design.

There is the point for some people. If just say I don't think Warframe was ever about the challange and the balanace, changes in this direction would make you mad. A non compatative game has the big advantage to drop balance and do something different than otherwise possible.

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Jarriaga:

For fun in a meme video? Sure. 

Making your builds around them for normal or high level play? No, unless your definition of fun is tied to brain-dead broken.

Maybe its not fun for you to break Limits in a game or if you can use a weapon that is crap in a decently high level because you like how it looks, but can not compete with the top 1% of weapons  in a normal environment. So am I wrong using stuff no one else normaly uses? And is it really nessessary for a nerf of the top 1% of weapons making 6 of 8 meelee weapons I could barely use in arbitration after some research useless?

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Jarriaga:

It is a big challenge when modding actually takes a toll in your performance. Adding Rolling guard + the Decaying Dragon key is just 1 mod. Adding RG + Fast Deflection is 2 mods, so something else in your build takes a hit and the idea here is for you to prioritize and balance survivability vs. damage/range/duration. The DDK breaks that even though it was originally a handicap just like all other Dragon Keys because of a change made to shield gating and not the key in question. 

Maybe, but I don't care I didn't use either and I stll played my excal with the Deconstructor exploid in Steel Path to moderate success and I used an exploid with Helminth parcour move ability and volt to oneshot some heavy hitters untill it was fixed. Who cares if one is more difficult than the other? If you mod normal and get the same result cudos to you. 

vor 17 Minuten schrieb Jarriaga:

In my opinion, if there are no exploits or oversights that's a sign of a very high quality and thorough testing process. You know, like most people have been asking DE to do so they don't have to nerf something after release? Pick your lane. You can't go left and right at once.

I have no problem with having a bug free and exploit free game but fixing an exploid after 4 years and doing it in the update where meelee gets hit already and saying that an oversight needs fixing after a community found it and enjoid it is not the way to go. I run some pen and paper games and you know what my main rule is, I try to think about every interaction, but if the players break out of the mold and do something I didn't expect and it would wokr better I let them have it. You don't need balance to have a perfect game you have to see what players want and find a way to live with it even if you might not like it to 100%. In the end for games it is always about enjoyment of everyone. And for game companies about profit.

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Posted (edited)

I keep reading the patch and laughing

A long term oversight

Really DE 

Sooo your telling me that the bugfix ages ago that you did so the stacking effect of the mods while using them on sentinels and weapons wouldn't work anymore

You didn't call it an oversight but now that you want to obliterate Melee weapons its an oversight missed a long time ago🤔

Sry but at least have the ballls to admit you just wanted to do more nerfs and don't make up excuses to do them

 

 

Edited by maxximuxx
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5 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

A difficult game demands better rewards. Otherwise this game will bleed players faster than people bloodletting during the plague. 

That's a separate issue that is also a circular problem:

Content is not difficult enough: RNG to compensate and prolong it.

Content is not rewarding enough: People want it to be easy.

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Well.. Back to smeeta i guess..  Diversity is dying along with viable options to play with.. Bye bye Sentinels, Now you shall only be used in extremly specific situations.. Witch will prolly never happen unless i start to remember you exist. Ill put you in the pile of useless Kubrows for now.. 

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2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

That's a separate issue that is also a circular problem:

I can solve that problem in 2 words: Scaling Rewards. 

If warframe is going to be more difficult without that I as a player am not interested that kind of game. It's not why I come to play warframe.

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RIP Helios. No longer a stat stick.

Now we will only use Smeeta, the reviving kavat and ocasionally a Carrier if you're running a weapon with abysmal ammo economy. If you're removing the only utility sentinel weapons had that means you want us to use them as actual weapons, so please buff the hell out of their damage because they can't kill anything even if we mod them for damage.

Also, as you're fixing "long oversight bugs", remove the melee weapons affecting exalted weapons. Surely having a godly riven for a trash weapon with high disposition isn't intended to buff Khora's Whipclaw, right?

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Posted (edited)

What a disgrace. If they made all of the exalted and pseudo-exalted abilities separately and fully modable, I would 100% support this as I hate having to use stat sticks. Instead, these abilities will just become weaker and more dependent on rivens, which of course can't be touched. Plus Helios will only ever be used to scan new things in the future.

Edited by (PSN)The_Dark_0ne220
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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

I have no doubt about the decaying key being an advantage, but how is 'fixing it' going to affect the game? It's only going to destroy every single aura mod in the game that is not brief respite. Because with brief respite, you can still shieldgate without any decaying key by spending more energy (not a problem for veteran players).

That's fine. You are sacrificing another aura for Brief Respite. Most often than not that is going to result in lost DPS in some way, shape, or form for the sake of survivability, which is exactly how the modding system balances itself. My issue is with the DDK.

15 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

And when shieldgating is objectively superior to other methods of survivability it makes all other auras in the game useless. Hence it hurts player-choice more than reducing powercreep with the decaying key. 

That's still their choice to sacrifice all other auras for the sake for shield gating in a controlled way.

15 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

So obviously balancing is not something that a single player should get to decide. 

Besides, you as a player dont get to decide what is an exploit or what is not an exploit. Felt like that needs to be stated. 

It is an exploit. The function of the DDK itself has remained intact for years. It only suddenly became an advantage when shield gating was introduced to the game. It is an oversight because all other Dragon Keys remain as handicaps with no changes made to them at all. Refusing to recognize this is an exploit is nothing more than disingenuous, and that is not open to interpretation or opinion. 

Edited by Jarriaga
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19 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

which is a many-year-old oversight we’ve lived with, but are approaching changes more thoroughly with this Update and as a result we’re patching up this behaviour. 

Is the interaction between Vigilante set mods on sentinel weapons and primary weapons an oversight too? Can we expect changes to them in the foreseeable future as well?

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19 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Oh yeah, sure, remove the one method we had left to actually make Exalted Melee compete with regular melee.

Because it's not like the poster child of Warframe didn't need another nerf. Now I have exactly 0 reason to use Excal ever again, since I can't scale his damage up to anywhere near as high as a real melee weapon, even with his range/punchthrough.

In fact, why are we not able to equip any combo mods on our exalted melee? They are already weaker than any other melee option in most situations, and wind up being a dead slot on their frames.

Lol what? Excal doesn’t need those mods, what are you playing

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People complaining that sentinels don't do any damage... Do you even know the Verglas ? Any sentinel can equip it and have the same dps than the average player.

And yeah, if you play Helios, its for the scanning, first of all. That's the whole point of the sentinel. If you use the deconstructor, which is a strong weapon melting sortie enemies, but for the only single reason to EXPLOIT some mods bugs and empower your melee, come on, you can't be surprised it's FIXED at some point. Sentinels aren't going to get nerfed. Melee is. It shouldn't change the reason why you use this or that companion over the others.

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Posted (edited)

This forum community man, nothing but a bunch of complainers. Your melee weapons deal 500% too much damage, and attack like a blur to the point of being unable to push the button without doing yourselves a RSI to actually make the combos come out, so now you'll only deal 400% too much damage. it's fine.

 

(hyperbole statement, but still relatively true.)

Edited by Darkmega18
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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It is an exploit. The function of the DDK itself has remained intact for years. It only suddenly became an advantage when shield gating was introduced to the game. It is an oversight because all other Dragon Keys remain as handicaps with no changes made to them at all. Refusing to recognize this is an exploit is nothing more than disingenuous, and that is not open to interpretation or opinion. 

Is it though? 
In your own words,

31 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

You are sacrificing another aura for Brief Respite. Most often than not that is going to result in lost DPS in some way,

 

the DDK becomes an advantage ONLY when the player is using brief respite or augur mods because those are the mods that allow you to shieldgate reliably.
So clearly this is also hurting a players by being a handicap resulting in a DPS loss for survivability due to being unable to use other dps increasing auras if brief respite. If not brief respite then the player is sacrificing 3 mod slots to equip the augur set. 

In short: The DDK indeed puts players at a disadvantage. The player equips a very specific aura or sacrifices 3 mod slots. This is arguably a handicap to the player and hence not an exploit.

Edited by vrgamr37
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14 minutes ago, Bigbluedragon said:

Irrelevant to the quoted messagesThats what is happening at the moment because they over do the nef and than remove an exploit, that would not be otherwise removed ever. It hurts now the game because it wasn't a problem for the last 4 years wehen plains hit.

This is blatantly false and you know it. Shield gating was added to the game last year. You can not have used an exploit (The DDK) that didn't exist 4 years ago.

14 minutes ago, Bigbluedragon said:

There is the point for some people. If just say I don't think Warframe was ever about the challange and the balanace, changes in this direction would make you mad. A non compatative game has the big advantage to drop balance and do something different than otherwise possible.

As posted several pages before: There's an interview in which Reb publicly acknowledged WF is bleeding players because the game is too easy and the devs don't want that. That means keeping it Goku levels of broken is not working like they'd like for player retention. It would not be an issue to acknowledge otherwise, and steps such as adding TSP and lowering our damage ceiling are babysteps towards that end.

14 minutes ago, Bigbluedragon said:

Maybe its not fun for you to break Limits in a game or if you can use a weapon that is crap in a decently high level because you like how it looks, but can not compete with the top 1% of weapons  in a normal environment.

They are not meant to compete. This is a stats-based game, and ever since the very first Final Fantasy on NES, the swords you get at the beginning of the game are not meant to compete with sword you get in the final dungeon. You can not have stats and weapon tiers while also expecting for everything to be viable late game. Pick your lane. You can't go left and right at once. 

14 minutes ago, Bigbluedragon said:

So am I wrong using stuff no one else normaly uses? And is it really nessessary for a nerf of the top 1% of weapons making 6 of 8 meelee weapons I could barely use in arbitration after some research useless?

What on earth does that have to do with the Decaying Dragon Key?

14 minutes ago, Bigbluedragon said:

Maybe, but I don't care I didn't use either and I stll played my excal with the Deconstructor exploid in Steel Path to moderate success and I used an exploid with Helminth parcour move ability and volt to oneshot some heavy hitters untill it was fixed. Who cares if one is more difficult than the other? If you mod normal and get the same result cudos to you. 

Again: What does that have to do with the Decaying Dragon Key exploit? They should not exist. Exploits are loopholes. Loopholes bypass entire mechanics, progression trees and balancing systems. They are a sign of improper testing and poor quality control and lack of oversight. They are not things to celebrate or make treat like the new normal and define your playstyle around them because sooner or later they will be patched, and the only way they don't affect you is by not getting used to them.

14 minutes ago, Bigbluedragon said:

I have no problem with having a bug free and exploit free game but fixing an exploid after 4 years and doing it in the update where meelee gets hit already and saying that an oversight needs fixing after a community found it and enjoid it is not the way to go. I run some pen and paper games and you know what my main rule is, I try to think about every interaction, but if the players break out of the mold and do something I didn't expect and it would wokr better I let them have it. You don't need balance to have a perfect game you have to see what players want and find a way to live with it even if you might not like it to 100%. In the end for games it is always about enjoyment of everyone. And for game companies about profit.

I think you are very confused. Again: Shield gating was introduced last year, not 4 years ago. The DDK exploit became a thing at that very same moment,

And I don't understand what the problem with the Gladiator Mods is. If you were trying to benefit from them without equipping them on your frame or weapons then might as well complaint that mods in your foundry are inactive and not affecting your stats. That's the funniest thing about this debacle: There's no change for those who were using the Gladiator Mods directly.

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2 минуты назад, Darkmega18 сказал:

This forum community man, nothing but a bunch of complainers. You melee weapons deal 500% too much damage, and attack like a blur to the point of being unable to push the button without doing yourselves a RSI to actually make the combos come out, so now you'll only deal 400% too much damage. it's fine.

Dude, idk how long have you been there, but in my experience from 8 years of this farming simulator, developers nerfs something useful, which was INTENDED to be used in first place, but later they become to think: "Ah sh*t! Our playerbase are essentially gods. Let`s make them freakin weaklings!"

And those nerfs aren`t really affecting playerbase in bigger picture at all... 

Oneshot is still oneshot.

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16 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

DE has sort of tried that before, they've had truly tougher enemies. That's what is so frustrating. People just complained so much they nerfed them, proving DE can actually make some challenging enemies if they want. 

SP at least, imo could be a good chance to test something like this, at least to start with. 

On SP, we could have the fully rebuffed versions of all the old enemies that people complained about until they got nerfed to be only slightly more threatening than anything else. 

Bursas, Manics, Orb Vallis enemies in general, Sapping Ospreys, Nullies, etc, used to be so much more threatening, and just throwing on more stats doesn't matter because we can just overkill damage. 

I want the SP to have enemies with their nerfs reversed. Now that might be a fun challenge. 

adding more armor and health to the enemies will not make them harder to kill in this game , there are COUNTLESS things that has scaling damage , can remove armor , can do multiplicative infinite stacking debuff ( until the dmg cap ofc. ) , there are frames w immortality, frames that can provide infinite energy, armor and health adding WONT fix our broken kits . Our melee weapons can kill steel path level 9999 enemies with a few hits , no abillity required besides something that blinds . Only our melee and a few status proc for condition and we are not even talking about scaling abilities here , buffs or debuffs . its not enough.

 

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Posted (edited)

Got to love last minute nerfs that they sneak under the rug right before an update. 

The deconstructor stat stick has been a thing since the launch of POE and now they decide to fix it after all this time. 

Edited by AJSATmacster1
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Posted (edited)

DE, you have to stop phrasing every nerf as if you're "fixing oversights". It's so disingenuous to claim that you didn't know about this interaction when literally every single content creator has been mentioning it on every single melee video for years and years. There's no one at DE that could avoid knowing about this, and yet you're saying it was something you just happened to not notice was happening? (As others have pointed out, you even patched out how you could initially stack copies of the same mod across your sentinel and warframe setup. So you clearly knew about the rest of the interaction and turned a blind eye.)

I don't even disagree with the idea of nerfing how readily available crit chance is for melee. Having every single melee weapon red crit permanently isn't necessarily a good idea. If you want to make it so that red crits are only available under very situational circumstances with heavy investment and stacking buffs, I'm fine with that as long as the rest of the game is tuned to that level. But your philosophy and communication when it comes to these things is absolutely appalling. Please just try to be honest about your reasons for a change.

Edited by Shilag
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