Deconstructor Melee Modding Changes (Sisters of Parvos)

[B4HEK]

4 минуты назад, (XBOX)Deathunited сказал:

If they nerf things by popularity then do it smart and not make it ridiculous for players. People was already not happy with the first set of nerfs to melees. That was only 3. It replaceable but not you going in as a set to make melees harder to use. I thought we suppose to be powerful and choose our path of weapons? Not be forced to trash certain strong weapons that WAS strong.

You don`t get it. 

WE MUST PLAY GAME AS DE SEES IT.

This means, any real diversity to the gameplay could be nerfed, because it doesn`t fit DE`s vision for the game.

[AJSATmacster1]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Deathunited said:

If they nerf things by popularity then do it smart and not make it ridiculous for players. People was already not happy with the first set of nerfs to melees. That was only 3. It replaceable but not you going in as a set to make melees harder to use. I thought we suppose to be powerful and choose our path of weapons? Not be forced to trash certain strong weapons that WAS strong.

Funny thing is they're not touching the vigilante set. So, yea we just need to male the melee nerf a little less tolerable. In reality you just need two gladiator mods to negate the blood rush nerf. 

[(XBOX)Itz To Legit]

I thought they were going to buff primary and secondary weapons, and nerf melee. But all they’ve have done is nerf and nerf and nerf. I haven’t seen any stat changes for primary or secondary mods, nor weapons. Sooooooo wtf. Oh well still going to play lol

[-QueenUnicorn-]

would have been nice to know this a week ago but hey nice little surprise right

[(PSN)Zero_029]

The vitriol in this thread is about what I expected.

I'll be blunt with DE and just say...

Yiu were well aware of this interaction within the FIRST month of set mods being introduced go the game.

By "allowing" this unintended interaction to persist for literally years. You endorsed the interaction as "Not a bug. But a feature."

So for that. You 100% earned the backlash.

Please note:

I personally respect the decisions being made and shrug my shoulders at the  change. Yeah  if numbers are fun but having to maybe press a button 1 more time isn't the apocalypse for me.

Back to the point.

It's obvious that the dev team wants to take Warframe into a different direction. And many of us know there is a stigma amongst the devs as they have openly admitted that "They feel hostage, to the players." Over changes they wish to make.

Well...as my above point about not addressing issues points out. Before claiming to be hostage, there is a small (large in this specific case) shred of accountability that falls on the "victim".

There are some VERY long standing issues in this game. And they are now essentially "features" rather than bugs.

Any dev team of a AAA game will tell you that. If the issues isn't addressed asap, then you risk it being a permanent addition.

This is why test servers, and large QA teams exist. Period.

That said...

I can't shake the vibe that DE wants to move Warframe AWAY from being a Dynasty Warriors/Diablo-ish style game, and move it more into a The Division/Destiny realm.

Once again I'll be blunt.

If you (DE) wish to do that. Then you need to Publically Announce and Detail. The "Why".

Next, you need to pull the trigger on it and take the backlash and growing pains.

But note. Such a change will merit removing 90% (of the already unused and pointless mods), and require that patches be more stat, performance, and gameplay tuned.

The constant addition of mods to "buff" (it isn't a buff to an item/gameplay mode if the player has to "earn" the buff. That's a bandaid.) weapons, frames, etc is not the right path.

Every year the game needs a full balance pass.

Every year gameplay needs to be evaluated and retuned.

Every year mods needs to be balanced and retuned.

And yes. Rivens and "RNG" stats need to go. You cannot balance "random".

Just be aware that making the game less brainless Dynasty Warriors/Diablo means reducing enemy count, will require dramatic AI upgrades and programming, and some dramatic lore revision.

The game is old. But it's shifted dramatically before and survived.

But these shifts can't be done wildly.

Pick a direction and walk in it. Then let the cards fall where they must.

It'll dramatically help reduce how venomous these tweek/band-aid workshops get. As atleast then the players will know the what and why.

[vr37]

4 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Is anyone arguing that the Decaying Dragon Key is an advantage when not paired with some way to regain shields (brief respite, augur mods, warframe/companion abilities, rakta dark dagger, etc.)?   It becomes an exploit when combined with shield regaining methods, and it only became abusable (or worth abusing) when shield gating was introduced.

Is anyone arguing about negative puncture rivens or Transient fortitude Hildryn being an exploit? because those negative are supposed to handicap you but as it happens players can be creative to willingly use a handicap for something else. It's not uncommon to find that in warframe. Calling it an exploit is laughable at the very least.

Besides a player with no means to regain shields (out of energy/ability disabled by enemy/infested enemies) is at an even bigger disadvantage with the DDK. Not only they have lost shield capacity but also 3 mods slots/aura being useless to them at that point.

[Lone_Dude]

Fascinating. -1 viable companion. You also copied the "status pulse" from Mecha set into Helminth because it was bugged and didn't just copy status effects but continously re-applied them. Did you fix that too? Will it be one of those "stealth fix you didn't ask but we did it" kind of deals? At this point I'm just wondering how much of my arsenal will become, as a certain character says IRRELEVANT once I login in after a few months of not playing the game. You do realize that by nerfing Blood Rush AND Deconstructor, you just made even MORE of non-meta melee less viable. What do you want? More riven mod usage? You're not balancing a damn competitive shooter. Your game is not that complex. Stop removing player attempts to diversify gameplay JUST to slightly reduce strength of the 1% of players that are already on the top. This is all a joke at this point.

[Jarriaga]

45 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

Oh boy, how is something an advantage to the player when equipping the said item removes an aura slot or 3 mod slots from your choice entirely?

Because no matter the situation, decreasing the time it takes for shield gating to be replenished is a desirable outcome under all circumstances. That's why I used the example of the DDK being an advantage even if you remove all else.

45 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

It is arguably a profound disadvantage that the player willingly accepts. Unless you personally have a problem with that playstyle. If you do, well I understand but that's not a reason to call it an exploit due to personal biases against certain playstyles. 

Exploit abuse is not a playstyle. It is not something the devs willingly add with the intention to be used as such. Don't be disingenuous as to pretend and/or imply otherwise.

45 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

Need I remind you that this is nowhere close to an oversight as Helios Deconstructor stat-stick is and was? 

I don't care whether or not an oversight is big or small. It is an oversight and thus should be corrected. All of them.

45 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

Negative effects that players use to their advantage willingly are not uncommon in warframe if you are aware about how negative impact/puncture rivens and certain corrupted mods work? I suppose one could argue those being exploits too?

Not at all. DE introduced -puncture and -impact to Riven pools. Players use them to their advantage, yes, but at least the Rivens were introduced with said mechanics from the beginning. Even though both scenarios result in players turning a perceived disadvantage into an advantage, the difference is that the DDK didn't become an advantage until something else changed.  

45 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

 In short: there needs to be a greater consensus if us, as players want this change to benefit from the game. It is easy to understand that the whims of a single player are very much insignificant to a live service game like warframe. 

Well, even as an "insignificant" sample, at least 16 other players agree with me this is an exploit that should be corrected if we count the support for my initial post. 

[G0D5peed]

Trash.
Then take the vigilante set off the others.

(sigh) oversight, but only addressing half of it. 

[AJSATmacster1]

9 minutes ago, Lone_Dude said:

Fascinating. -1 viable companion. You also copied the "status pulse" from Mecha set into Helminth because it was bugged and didn't just copy status effects but continously re-applied them. Did you fix that too? Will it be one of those "stealth fix you didn't ask but we did it" kind of deals? At this point I'm just wondering how much of my arsenal will become, as a certain character says IRRELEVANT once I login in after a few months of not playing the game. You do realize that by nerfing Blood Rush AND Deconstructor, you just made even MORE of non-meta melee less viable. What do you want? More riven mod usage? You're not balancing a damn competitive shooter. Your game is not that complex. Stop removing player attempts to diversify gameplay JUST to slightly reduce strength of the 1% of players that are already on the top. This is all a joke at this point.

Yep, and well said. All they did even with the nerf to kuva nukor is make it stronger potentially same with the Bramma. 

[B4HEK]

4 минуты назад, Jarriaga сказал:

Well, even as an "insignificant" sample, at least 16 other players agree with me this is an exploit that should be corrected if we count the support for my initial post. 

Please, divide 16 to number of people in this post who aren`t happy about changes...

This would be an efficient comparison

[N7Cadaverous]

... You know what? I'll wait a week or two to play this update, this way I risk less on the topic of investing on something just for them to nerf it.
I don't even use Helios, but this makes no sense.

[ValinorAtani]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)Itz To Legit:

I thought they were going to buff primary and secondary weapons, and nerf melee. But all they’ve have done is nerf and nerf and nerf. I haven’t seen any stat changes for primary or secondary mods, nor weapons. Sooooooo wtf. Oh well still going to play lol

DE wants you to buy Plat to bypass the "necessary weapon rework" grind by adding bandaid arcanes and mods. The dont care anymore about good gameplay or satisfied customers.

[Jarriaga]

11 minutes ago, Bigbluedragon said:

To be as condescending as you. You might be confused, I didn't mention the DDK here. The DDK exploid is already and was for the past year a "problem".

 

You quoted me in a conversation about the DDK:

 

[Aexea]

6 minutes ago, Ogarra_Remaellus said:

Never knew this was a thing. Reading comments about how exalted and some melee weapons are now ruined. Laughing internally at how many people are going to be bad at the game because it’s no longer just pressing E. 

As opposed to holding/occassionally tapping left click. And that's as far as it goes for guns, there's no need for gap closing (outside of shorter ranged weps like some shotguns), no weaving between combos for optimal clear while progressing, no buildup or maintenance of combo, and no heavy input.

If you're just pressing E, it's a waste of time. You could be clearing enemies much faster through a variety of other methods.

[Jarriaga]

2 minutes ago, B4HEK said:

Please, divide 16 to number of people in this post who aren`t happy about changes...

This would be an efficient comparison

Your argument goes both ways and I can absolutely make the same statement about the potential number of people who agreed but didn't flag it. To be fair, same can be said about people who agree with those who disagree with me but didn't flag it.

But at least one is something you can directly measure. The other requires imagining what may potentially be there.

[B4HEK]

2 минуты назад, Jarriaga сказал:

Your argument goes both ways and I can absolutely make the same statement about the potential number of people who agreed but didn't flag it. To be fair, same can be said about people who agree with those who disagree with me but didn't flag it.

But at least one is something you can directly measure. The other requires imagining what may potentially be there.

The point is: Forums doesn`t cover an entire playerbase... It could be the 1% of all Warframe players who like this changes or the other way.

But something tells me that first option is correct.

[AJSATmacster1]

2 minutes ago, Aerokaze said:

As opposed to holding/occassionally tapping left click. And that's as far as it goes for guns, there's no need for gap closing (outside of shorter ranged weps like some shotguns), no weaving between combos for optimal clear while progressing, no buildup or maintenance of combo, and no heavy input.

If you're just pressing E, it's a waste of time. You could be clearing enemies much faster through a variety of other methods.

Bramma Aoe and Kuva Nukor basically when I'm not in the mood for melee. Melee ramps up pretty fast compared to the old counter. 

[Bigbluedragon]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Jarriaga:

You quoted me in a conversation about the DDK:

 

And Building around of expoids is in my oppinion still a totally viable gamestyle. If you using a DDK to build around using one extramod in your setup or making a trade off for more damage on your meelee weapon for a meelee combo buff over your sentinals weapon or using thermal sunder on Harrow this beeing a total oversight on DEs part.

[sunderthefirmament]

11 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

Is anyone arguing about negative puncture rivens or Transient fortitude Hildryn being an exploit? because those negative are supposed to handicap you but as it happens players can be creative to willingly use a handicap for something else. It's not uncommon to find that in warframe. Calling it an exploit is laughable at the very least.

Besides a player with no means to regain shields (out of energy/ability disabled by enemy/infested enemies) is at an even bigger disadvantage with the DDK. Not only they have lost shield capacity but also 3 mods slots/aura being useless to them at that point.

Not that I've seen, but maybe they should be lol.  It is interesting how the "negatives" on rivens can be twisted into positives through buffing other stats or through leading to more a ideal IPS spread. 

 

Just because an exploit hasn't been addressed yet doesn't mean it shouldn't be.  Where DE stumbles is in letting these things slide for way too long, like with the utterly stupid Limbo/Exodia Contagion abuse.  And another area they stumble is in just patching it as opposed to giving some of these abusable systems the overhauls they deserve.  But based on the screeching here, I can see why they don't do that very often.

[Jarriaga]

24 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

I totally forgot about that change. I remember now that DE patched it so that you could not have a double gladiator mod set bonus on Deconstructor.

@Jarriaga That means that ever since that point, having the Helios as a stat stick was not an exploit--it was a feature.

 

I think the Gladiator set was an oversight they didn't correct back then. You do have set mods that require to be placed on companions such as the Hunter and Synth sets, so the carry-over functionality to detect how many total mods of the set you have equipped in your loadout works, but Gladiator was a set that only benefitted Helios as you can't give its weapon to anyone else.

Removing the ability to stack Gladiator Vice when equipped in both your melee and Helios doesn't change that. It was simply a duplicate.

DE messed up by not blocking this back then.

[ShortCat]

19 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I stand by this: Refusing to recognize this is an exploit is nothing more than disingenuous, and that is not open to interpretation or opinion. 

If hypnotizing yourself makes you feel better, go ahead. But please stop spreading this nonsense.

Set mods affecting the entire loadout is definetely not an oversight or exploit. There are explicit cross-sets like Mecha ot Tek that function this way (that's why mods are removed entirely and not just the set bonus affecting melee).
Furthermore, Gladiator mods used to double dip when we had to mod our sentinels separately with a second pair of mods. This double dip was patched out when sentinels were changed to not require a second pair of mods. Yet the interaction remained. JUST LIKE THE INTERACTION WITH VIGILANTE MODS and all the other stat sticks.

You cannot go around and praise them for "fixing an exploit" when it was done in one instance of the many available. Especially not considdering overal context of events. "Gladiator set fix" is a reactionary nerf to feedback, that proposed melee changes are not going far enough. At this point DE cannot go and say "We are changing BR to 30%", becasue they would look like complete fools, thus they go the extra mile to find another excuse. And by doing so they appear like dishonest clowns. If you believe it was a "4 year oversight" and they are on track for positive changes, then you should write a letter to Santa with those wishes.

[AJSATmacster1]

They just need to do a balance pass every year. 

[Bigbluedragon]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Jarriaga:

I think the Gladiator set was an oversight they didn't correct back then. You do have set mods that require to be placed on companions such as the Hunter and Synth sets, so the carry-over functionality to detect how many total mods of the set you have equipped in your loadout, but Gladiator was a set that only benefitted Helios as you can't give its weapon to anyone else.

Sure you can give it to any other sentinal. And that you didn't need a mod in your weapon is also false you needed at least one of  the sets peaces to earn the benefit.

[Jarriaga]

4 minutes ago, Bigbluedragon said:

And Building around of expoids is in my oppinion still a totally viable gamestyle. If you using a DDK to build around using one extramod in your setup or making a trade off for more damage on your meelee weapon for a meelee combo buff over your sentinals weapon or using thermal sunder on Harrow this beeing a total oversight on DEs part.

A viable playstyle that is bound to be blocked and removed at any moment because that's not intended by the devs?

OK.

Be my guest.