Deconstructor Melee Modding Changes (Sisters of Parvos)

[Jarriaga]

3 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

If hypnotizing yourself makes you feel better, go ahead. But please stop spreading this nonsense.

I'm speaking about the Decaying Dragon Key exploit, which I want them to remove. If you have an emotional automatic rejection of the premise that it is an exploit and thus label it nonsense then be my guest. Just be aware that you are the one hypnotizing yourself by pretending it isn't.

[Bigbluedragon]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Jarriaga:

A viable playstyle that is bound to be blocked and removed at any moment because that's not intended by the devs?

OK.

Be my guest.

Like everything else DE sees as op. That dosn't save your build if they say shildgating workarounds are to op. They remove your mod combination and the exploid as well

[AJSATmacster1]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

A viable playstyle that is bound to be blocked and removed at any moment because that's not intended by the devs?

OK.

Be my guest.

Yet they've let this slide since POE and they're not touching the vilgilante set. So, they only "fiixed" half of it...

[PacoSakima]

Many yrs oversight ... seriously?! oh well, thats a good way to sabotage the player base. 

[dwqrf]

il y a 5 minutes, Bigbluedragon a dit :

Sure you can give it to any other sentinal.

You cannot equip Deconstructor/Prime on anything else than Helios/Prime. You can give Helios any weapons, but you cannot give Deconstructor to any other sentinel.

[RealHoneyBadger]

21 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hi Tenno,

The Sisters of Parvos update will bring three new Modular Hound Companions, each with a unique Melee weapon. While reviewing these Companion Weapons, we noticed the Helios-old problem that there’s a lot of Melee Mods that you can equip, but don’t really function on companion Melee. There’s also some ‘invisible gear hopping’ where if you put Mods on your Deconstructor (or Prime), the carry over to your Melee which is a many-year-old oversight we’ve lived with, but are approaching changes more thoroughly with this Update and as a result we’re patching up this behaviour. 

When did you find out that this was a problem? And why were you unresponsive to the community when these long standing problems were feedback to you since POE update came out? 

Also, if you were serious about approaching changes, why were Vigilante mods excluded? Is this still a problem or a feature? What about high dispo rivens as stat sticks for exalted weapons, is that a feature or exploit? 

It would be great if you could address what are exploits and features before rolling out last minute nerfs like this, because at this point some of us treat these "problems" as intended game mechanics. This sort of cherry picking of "problems" you want to fix isn't the way to go. Address the community and list down problems you are working on, so we know what are those and don't have to invest time/forma into stuff that we know are problems.

[Jarriaga]

4 minutes ago, Bigbluedragon said:

Like everything else DE sees as op. That dosn't save your build if they say shildgating workarounds are to op. They remove your mod combination and the exploid as well

Like every OP build and weapon, yes. But a lot more likely because it's also a bug on top of being broken and powerful.

 

5 minutes ago, AJSATmacster1 said:

Yet they've let this slide since POE and they're not touching the vilgilante set. So, they only "fiixed" half of it...

Better late than never though. And we don't know if they are indeed patching out the Vigilante set down the line and failed to mention it.

[vr37]

39 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

decreasing the time it takes for shield gating to be replenished is a desirable outcome under all circumstances.

Incorrect, not all circumstances. Only specific to the situation where A) certain mods are used and thus players has fewer mod slots for power. This doesn't even require rolling guard. It is a clear disadvantage when used by frames which requires a certain playstyle to survive and btw,

39 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Exploit abuse is not a playstyle.

It is not an exploit. No matter how many players you can gather in your campaign, no player gets to decide what is or is not an exploit so what you said about 16 (?) people agreeing with you is totally irrelevant.

 

39 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

but at least the Rivens were introduced with said mechanics from the beginning.

Yes, but read what you said below where you contradict what you say and what things are: 

39 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

the difference is that the DDK didn't become and advantage because something else changed.  

so minus fire rate or puncture rivens become meta because impact -> slash conversion is possible as something else got added to the game later is surely 100% an exploit in your own logic.

Except it's not and you're free to disagree. But a player deciding to interpret on behalf of the devs about what they might consider as an oversight will be subject to debate by the community. 

 

 

[ShortCat]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

I'm speaking about the Decaying Dragon Key exploit, which I want them to remove. If you have an emotional automatic rejection of the premise that it is an exploit and thus label it nonsense then be my guest. Just be aware that you are the one hypnotizing yourself by pretending it isn't.

Yes, seems like the part was indeed about dragon keys. Yet, you still praised them for Gladiator fix. Your intentions and my response are still alighned in the correct way.

But if you are interested on my opinion on the dragon key matter, then here it is. Dragon key reducing shields is not an exploit. Shield gate triggering of fully restored shields is not an exploit. Thus their interaction cannot be an exploit, but a result of sloppy design created by DE themselves, becasue they cannot keep track of their game.

[Lokime]

Are you aware that the only reason people use sentinels nowadays is because you can stat stick on them right? You singlehandedly declared Kavats master race. 

All you're doing by removing stats sticks is making weaker weapons less usable and stronger weapons a better option overall, that's a gap you won't fix easily now.  Also since you're nerfing things remove vigilante sets and all other sets for primary and secondary, at least be consistent. 

[Jarriaga]

13 minutes ago, Bigbluedragon said:

Sure you can give it to any other sentinal. And that you didn't need a mod in your weapon is also falls you needed at least one of  the sets peaces to earn the benefit.

You can't give Deconstructor to any Sentinel other than Helios. That was a typo on my end: Until something else was changed.

[AJSATmacster1]

1 minute ago, Lokime said:

Are you aware that the only reason people use sentinels nowadays is because you can stat stick on them right? You singlehandedly declared Kavats master race. 

All you're doing by removing stats sticks is making weaker weapons less usable and stronger weapons a better option overall, that's a gap you won't fix easily now.  Also since you're nerfing things remove vigilante sets and all other sets for primary and secondary, at least be consistent. 

Which they're not unless they squeak those in literally right before it launches but I doubt it. They only did it to make the melee nerfs less tolerable.

[Jarriaga]

3 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Yes, seems like the part was indeed about dragon keys. Yet, you still praised them for Gladiator fix. Your intentions and my response are still alighned in the correct way.

But if you are interested on my opinion on the dragon key matter, then here it is. Dragon key reducing shields is not an exploit. Shield gate triggering of fully restored shields is not an exploit. Thus their interaction cannot be an exploit, but a result of sloppy design created by DE themselves, becasue they cannot keep track of their game.

Any time DE patches an exploit or loophole they'll get praise from me.

Any time DE add exploits or loopholes they'll get flak from me. Even more so when they fail to patch them in due time after they were pointed out.

No exceptions. 

[Cystax]

3 minutes ago, RealHoneyBadger said:

Also, if you were serious about approaching changes, why were Vigilante mods excluded? Is this still a problem or a feature? What about high dispo rivens as stat sticks for exalted weapons, is that a feature or exploit? 

This assumes that this change had anything to do with consistency and wasn't to directly nerf melee even further

as i said earlier, if you really are changing this because deconstructor doesn't benefit from the combo multiplier part, then remove gladiator aegis and finesse from the game, because that combo multiplier part doesn't benefit my warframe, yet i can still put those on my warframe. 

[B4HEK]

1 минуту назад, Jarriaga сказал:

Any time DE patches an exploit or loophole they'll get praise from me.

Any time DE add exploits or loopholes they'll get flak from me. Even more so when they fail to patch them in due time after they were pointed out.

No exceptions. 

Question for you then: 

Is Life strike + Quick thinking\Adrenaline an exploit or a legitimate game mechanic to use?

[AJSATmacster1]

1 minute ago, Cystax said:

This assumes that this change had anything to do with consistency and wasn't to directly nerf melee even further

as i said earlier, if you really are changing this because deconstructor doesn't benefit from the combo multiplier part, then remove gladiator aegis and finesse from the game, because that combo multiplier part doesn't benefit my warframe, yet i can still put those on my warframe. 

I think it was to nerf melee further there's no reason for them literally right before launch to do this "fix". 

[Jarriaga]

Just now, B4HEK said:

Question for you then: 

Is Life strike + Quick thinking\Adrenaline an exploit or a legitimate game mechanic to use?

Considering they have added entirely new mechanics and features that work like Life Strike (Gloom), then I say no. It's not an exploit.

[Bigbluedragon]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Jarriaga:

You can't give Deconstructor to any Sentinel other than Helios.

 

vor 4 Minuten schrieb dwqrf:

You cannot equip Deconstructor/Prime on anything else than Helios/Prime. You can give Helios any weapons, but you cannot give Deconstructor to any other sentinel.

Okay just jeckted it it was wrong information on my part. I could have sworn I selected the weapon with shade once. 

BUt the other part I tested a lot, how the interaction si working.
 

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Jarriaga:

Like every OP build and weapon, yes. But a lot more likely because it's also a bug on top of being broken and powerful.

It isn't a bug. If you say the functionality of the DDK is a bug than you are wrong and if you say the mod working with this a bug than you are also wrong. It has an unintended interaction but it was never a bug. It's not like you really create a glitch or something else. If DE sees it as too powerful they will remove workaround of shield gating completely I can promiss you that. 

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Jarriaga:

vor 15 Minuten schrieb AJSATmacster1:

 

Better late than never though. And we don't know if they are indeed patching out the Vigilante set down the line and failed to mention it.

oh no did I argue with a troll? You must be a troll. Seeing the patchnotes and saying yea it was a bug good that it is gone now.

[ShogunGunshow]

Maybe you can fix the hundreds of other more serious bugs that actually impact your players' experience negatively along with this? Like how Kitgun arcanes aren't copied to Wukong's and Equinox's Duality clones? Since arcanes are apparently what we're doing to try and balance guns, seems kind of important.

[B4HEK]

2 минуты назад, Jarriaga сказал:

Considering they have added entirely new mechanics and features that work like Life Strike (Gloom), then I say no. It's not an exploit.

Remember your words when this mechanic would be called long oversight.

[Cystax]

2 minutes ago, AJSATmacster1 said:

I think it was to nerf melee further there's no reason for them literally right before launch to do this "fix". 

They "fix" this but don't fix something that's actually probably unintended, like infinite bleedout oberon, which has been a thing since renewal got reworked back in 2017. 

I literally have a whole meme build around being in bleedout forever. It's so dumb. 

Would i be upset if they fixed that? Yes, it has no good uses

Would it make sense and would I understand? Yes.

They should fix that interaction instead of whatever they did here

[Jarriaga]

2 minutes ago, Bigbluedragon said:

It isn't a bug. If you say the functionality of the DDK is a bug than you are wrong and if you say the mod working with this a bug than you are also wrong. It has an unintended interaction but it was never a bug. It's not like you really create a glitch or something else. If DE sees it as too powerful they will remove workaround of shield gating completely I can promiss you that. 

A bug is an unintended behavior in software. There are multiple types of bugs from programming errors to unintended interactions. They are all bugs, just classified with different names to make it easier to understand the source/cause of the bug.

The Decaying Dragon Key + Rolling Guard combo is a bug/exploit that should be patched out.

1 minute ago, Bigbluedragon said:

oh no did I argue with a troll? You must be a troll. Seeing the patchnotes and saying yea it was a bug good that it is gone now.

You're free to think of me whatever you like. Please add me to your ignore list if you are certain I'm a troll.

[AJSATmacster1]

1 minute ago, Cystax said:

They "fix" this but don't fix something that's actually probably unintended, like infinite bleedout oberon, which has been a thing since renewal got reworked back in 2017. 

I literally have a whole meme build around being in bleedout forever. It's so dumb. 

Would i be upset if they fixed that? Yes, it has no good uses

Would it make sense and would I understand? Yes.

They should fix that interaction instead of whatever they did here

Yea which why "fix" it. Good for you meme builds are fun. 

[flosdxD]

23 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

A viable playstyle that is bound to be blocked and removed at any moment because that's not intended by the devs?

OK.

Be my guest.

I see. Its a horrible exploit. They should nerf the decaying dragon key to -99% shields instead of -75% shields.

[ShogunGunshow]

Remember when Khora being able to heal defense objectives was labeled a bug by DE because they wanted to stop you from healing OPlinks in Scarlet Spear? Even though the recommendation to use Khora to heal defense objectives was literally a tooltip? Or when they claimed that Marked for Death exceeding target health was a bug (a bug that worked 100% of the time and would have been caught if anyone did any testing at all)?

DE just calls things bugs when there's an interaction they want to get rid of.