Why sentinels are the worst companions and how to fix it

[HardcoreSalmon]

I never use sentinels, even though sometimes I would like to. This is for one main reason, they die!

Every other type of companion can be revived infinitely, can get healed by your melee weapon and can use Link armor, link health and link shields, but sentinels no.

Let's do a comparison:

Dethcube Prime

Shields: 375
Health: 960
Armor: 315
Possible healing: +6/s
Revives: 3 (with a maxed prime mod)

Kavat (with Inaros)

Shields: 180
Health: 9,787
Armor: 770

Kavat (with Gauss)

Shields: 1290
Health: 1410
Armor: 225

For both:
Possible healing: infinite through melee
Revives: Infinite

Why would I bring a sentinel again? Of course there are some niche situations where they are useful like helios scans. At really high levels the only reason people bring them is for the gladiator set mods on Helios. Most of the time I never consider using them because I know they are just going to die at any reasonable level and if I want to use one of the sentinel weapons then I will just use a MOA because I can revive them.

And mods like primed regen barely help at all. Which is better: 3 instant revives with a crazy resource cost or infinite possible revives at no cost?

Yes you have to manually revive them but I would rather have that than have a dead companion.

The solution:

The fix is really simple. Let us revive sentinels and let us equip pack leader and the link mods on them too. Mods like Primed Regen and Reawaken should give you instant revives on top of being able to revive them after that.

[quxier]

23 minutes ago, HardcoreSalmon said:

 

The fix is really simple. Let us revive sentinels and let us equip pack leader and the link mods on them too. Mods like Primed Regen and Reawaken should give you instant revives on top of being able to revive them after that.

Just let them be immortal. Who is gonna like babysit such AI?

[(NSW)Zergmaster999]

56 minutes ago, quxier said:

Who is gonna like babysit such AI?

*Glaring at operative defense*

[(XBOX)Erkwounder]

Sentinells biggest issue is how they are one shotted down. One reason for that they dont have enough armor/hitpoint to take damage on higher levels.

Second thing is flying sentinels dont use any damage reduction mods expect armor.

Third reason is how sentinels cannot use link mods.

 

  

[Leqesai]

If sentinels are so bad why do most of my loadouts use them?

Personally I find the utility of sentinels far more useful than the utility of companions. Sure there are some exceptions (Panzer, Smeeta) but generally speaking I find Dethcube, Ocylus (spelling) and Helios more useful simply because of the sentinel abilities + set mods gained from their weapons. 

You did mention helios and the gladiator set mod in your post but Dethcube's ability to generate energy orbs is really useful. Ocylus's ability to scan plants is also really useful. Helios's scanning is also useful...

Smeeta is a go-to for lower level players because the extra resources and whatnot are very useful. But for meta MR 30 players Smeeta is not near as useful because they already have everything (and millions of resources stockpiled). I'd only use a Smeeta if I were running low on a resource.

Panzer is decent for extra DPS but honestly what content actually needs more dps? Game is piss easy already. Not a single one of my loadouts is incapable of clearing everything outside of steel path, and even in steel path I'd rather go with a loadout that doesn't need companion DPS than one that does.

My point is, Companions may have more survivability but they certainly aren't as useful. Not every sentinel is useful but the three that are, are the BIS options (between all available pets). Considering we already have a bandaid mod that can revive sentinels infinitely I don't think this is really much of an argument anymore. 

[TheSixOfDiamonds]

3 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Considering we already have a bandaid mod that can revive sentinels infinitely

I was not aware of a mod for all sentinels that did that, only for Djinn. Name, please?

[Leqesai]

2 minutes ago, TheSixOfDiamonds said:

I was not aware of a mod for all sentinels that did that, only for Djinn. Name, please?

it is the augment for Protea's dispensary

[Drasiel]

Sentinel survivability is bad but let's not over-exaggerate the survivability of non vulpaphyla pets. Pet AI does not distinguish between safe floor and aoe damage. They will repeatedly suicide into sapping bombs, napalm spots, mutalist tar and just stand in there without moving dying again and again.

Let's also not forget that link mods are only effective with tanky frames.

Pets in across the board need a revival system like djinn or vulpaphylas or a MAJOR  overhaul in AIl. Sentinels either need that revival system or to be immune to AOE because they cannot move out of the way. One of the worst offenders is electric procs on your frame. You get electric procced and the aoe will kill your sentinel in seconds with no way to mitigate it.

The flat health, shield, and armour mods need to be buffed to the warframe mod levels so you can actually use them in higher level content.

 

[BiancaRoughfin]

I use the Djinn with the Helstrum weapon as my main companion. The Djinn has 60m attack Range which is double of most Sentinels, Djinn with the Reawaken mod can revive infinitely in mission and the Helstrum seeks enemies, deals AoE damage and procs 10+ stacks of status effect in all of the enemies hit at the same time. Mine is built for Viral and Heat so its far better than the Panzer which has a limited 20m and 6 mobs at a time with a 4 sec Cooldown.

I main Zephyr so Survivability of my Sentinel isnt much an issue unless dealing with AoE attacks as its always protected by my Turbulence.

Just now, Leqesai said:

If sentinels are so bad why do most of my loadouts use them?

Because people often use Helios with the Deconstructor weapon so it auto-scans enemies and the set mods on its weapons combo with those on the player`s Melee weapons, something that wont be happening anymore from tomorrow`s update on.

[TheSixOfDiamonds]

2 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

it is the augment for Protea's dispensary

I shouldn't be surprised. Her subsumable ability, of course. I can't comment on that augment, not bothered to go get the last pieces of Protea yet, so I can't say if it'd be worth plonking both an Augment and Ability on every frame (or only running Protea, which imo sounds boring) just to have my floating weapons platforms survive at higher levels.

[Leqesai]

1 minute ago, TheSixOfDiamonds said:

I shouldn't be surprised. Her subsumable ability, of course. I can't comment on that augment, not bothered to go get the last pieces of Protea yet, so I can't say if it'd be worth plonking both an Augment and Ability on every frame (or only running Protea, which imo sounds boring) just to have my floating weapons platforms survive at higher levels.

Sentinel survivability is not an issue with high CC builds though. This is often neglected when people mention how squishy sentinels are. A strong CC build negates the squishiness of sentinels completely.

My meta equinox build, for example, has immense CC and I don't think my sentinel has ever been downed a single time let alone exhausted all of their revives while using Equinox.

Sentinel squishiness may be a valid topic of discussion for lower level players but at some point you realize how to keep them alive and the survivability thing becomes mostly irrelevant.

Sentinel squishiness is easily bypassed by: Invisibility, Slow, Chaos, Turbulence, Walls/bubbles, resonator/spectrorage etc.

[TheSixOfDiamonds]

1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

at some point you realize how to keep them alive

I just stopped caring, for some reasons OP mentioned. As dumb as my Kubrow can be, for the moment it's easier to just run a melee build and Primed Pack Leader and not worry about it. Or if I want a weapons platform, bring a MOA.

[Drasiel]

1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

Sentinel survivability is not an issue with high CC builds though. This is often neglected when people mention how squishy sentinels are. A strong CC build negates the squishiness of sentinels completely.

My meta equinox build, for example, has immense CC and I don't think my sentinel has ever been downed a single time let alone exhausted all of their revives while using Equinox.

Sentinel squishiness may be a valid topic of discussion for lower level players but at some point you realize how to keep them alive and the survivability thing becomes mostly irrelevant.

Sentinel squishiness is easily bypassed by: Invisibility, Slow, Chaos, Turbulence, Walls/bubbles, resonator/spectrorage etc.

well duh, of course if you lock down the whole map surivability isn't a problem for anything. There are other playstyles though that should be able to use sentinels without them dying 5 mins into a mission.

[Leqesai]

29 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

well duh, of course if you lock down the whole map surivability isn't a problem for anything. There are other playstyles though that should be able to use sentinels without them dying 5 mins into a mission.

Yup, but my point is: If you're running a build that is not able to sustain your sentinel then maybe a companion makes sense. Personally the only builds I run where this is an issue are mindless tank builds. With Helminth every warframe can be built with viable CC that can keep sentinels alive decently well.

Panzer vulp makes sense if you're running an Inaros that doesn't use any abilities.

Sentinels make sense if you're running any sort of ability-focused frame/loadout because CC is so easy to build for, nowadays. 

[Drasiel]

54 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Yup, but my point is: If you're running a build that is not able to sustain your sentinel then maybe a companion makes sense. Personally the only builds I run where this is an issue are mindless tank builds. With Helminth every warframe can be built with viable CC that can keep sentinels alive decently well.

Panzer vulp makes sense if you're running an Inaros that doesn't use any abilities.

Sentinels make sense if you're running any sort of ability-focused frame/loadout because CC is so easy to build for, nowadays. 

I can see your point but I feel that sentinels should be a viable option for more than just a CC playstyle. You're also making a bold assumption about the use of helminth, sure min maxers are going to dive right into that but people who like the theme of warframes won't. They want to play with the frame as originally intended.  Along the same lines of that sentinel suvivability starts to fall off well before the end of the starchart and with having helminth as a more endgame oriented system doesn't sit well with me as a solution to sentinel surivability because it's a solution that comes too late.

Vulps are actually more versatile than just panzer the one sly, I think it is? with it's evasion stat can massively boost the defensive abilities of the right frames and most importantly vulps just let you keep your utility mods with very little down time due to death. You don't have to run a tank to makes vulps work because they just come back.

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, Drasiel said:

I can see your point but I feel that sentinels should be a viable option for more than just a CC playstyle. You're also making a bold assumption about the use of helminth, sure min maxers are going to dive right into that but people who like the theme of warframes won't. They want to play with the frame as originally intended.  Along the same lines of that sentinel suvivability starts to fall off well before the end of the starchart and with having helminth as a more endgame oriented system doesn't sit well with me as a solution to sentinel surivability because it's a solution that comes too late.

Vulps are actually more versatile than just panzer the one sly, I think it is? with it's evasion stat can massively boost the defensive abilities of the right frames and most importantly vulps just let you keep your utility mods with very little down time due to death. You don't have to run a tank to makes vulps work because they just come back.

To clarify, i am not saying running a tank is for survivability of the vulps. I am saying panzer is a good option because of the boost to dps it gives.

[quxier]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Zergmaster999 said:

*Glaring at operative defense*

You are doing it all the time ;)

2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Sentinel survivability is not an issue with high CC builds though. This is often neglected when people mention how squishy sentinels are. A strong CC build negates the squishiness of sentinels completely.

My meta equinox build, for example, has immense CC and I don't think my sentinel has ever been downed a single time let alone exhausted all of their revives while using Equinox.

Sentinel squishiness may be a valid topic of discussion for lower level players but at some point you realize how to keep them alive and the survivability thing becomes mostly irrelevant.

Sentinel squishiness is easily bypassed by: Invisibility, Slow, Chaos, Turbulence, Walls/bubbles, resonator/spectrorage etc.

Well, DUH, enemies that:

- are not moving

- are death

- are on other plains of existence (LImbo)

- cannot see you

don't posse a treat to you or your "little friend" (there are exception where enemy are almost not moving but still can hook you).

That's however is no-brainer. We shouldn't include those when we think about survivality of our companions.

I can survive a lot without those things but my sentinel, once I go to OPerator, are like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw6Zwop_blI

 

[Leqesai]

Just now, quxier said:

You are doing it all the time ;)

Well, DUH, enemies that:

- are not moving

- are death

- are on other plains of existence (LImbo)

- cannot see you

don't posse a treat to you or your "little friend" (there are exception where enemy are almost not moving but still can hook you).

That's however is no-brainer. We shouldn't include those when we think about survivality of our companions.

I can survive a lot without those things but my sentinel, once I go to OPerator, are like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw6Zwop_blI

 

My point is, the squishiness l of sentinels is not really an issue if you play smart. Running a no cc facetank setup is going to be problematic. Personally i dont think making sentinels tankier, invulnerable or infinitely revivable is a very smart decision. Companions need to be tankier because they get beat up more. Sentinels fill a different role so it makes sense to me that they are higher risk. 

Keeping sentinels alive is not that difficult. Basically sentinels work well for some loadouts and badly for others. Companions have a bigger benefit to tankier frames than ability-focused frames. Each has its niche and each fills it fine.

The game is piss easy and i dont want to see more hand holding. A little bit of planning can circumvent issues with sentinel survivability.

[quxier]

6 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

My point is, the squishiness l of sentinels is not really an issue if you play smart. Running a no cc facetank setup is going to be problematic. Personally i dont think making sentinels tankier, invulnerable or infinitely revivable is a very smart decision. Companions need to be tankier because they get beat up more. Sentinels fill a different role so it makes sense to me that they are higher risk. 

Keeping sentinels alive is not that difficult. Basically sentinels work well for some loadouts and badly for others. Companions have a bigger benefit to tankier frames than ability-focused frames. Each has its niche and each fills it fine.

The game is piss easy and i dont want to see more hand holding. A little bit of planning can circumvent issues with sentinel survivability.

I'm using Carrier prime for ~99% of my needs. I'm using it for:

- ammo

- looting (destroying stuffs, vacuum)

- hp regen (on wall jumps)

I consider those things very important or essential. Game doesn't provide many good alternatives that works with all frames. I don't want get forced to use only melee If I have forgotten ammo Pizzas. Same with all "press X to pick" OR "touch to pick" things. At least Vacuum is universal, afair. And HP regen... what I'm going to do if I don't have options to regenerate? Wish that I won't get hit by some hp-proc (toxin afair) or H.Gunner?

I don't want to babysit a thing that provides such important things. Companion being immortal is ok for me. If you could provide those things without interfering with my frames/weapons then I could work with non-immortal companions. It still would require some changes... probably.

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

I'm using Carrier prime for ~99% of my needs. I'm using it for:

- ammo

- looting (destroying stuffs, vacuum)

- hp regen (on wall jumps)

I consider those things very important or essential. Game doesn't provide many good alternatives that works with all frames. I don't want get forced to use only melee If I have forgotten ammo Pizzas. Same with all "press X to pick" OR "touch to pick" things. At least Vacuum is universal, afair. And HP regen... what I'm going to do if I don't have options to regenerate? Wish that I won't get hit by some hp-proc (toxin afair) or H.Gunner?

I don't want to babysit a thing that provides such important things. Companion being immortal is ok for me. If you could provide those things without interfering with my frames/weapons then I could work with non-immortal companions. It still would require some changes... probably.

I hear you and I think the risk-reward of using Carrier on all missions is related to whether or not it is most-efficient to use a sentinel if using a frame that is not ideal for negating squishiness of sentinels. It is one of the -few- things in the game that evokes a modicum of intelligence on the side of the player and I really don't think it is appropriate to make sentinels as easy to maintain as companions. I'm pretty sick of seeing these kind of threads that equate to "the game is too hard please make it easier" when literally nothing in the game has any challenge once you've reached a certain skill/equipment threshold. I don't think boosting sentinels is a solution when there are already solutions available ingame to circumvent the problem.

[Drasiel]

12 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I hear you and I think the risk-reward of using Carrier on all missions is related to whether or not it is most-efficient to use a sentinel if using a frame that is not ideal for negating squishiness of sentinels. It is one of the -few- things in the game that evokes a modicum of intelligence on the side of the player and I really don't think it is appropriate to make sentinels as easy to maintain as companions. I'm pretty sick of seeing these kind of threads that equate to "the game is too hard please make it easier" when literally nothing in the game has any challenge once you've reached a certain skill/equipment threshold. I don't think boosting sentinels is a solution when there are already solutions available ingame to circumvent the problem.

The solutions suck.

• Play CC frames only if you want a sentinel.
• Play protea only with her augment, or throw protea's dispensory and augment on every frame you want to play with a sentinel
• Use only djinn because it revives.

These aren't solutions that require skill or much thought it's a gear and time check only. These are extremely narrow build choices just to be able to use an entire category of objects at, not even endgame, mid-high level of the game.

There aren't many games that allow you to have pets but most of them allow you an option to revive them quickly and easily or alternatively offer a cooldown system for them to be re-summoned or revived. Torchlight series, any summoner build in any ARPG in existence, even diablo 2 let you portal to town and spend cash to get your buddy back instantly at any time even while fighting a boss.

Warframe is weird in how it treats sentinels but I think it's more a factor of age than anything else. The game has gone to higher level, with way more aoe, and while warframes defenses have evolved and pet's came late enough to the party to have way more survivability sentinels have been left to languish with pretty much the exact same stats as U7 while the game has moved on. Even newer sentinels are hamstrung by their mods and stats being outdated compared to current content.

[sunderthefirmament]

8 hours ago, TheSixOfDiamonds said:

I just stopped caring, for some reasons OP mentioned. As dumb as my Kubrow can be, for the moment it's easier to just run a melee build and Primed Pack Leader and not worry about it. Or if I want a weapons platform, bring a MOA.

Kind of off topic, but melee weapons do so much damage (and will continue to do so even after tomorrow's nerfs) that Pack Leader is plenty.  Primed Pack Leader is a waste of capacity.  But if you like it, by all means use it!  I just know that mod space is tight on beasts.

[TheSixOfDiamonds]

5 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Kind of off topic, but melee weapons do so much damage (and will continue to do so even after tomorrow's nerfs) that Pack Leader is plenty.  Primed Pack Leader is a waste of capacity.  But if you like it, by all means use it!  I just know that mod space is tight on beasts.

I don't actually think I run it on the one pet that would benefit "most" from it (but with the incoming Loyalty axe, it'll soon not matter). I have it on 0 space dogs, but i have it on my utility space cat. For reasons unknown.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

9 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Ocylus (spelling)

Oculus is pretty good for use in fishing as well. Its loot detector though, that mod can be deleted from the game.

[Leqesai]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Oculus is pretty good for use in fishing as well. Its loot detector though, that mod can be deleted from the game.

Scan matter is the best mod ever (the one you're refering to, I imagine).

Jokes aside... I don't really get why it exists either. I haven't used it much but I don't think highlighting resource containers is that useful.