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Update 30.5: Melee & Primary Balance Changes Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)


[DE]CoreyOnline

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25 minutes ago, CalamitousPrime said:

The Iron Staff is garbage. 

 

DE listen, before and even after he melee nerfs the iron staff has always been the absolute worst melee weapon. Its an exalted yet I would probably say I could make a Skana better than this piece of garbage .

 

It deserves better man. People actually subsume to get rid of the iron staff sometimes because its so bad. Ive poured some forma into it and cannot understand how this hasnt been discussed more. 

 

Buff it please. It needs it .

Maybe you aren't building it right? It works just fine for me.

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23 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Correction: They weren't the same mod. But they are now.

 

3 hours ago, -Augustus- said:

The real question is WTF would you take up two mod slots for attack speed, when there's arcane strike, warcry, wisp specters, etc. Until discovering glaives I farmed SP survival for hours at a time by pretty much just spamming E with a CO/BR/WW polearm. Attack speed mods of any kind lowered my DPS 100% of the time because that was a slot that could have held a riven, or a CD mod or a primed smite. Unless you're using a macro, none of this stuff matters.

i did cuz it was  just an old build that i liked for the slow weapon i use and now the weapon sucks cuz it is just too slow with out the build and as i said im an old player and i have no idea what new builds are out for melee and also dont care making it the same mod is silly as most people most likely didnt even use both like i did

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5 hours ago, kyse said:

as i said im an old player and i have no idea what new builds are out for melee

Drop in primed fury plus anything else you feel like for the new extra slot, slot in Arcane Strike if you want even more speed, and get on with life. Berserker fury's on-kill condition means it may as well be endo fodder.

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the main purpose of the Gun Arcanes aside, you've basically added another Mod Slot with certain non direct Damage Stats. i wasn't expecting that, but i'll enjoy that and take it, thanks.
free Stats for all of our Guns, even if the acquisition method is kinda convoluted.

 

the new Gun Mods are a nice step towards creating more interactive Mods, i approve of finally starting to go this direction in a meaningful way. past Mods like most of the Shadow Debt Mods failed at that by the activation method being too simple and too binary, and also most of the Mods were just straight up not good anyways. some of the Set Mods achieve the activeness desired, but a lot of them............. don't.

Guns also didn't really need the extra stuff anyways so i'm not all that concerned about the acquisition taking some time. i see it as optional extra stuff.
ultimately trying to "perfectly balance each and every Weapon" is neither here nor there - it doesn't really matter. just create stuff we can put on our Weapons to support different styles, and as long as those Mods/whatever is effective enough, we'll be able to make any Weapons fully functional in any of the games' content. and that's all that's really needed.
though that will necessitate backing off on some Enemies ignoring Game Mechanics, since that directly makes some Weapons useless in some parts of the game. that hurts Weapon usage diversity by, well, forcing people to not use certain Weapons. which is the opposite of diverse choices.

 

however. having to play Arbitrations for a century to get a major amount of this new stuff..... at first this wasn't going to be in Arbitrations and instead Steel Path. but you moved it.
i hate playing Arbitrations they're really boring. it's just a one life version of the same Missions, it's not any more interesting than playing a generic Mission. and it entirely focuses around just Damage and EHP, making everything else basically irrelevant. it's just a boring Gamemode.
Steel Path isn't very exciting either, it's also just a mildly different version of the same generic Missions. but it's less restrictive, i can use whatever i feel like or enjoy using as long as i complete the Mission, so it's far, far more enjoyable to me.
why does this stuff have to be only in Arbitrations? why can't it be in multiple places. like, idunno, both Arbitrations and Steel Path. or something. it's fine to be in Arbitrations i guess, i'd just..... like to play something else. 

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Melee changes:

The changes to Blood Rush make perfect sense and it all lines up just fine. No complaints there. The problem is in the changes to condition overload paired with the undocumented follow-through changes.

At higher level enemies just no longer die to melee unless it's a heavy attack build. Even when adding in more crit mods, it's just not enough; the limit of 3 statuses on condition overload is too harsh, maybe make it 5 or 6. The follow-through changes also add salt on the wounds (making me weep) because what little damage is left is also diminished over crowds. 

Primaries and secondaries:

I initially thought getting all the mods would be a bit painful but all it took was about 4 misisons with boosters to get all of them so that's really nice. Having to do roughly 8 missions for all the mods with no boosters to get all the mods seems fair. Great work on that.

The extra crit chance mods are situational at best. There's very rarely a build that would want to use them could use some better stats, the other mods are all good though.

The new arcanes are annoying to get (not hard, annoying) because many times there's alerts for some missions like exterminates or even some defenses are too short and don't give acolytes enough time to spawn OR WORSE, they spawn as you're about to extract.
Maybe adjust acolyte spawn a bit.

The bonuses given by the arcanes and also the timers and how they can also ramp down are all great across the board.

All these stacks encourage using primaries and secondaries and I can see people willing to give up their stacks because they are relatively easy to recover and maintain. The problem is that now melee has the harder to maintain and recover stacks. The Dexterity arcanes will help a bit with that problem but melee needs to have its stacks behave more like those in primary and secondary, that is to say: easy enough to aquire and maintain so that dropping them doesn't feel like the weapon is worthless (talking strictly about non-heavy attack focused builds - those can get by just fine).
Asking for 220 hits with a weapon that does less and less damage while going through a crowd suddenly feels like a lot compared to getting 12 kills. 


The elephant in the room:

I've failed to mention that all my successful runs using the new mods and arcanes has been done with weapons that do Area damage and as such, getting multiple kills in a short time span is not only possible, it's sometimes innevitable.

Any single target gun simply cannot compete with this. All that the new mods and arcanes have actually accomplished is to simply widen the gap between meta and off-meta weapons. We have bows, sniper rifles, assault rifles and... whatever the paracyst is supposed to be that just cannot compete with something like a Tonkor. All these single target weapons need some means to do area damage if they are to be used at all.

 

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1 hour ago, Rage_Inducer said:

At higher level enemies just no longer die to melee unless it's a heavy attack build. Even when adding in more crit mods, it's just not enough; the limit of 3 statuses on condition overload is too harsh, maybe make it 5 or 6.

There is no such limit. You feeling like there is, merely placebo from a typo-driven misunderstanding.

My dagger ramps up with the 3-8 stacks of element with which I usually prime Acolytes just the same as before, the difference between getting that extra priming layer (extra casts from Lavos or just a quick one-two proc and stab) is clearly noticeable.

Plus word-of-dev on one of the community streams stated explicitly no cap.

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hace 2 horas, TheLexiConArtist dijo:

There is no such limit. You feeling like there is, merely placebo from a typo-driven misunderstanding.

My dagger ramps up with the 3-8 stacks of element with which I usually prime Acolytes just the same as before, the difference between getting that extra priming layer (extra casts from Lavos or just a quick one-two proc and stab) is clearly noticeable.

Plus word-of-dev on one of the community streams stated explicitly no cap.

Must have missinterpreted what they meant with the 3 statuses, then.

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5 minutes ago, Rage_Inducer said:

Must have missinterpreted what they meant with the 3 statuses, then.

I believe the 'and' was just supposed to be 'at', thus "matches [the percentage of] PPP at 3 statuses". It was never capped 'originally' and its old-old multiplicative form was 4.1x at 3 statuses not closer to (1+2.4)x, so your guess is as good as mine what that phrase was referencing.

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20 hours ago, -Augustus- said:

Would a bit less charge on heavy attack be nice, sure. But not worth it anymore for something that consistently 1shots SoP hounds and makes 50M A0E damage numbers pop? Eh, maybe a bit overstated. 

I don't get this, I keep hearing it, but I've tried all the popular builds, and variations on them, and even with things like Chroma/Mirage etc, I don't hit anything like these numbers, is it still one of the better melee options and plenty viable, sure, though the extra charge time just feels bad compared to what it once was.... but I'm not seeing the craziness that people keep seeming to site anywhere.

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1 minute ago, Sylonus said:

I don't get this, I keep hearing it, but I've tried all the popular builds, and variations on them, and even with things like Chroma/Mirage etc, I don't hit anything like these numbers, is it still one of the better melee options and plenty viable, sure, though the extra charge time just feels bad compared to what it once was.... but I'm not seeing the craziness that people keep seeming to site anywhere.

Listing what's currently on my Chroma P (PSF/Steel Charge/PCont/NarrowMinded/BlindRage/Adaptation/full Umbral set/TransientFort/ArcEnerg/ArcGrace) and Glaive P (GTalon/PSmite/SacP/SacS/AmalOrgan/VolQRet/KillBlow/PFS/CorrCharge).

 

Tbf, 40M is by no means an average I'm seeing with these, but it's also not 'only when the cat buffs stack just right with full scorn and after sacrificing a goat'. It's less frequent than ~10M and much less ~1M, but it's fun when it pops. I'm a complete unga bunga melee spammer and didn't bother picking up glaives until after this most recent nerf, so can't compare, but it's pretty impressive when you aim and detonate with reasonable accuracy.

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I had the impression that players had fun with Melee 3.0 and that this is exactly how the devs wanted melee to be 2 years ago.

The actual task was to bring primaries and secondaries in range of melee again. You know, we have more challenging content than 2 years ago and players had fun. It was not the task to nerf melee and make entire melee weapon classes useless and at the same time mods totally unreliable (that is the case with berserker fury now -> a mod that will fail you in any boss fight where no trash enemies are around to keep the kill condition running -> this results in a ~41% damage loss against elite/boss enemies where many players could need any damage they can squeeze out of their weapons).

This melee nerf was unnecessary in first place... the task was to make guns useful in the game... not to mess up melee.

 

On a different topic... the new Arcanes drop from Steel Path Acolytes (if they appear because that currently is a hit or miss). On defense Steel Path missions these Acolytes spawn after ~5 minutes. Clearing 5 waves is done in 3-4 minutes. This in result means that Steel Path Incursions with Defense missions are over in 3-4 mins and Acolytes never get a chance to spawn because the mission automatically ends. This is a totally messed up mission design.

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30 minutes ago, -Augustus- said:

Listing what's currently on my Chroma P (PSF/Steel Charge/PCont/NarrowMinded/BlindRage/Adaptation/full Umbral set/TransientFort/ArcEnerg/ArcGrace) and Glaive P (GTalon/PSmite/SacP/SacS/AmalOrgan/VolQRet/KillBlow/PFS/CorrCharge).

 

Tbf, 40M is by no means an average I'm seeing with these, but it's also not 'only when the cat buffs stack just right with full scorn and after sacrificing a goat'. It's less frequent than ~10M and much less ~1M, but it's fun when it pops. I'm a complete unga bunga melee spammer and didn't bother picking up glaives until after this most recent nerf, so can't compare, but it's pretty impressive when you aim and detonate with reasonable accuracy.

Our builds are exceedingly close on chroma, looks like the only difference is I use Augur Secrets over TransFort, and I'm using Nourish Strike in place of the 1 for SP, though admittedly I don't generally use Chroma in SP, just saying even when I do sometimes, I don't really get these numbers ever.
http://prntscr.com/1al09to

Glaive builds are pretty close too, only change is the stance and using Vicious Frost instead of Psmite, because I'm too lazy to change my config depending on my faction, and the viral procs are pretty sweet on the forced slash proc.
http://prntscr.com/1al0p95

These difference should translate to slightly less top damage from your build if you're getting viral procs from elsewhere etc but I can't fathom how it could turn the range I see, which is basically anywhere from 1k~4M (depending on procs, buffs, target armor, etc) to the ranges I keep hearing.

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On 2021-07-09 at 1:06 AM, --END--Rikutatis said:

I mean, sure, there are a LOT of older, oudated, weaker, (specially single target) guns that can't handle those high level enemies fast enough, but there's also a lot that do. So people should at least specify what they are talking about. Saying guns in general can't handle high level content and that the new mods/arcanes didn't make them even more powerful is absolutely delusional. I hope DE doesn't listen to this nonsense too seriously. 

Man think about it, when people say that guns in general cannot handle high level content you should infer that it is because the majority of guns are those older, outdated, weaker (especially single target) guns. This is where many of the complaints stem from. I get that you may have tested out 9-12 weapons in the past week and came to the conclusion that you have, but I've gone through all 28 Primaries, 39 Secondaries, 3 Warframes and all 62 of my Melees and came to a different conclusion. Rifle like the Tiberon Prime were outperformed by a half modded Phantasma, my Akjagara Prime and Euphona Prime couldn't do S#&$ to compete with my Atomos, and all of my combo based weaponry slightly worse sure. Something else to bare in mind about why people are being so dramatic is just general frustration... with things like critical delay not being able to stack with point strike, the last second nerf to companion melee posted the day before SoP went live, as well as the unmentioned and undocumented universal follow-through nerfs, it doesn't exactly make DE look good.

Look man, it's a PVE game that never wasn't especially hard nor had a particularly high skill ceiling. You just took a weapon that you liked that had generally good stats it did the job you needed it to do. But with a good chunk of DE's design choices, more and more I'm being pushed away from the weapons I actually like and want to use because they don't get the job done on the whims of the developers making awkwardly implemented or just flat out poor decision, and that's hurting my enjoyment of the game, especially when the reasons given as to why were in a weak and poorly worded dev-workshop designed to pursue a state of balance in a that doesn't make a lot of sense for a PVE horde-slayer game. I'm noticing a lot of others sharing the same sentiment as I. I mean, sure I might come to like the newer stuff, but I also like a lot of that older stuff that sucks and would at least like it to be somewhat viable in todays game.

Exalted melee Warframes are the thing I personally find the most interesting and enjoyable in this game, Excalibur being my favourite Warframe. I'm a simple man, I like sharp pointy things. With the changes to CO brought in with Melee 2.9, it kinda killed him and any other exalted melee Warframe for me. Very quickly Exalted Blade and abilities like it very quickly and clearly became bad abilities compared to any mediocre melee build on any melee weapon that had at least 20% crit chance and status, and because of that I've lost most of my reason to keep playing him. Since then, I find myself just playing braindead with Chroma or playing Gauss when I wanna use my brain a little more. When I go back to Excalibur, or Valkyr, or Wukong it's so unsatisfying and irritating that I have no reason to use their 4th ability because my Zaw is simply superior.

In something like Diablo, Destiny, Payday, or Vermintide, the progression through the story and even some post-story content was more focused on mechanics and basic class progression than gear and build, then once you reach an "end-game" point, it didn't matter if you could clean out rooms, you just wanted to push the build as far as it could go and see if you could get to that next Torment level, or clean run the highest difficulty Chaos Wastes. In games like those, some builds were better than others, and some were meta because they performed best, that's just how it's gonna be, but nerfing them was scarcely done unless the build or ability trivialised the game. It was understood that hastily nerfing what was already established would hurt the game, but leaving a clearly unreasonably strong thing the way it was would also be bad for the game. 

Even then, developers of games can make good calls and bad calls when making or changing things, they aren't perfect at the end of the day and make different choices. The Diablo 3 team decided to nerf some stuff in the last couple seasons, and it turned a handful of Wizard players away from the game, and Destiny's seasons just got too repetitive for me personally, On the other hand Vermintide 2 has been adding some new classes that have powercreep'd some old stuff, but nothing got nerfed so the old stuff is still just as good as it used to be. In the case of DE, since Liches it has seemed like it's been a downward incline, and with some of the recent changes, I think DE has made another bad call. I've got sympathy for their circumstances, I understanding that making games is hard, but it feels like DE is asking for us to get where they're coming from and hasn't at all tried to understand us players.

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On 2021-07-08 at 4:17 PM, Zilotz said:

So it is time to give some feedback on those changes as they are in the game now, right?

Then first things first:

A) The problem: Gunplay is a bad alternative to melee and abilities.

A1) Gunplay is less convenient(you need to keep an eye on ammo pool so it constntluy gets interrupted more or less depending on a weapon, sometimes you are just out of ammo in seconds).

A2) Primary weapons are mostly underpowered for higher level content so they are inefficient.

A3) Secondaty weapons mostly are or weak enough or are melee-ranged. Also they mostly hit too few targets.

A4) Gunplay damage falls short very fast as enemy levels grow.

So we have 4 reasons already to not enjoy the gunplay ... without even looking at melee at all.

Mostly people prefer something both convenient and efficient, right?

Especially for things they use literally for hours and days and months.

B) The problem: Enemies and their problems(apply to both guns and melee but guns deal with them less efficiently)

B1) Enemies quickly become bullet sponges

B2) Some enemies have damage gating, damage mitigation and resistances that grow to crazy amounts as levels grow.

B2.1) NOX - unless weakpoint is it it has over 99.9% damage reduction(no matter how hard you hit damage never goes over 300).

B2.2) Stalker - has building up damage type resistance that can be removed only with operator or specific melee(if you do not use Xaku at the moment).

B2.3) Juggernaut  - has insane damage resistance unless you are hitting a weak spot.

B2.4) Deimos enemies that have innate immunity to Viral effect and some of them have insane armor adding to a big health pool and extreme amounts of damage.

B2.5) Stalker's helpers - adding to their huge damage they are resistant to status stacks, have shields and armor and completely ignore most of abilities including invisibilty(which i consider more a bug than something that should be intended).

B2.6) Troublemakes: Nullies, Combas, Scrambuses, Drones(especially Arbitration Drones), Ancients, Juggernauts, all kind of energy leeches/parasites/magnetic enemies. As levels grow they literally flood the area and killing them first becomes impossible as they are like 20% of enemies and are literally everywhere.

B3) Enemy amounts and time to kill - in all endless missions amounts of enemies are big and you need to kill them fast.

So combining A and B we already have a huge disadvantage of gunplay that explains why it is not as popular as melee or abilities.

C) What guns do lack in mods and functionality

C1) Armor strip (Shattering Impact)

C2) Health restore(Life Strike)

C3) Combos and combo mods

C4) Consistent damage output(because of reload/ammo)

C5) AoE or fast killing for most of them

So how to fix that?

1) Add Pax Charge option for evety weapon and even boost it by significantry reduciing charge delay. (Fixes C4 and partially A1)

2) Add new mods/arcanes for both primary/secondary/archguns to give alternatives to Shattering Impact and Life Strike (C1 C2)

2) Add combo systems and mod sets for primary/secondary (C3)

3) Boost the damage numbers for guns so they will not fall short so fast, add more punch thru and AoE(C5 A4)

4) Undo melee nerfs as they do not make guns any good as well as mods/arcanes that work from "on kill" condition.

I think that your multivariate analysis of guns and their underperformance compared to melee has highlighted most, if not all, of the key factors behind their incapability, though I think your proposed solutions are a bit awkward (e.g. adding arcanes to give us shattering impact and life strike for guns).

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17 hours ago, Rage_Inducer said:

Must have missinterpreted what they meant with the 3 statuses, then.

You were not alone in reading it as capped at 3. Could only be read another way if you assumed bad wording.
I really hoped it would get 3-capped (at 120) or 4capped (at 80-90), since that would really do us all a huge favour in the long run.

Now it is the same old mess. It is a must have. It forces a must-pile-status S#&$ty way to play.
I you think realistically about it, some might call it cynically, it makes sense. For the simple reason that it would mean more work if they did. DR might actually have to get toned down. Oh no, having to do a little bit more than adjust a single number in a mod, how will they manage.

But just take it for what it is. Another damning proof that they .... on forums. We talked about this very thing in 'the divide'. It would be a huge gain for the game, but nothing on the forum one way or the other to clarify. How literal a "don't care" can it get?

And now I see that we have to get it secondhand, by someone who says they heard it on a stream, that it is not capped.
There you have it folks. Practically being told to get a twitch/youtube downloader and waste your time combing through videos in search of scraps of info. Wasting the time of tens of thousands of people, instead of doing a simple update to the post here on the forum.

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To not waste a salty moment...

Same reason sisters have wacky DR. Lazy, shortsigthed DE.
A dumdum got reports that Voidrig could turn them into greasy stains nice and fast. What to do, what to do. RAMP UP THE DAMAGE GATING.

Yeah, let's entirely avoid thinking about that for a moment, let's completely ignore the possibility of not having mechs in RJ missions.
Why do we have mechs there? Because Orphix.
But, could they just not be limited to Orphix nodes you may ask? Ah, but naive padawan, this is DE we are talking about. So instead RJ is allowed in all corpus RJ, because surely that would not come back to bite them in the a s s.
Fast forward, sisters are in corpus RJ with mechs. What to do, what to do, we must never do any change that might result in a 'we told you so",....

and so, here we are. Damage gating has been ramped up, mechs as still here, DE maintains radio silence, twisting themselves silly to avoid doing what even kids can point out.
The emperor has no clothes...

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8 hours ago, (PSN)Joshua_Badhan said:

Rifle like the Tiberon Prime were outperformed by a half modded Phantasma, my Akjagara Prime and Euphona Prime couldn't do S#&$ to compete with my Atomos, and all of my combo based weaponry slightly worse sure.

While I don't disagree with what you said, I'm just going to call attention to the fact that both examples you used are of single target vs AoE weapons. I think the major issue here is single target vs AoE tbh. Even an old, somewhat outdated weapon like the Atomos (kuva nukor and tenet cycron do what it does, but better) still outperforms strong prime single target weapons like the euphona and akjagara you mentioned. Phantasma is an AoE weapon as well by all metrics, with infinite punch through against bodies, so same issue, That single target vs AoE is a real issue in the game, sadly I have no clue what could be done about that. If you pay attention to more recent weapons being released, even the single target ones are coming out with AoE alt fires or gimmicks to make them more desirable. 

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Hey DE, why is Valkyr unable to use Blood Rush with Hysteria? The original argument was that the mod was too strong. So what is the argument now that it has been nerfed twice already? I'm very pissed at Mesa being allowed to use the Galvanized mods with Peacemaker while Valkyr continues to rot like a putrid corpse. 

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I understand that your animations team doesn't like high attack speed because it blurs their hard work, but consider those of us who use weapons like gram prime. Running just berserker or primed fury still leaves you with a painfully slow attack speed. You need both to get anywhere close to reasonable attack speeds. I honestly wouldn't have complained about this, but with the nerfs to berserker, the 15% attack speed drop from primed fury to quickening is just too much. To get the full buff up, you need to kill 2 enemies with S#&$ty attack speed first. This may be fine for star chart missions and even sortie, but it gets pretty irritating in steel path, and more so in endless missions where you aren't always using just melee. 10 seconds is a pretty small amount of time, and pretty much requires that you be nonstop using your melee to maintain the buff (especially since you can't refresh it with crits). Also, ludicrous attack speed is still very easily attained through the use of warframe abilities, so your change doesn't really address high attack speed hiding animations.

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5 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

While I don't disagree with what you said, I'm just going to call attention to the fact that both examples you used are of single target vs AoE weapons. I think the major issue here is single target vs AoE tbh. Even an old, somewhat outdated weapon like the Atomos (kuva nukor and tenet cycron do what it does, but better) still outperforms strong prime single target weapons like the euphona and akjagara you mentioned. Phantasma is an AoE weapon as well by all metrics, with infinite punch through against bodies, so same issue, That single target vs AoE is a real issue in the game, sadly I have no clue what could be done about that. If you pay attention to more recent weapons being released, even the single target ones are coming out with AoE alt fires or gimmicks to make them more desirable. 

I'm glad you've picked up on that. I'm trying to popularise the notion of an aura like mod slot in weapons called something like "munitions" or "ballistics" which could address this issue by movings things like punch through mods into that slot whilst increasing mod capacity.

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The activation condition of these new mods and arcanes needs to be changed. It's hard to get kills outside of solo due to how "teammates" constantly nukes the room and the room after that and currently Melee still requires less effort to gain power compared to guns because they don't have complicated and impractical activation condition. Here are some my suggestions.

  • Change On Kill to On Hit
  • Change On Headshot kill to On Headshot

Stat gain can be adjusted to accomodate this change. However, the maximum effective stat gain should be left untouched.

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