Update 30.5: Melee & Primary Balance Changes Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)

[Alvengerz]

I've been using the Galvanized mods for a while now. They don't improve gun's performace that much. Only those with really high damage, hard hitting weapons, benefit from these mods (such as snipers). Auto-rifles, launchers, and most of the shotguns don't get the benefit because of the trigger condition.

Change the "On Headshot Kill" and the "On Kill" conditions to "On Headshot", "On Hit", or "On Critical Hit". Then most of the guns will get the performance improvements.

Edit: The nerf to Berserker (now Berserker Fury) is too much. this mod have no place in most of my melee builds anymore because of the "On Kill" condition. just revert it to "On Critical Hit" but with lower attack speed "%" value. Currenty installing Berserker Fury in Heavy Blades and other slow-swinging weapons are a big NO. That means this mod is mostly useless now. Doesn't this mod exist to improve such weapons?

[(PSN)Etheral_Synergy]

The melee systems didnt favour heavy weapons before and now its a bit more of a struggle. The combo system doesnt favour slow hitting weapons, condition overload doesnt favour slow hitting weapons unless you use a gun to proc status, even bezerker didnt really favour them before cause getting those first crits could take a few swings. 

Bezerker changes are fully justified in my opinion the fact you could get that buff that fast was insane and it may aswell just have been primed primed fury. I just feel like it was used as a band aid for heavy weapons before and now theres nothing in its place to push them up to match other weaponry especially for players without p fury. Just like how some mods like hemorrhage have an "if under x fire rate give x more of mod bonus" i feel melee mods need similar treatment, maybe also even just engrained in the combo system as slower weapons counting as double hits. My nami skyla are still shredding all content in this game just on that little peg lower but I cant say the same for my slower favorites.

Maybe make fury (and even quickening which is somehow better than non p fury despite having an additional stat and identical cost?) have increased benefit on slower weapons "+30% attack speed (+40% when base speed is below 1.00)", or similar to class specific mods like cautious shot, energised shot etc. on guns have an arbitration mod specifically for heavy blades and hammers which helps with these issues.

I still love my big swords with a passion but its just become a source of frustration where I'd just give in and switch to a dual sword for even just sortie content let alone steel path before this update hit let alone now.

[TheLexiConArtist]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Etheral_Synergy said:

maybe also even just engrained in the combo system as slower weapons counting as double hits. 

This (generally) already happens, heavy melee stances come with multiple combo count per strike up to something like 5?

5 hours ago, (PSN)Etheral_Synergy said:

Maybe make fury (and even quickening which is somehow better than non p fury despite having an additional stat and identical cost?) have increased benefit on slower weapons "+30% attack speed (+40% when base speed is below 1.00)", or similar to class specific mods like cautious shot, energised shot etc. on guns have an arbitration mod specifically for heavy blades and hammers which helps with these issues.

This however doesn't really work on account of the fact that the attack speed stat as presented in the arsenal is only meaningful in isolation to the weapon type (and also to a lesser extent, the stance) in question. Sadly, the biggest problem is in the stances themselves. Even daggers, despite being so 'natural fast' that 0.6 attack speed there is probably closer to a 1.2 heavy blade, still have instances of stance jank causing a full second of dead air in the middle of the combo, at the old 75% added Berserker speed.

But now here we are with waste of slot unreliable Berserker because we used it to get past the sluggish and janky stances and DE said stop building your melees for function over form, we made these stilted animations and by golly you're going to watch them!

[(PSN)Etheral_Synergy]

Just now, TheLexiConArtist said:

This however doesn't really work on account of the fact that the attack speed stat as presented in the arsenal is only meaningful in isolation to the weapon type

The more you know, always thought the numbers were a bit funky. L1 and still learning lmao.

[OP-R8R]

None of todays Steel Path Incursions spawned any Acolytes.

2x Exterminate in which the spawn is totally bugged and 3x Defense in which the spawn happens after +5 minutes while pretty much every team finishes these missions in 3-4 minutes (before the Acolytes even get a chance to spawn).

[CalamitousPrime]

On 2021-07-11 at 5:29 PM, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Maybe you aren't building it right? It works just fine for me.

It doesnt work at high level without using the nukor as a crutch tbh . And no, I forma'd it and put a full build. Its just not viable as an option. 

Believe me , if I thought it was strong I wouldnt post about it. 

Edit: spelling

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

Galv  Status/ damage stacks mods  are hard to fit.   We usually use elemental/status mods when we want status and or Hammershot that also gives crit damage.  

Sacrificing elemental types or crits for JUST status is not a good trade off.   Not for a +60-80% damage stack.  

You need to rethink what stats those mods should buff.  What mods usually get used in guns.  You cant touch elemental types because theres to many combos.  

That leaves  punch through, crit chance, Rate of Fire, Reloads or even Damage.

Use one of those as the main component to a galv mod.   

I'd like to see something like:

• +50% reload speed/  on kills  +50% damage stacking up to 4 times  (would replace serration mods)
• +Reloads/ on kill status chance +40%  (replacing elemental/stat mods for pure elementals) would be hard to fit but worth it
• +150% Damage/ +crit and status chance (weaker than serration but woud let you have better crit/status than point strike/dual stat elementals

----------------------

I use Ignis wraith a little while i was farming ambassador.  It was fun.  Mine has a riven and Galv chamber for tons of multi?   It felt so good to just hose down an area.   Thats the way all guns should work.

I think another awesome Galv mod stat to have would be bullet effeciency.   Lets us go nuts without having to reload.

• +whatever/  on kill Bullet Efficiency +25% stacks x4

[Deoxystp]

On 2021-07-11 at 8:23 AM, Reclaimer2448 said:

Feedback Report: Credit where due, and Sadness (Focused on Weapons)

Parazon
I agree 100%. This was something I used exclusively for Kuva Liches, and now can come in handy elsewhere. Still not something I go to town with, but has saved my "life" already.

Berserker
I mostly agree. +speed on kill was a smart move, and I'm not bothered by loosing that 5%. A 10 second duration feels a bit rushing, and only stacking twice feels like a really fast ramp up. It might feel more natural at +25% still stacking to 70% max with a 12s duration.

Blood Rush
I was a bit sad, but it was necessary. This is a good game balance decision. It's still effective enough to be fun, without totally breaking the game.

Condition Overload
Mostly same as Blood Rush. Alternatively, keeping +120% while adding a cap might work. But I think this works a little better.

Glaives
These aren't fun right now. Nerfed quick throw? Yes, that feels much more natural. 2x longer charge time? Awful. Slowing it down was a good approach, but this is overkill. The problem is simply reversed: instead of accidental throws, it's accidental melees. Even with both Killing Blow and Amalgam Organ Shatter, it just feels wrong and looses too much utility use. Like quick throw before reload. Not worth it anymore.
     I think an ideal fix would be moving the full charge time to a happy medium: 0.9s at base. Longer enough to not throw by accident, but without hurting the weapon beyond enjoyable use. Or alternatively, reset it to 0.6 and don't have the catch/throw (consecutive throw?) be twice as fast as a regular one. (They are faster, right? Because they definitely feel faster.)
     As an additional note, I think it would make things more interesting if the charged throw didn't do 2x dmg. It would be cool to see it instead do about 1.5x, but with more noticable crit and status bonuses. Or to have the quick throw be more crit friendly while the charge is status galore. But those are just some fun ideas. Everything but the charge throw time is fun as is.

Kuva Nukor
As before, I was a bit sad, but totally understand and agree with this as a game balancing decision. That thing was an insane powerhouse, and while it doesn't annihilate entire crowds the same, it's still enjoyable and useful.

Other Weapons (Sort of)
I'm already stuck on a lich because I can't Railjack to save my life, but the new Kuva weapons were good picks. It was quite exciting to see some of my favourite explodey toys now have a needlessly OP variant.

The Slow Crit Mods
Wait, really? These are better in every way! I can't imagine anyone complaining.

I agree with your thoughts on the glaive changes being overkill and making them feel clunky more then anything. 

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

I thought of some QoL suggestions for melee.

Melee is still good after the changes of course. But after guns got some love and melee got the opposite, I think it would be good to give melee some QoL after these changes without really impacting the maximum power of the mods changed. Because even though I think the mod changes did not Nerf melee's maximum potential unreasonably, it did highlight some unintuitive mod design. Meanwhile, the new gun designs are excellently designed.

So essentially what I mean by this is the all three of the melee mods that were changed (Berserker, Blood Rush, Condition Overload) are all entirely conditional and offer no upfront benefit to the user whatsoever. The galvanized mods however offer partial up front stats to user that are supplemented by lower stacking conditional bonuses. This is excellent design because the upfront benefit makes it more reasonable for these mods to replace the other static non-conditional mods in builds. I think this is how these 3 melee mods should work as well. So let me give you the suggestions that I would use to change these mods without impacting their maximum power (to avoid effectively reversing the nerfs).

Blood Rush

120% Critical Chance. 30% Critical Chance Stacks with Combo multiplier.

 

Berserker Fury

20% Attack Speed. 25% Attack Speed on Kill for 10 seconds. Stacks up to 2x.

 

Condition Overload

80% Melee Damage. 80% Melee Damage per status type affecting the target.

 

 

So as you can see, this doesn't affect the max power of these mods (too greatly at least) but makes them feel better to use by giving some benefit up front, with bonuses that reward playing to make the experience more rewarding (like how the galvanized mods currently work).

 

Blood Rush can take so long to scale up sometimes that giving some up front crit chance I think is totally fair, and decreases some of the damage FOMO of combo counter expiring (would also strongly suggest looking into a combo counter decay system at some point in the future. I think the instant expire has proven to be kind of unintuitive design wherever it has been used). Also anyone can run the math to see that this change would max out at the exact same 480% it does currently in game.

 

Berserker got hit way harder than I think it deserved. And I think that people are honestly starting to dumpster it right now. It's just too inconsistent, and expires too fast, and the conditions of it are just too restrictive. The mod also offers no benefit at base until you are able to kill an enemy, which makes you feel super slow and suddenly haults your DPS every time there is even a 10 second lull in the action. This change would still max at 70%, but 20% up front speed is more reasonable, and makes each subsequent stack actually smaller.

 

Condition Overload is where I have been a bit more generous, but I think it needs it to become relevant in most builds. Keep in mind, this mod has to compete directly with Primed Pressure Point! So recently nerfing to 80% and still offering Zero up front benefit is kind of a non-starter in a lot of cases. You pretty much need status primer guns to make this relevant now. And Melee doesn't have the status stacking potential of guns, lacking Multishot and the Fire Rate of guns. Also CO type effects are one of the most interesting mechanics in game right now. So guns gaining this effect and melee essentially losing it has already made melee much less interesting. With my change, 80% upfront Damage is still pretty low, but should tide the user over until the 1st status, yielding 160% (relatively congruent with Primed pressure point). Then the mod can begin to justify its use beyond that point.

 

I think changes like these are reasonable and positive. And I don't think they undo any nerfs too seriously or anything. And if they did, number changes could obviously be made. After all, I'm just random guy with random suggestions #4627. I just hope maybe these types of suggestions help and are actually listened to.

[Thanzilla]

I am trying to get my melee weapons' combo counter up but all the other players just use explosive weapons that instakill everything before i can get to them even in steel path. How am i supposed to get x12 combo multi when there are no enemies anywhere i can reach?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

The merciless mods duration is too short. It makes me feel restricted to use gun and only use gun because if I want to switch and use melee I’m going to loss half the damage I built up. Contrast that with the other 2 arcanes that have a significantly longer duration and I question why I’m even using Merciless.

[Lakyus]

I'll be honest with you, the new changes made the meta even more consistent.

• Berserker's Fury is a pain to use. Just make it stack with successful hits or Combo instead. Also, Quickening exists.
• Stronger melee weapons continue to be the stronger, same for most guns. The guns hit harder now due to the Galvanized Mods being mandatory (which is a issue in my opinion).
• Single target weapons still suck. The ones that benefit from the Deadhead arcanes most are single target weapons that have an area effect of sorts (Chakkhurr, etc).
• Do not increase numbers on mods. Increase base weapon stats and lower mods to low values like +30%.

Thanks for the update. See you at Tennocon!

[OP-R8R]

Crossfire Steel Path Incursions also do not spawn Acolytes (really great@DE)

[DrivaMain]

I would also like for the +Crit chance galvanized "scope" mods and the regular scope mods to not give crit chance ONLY while aiming. The crit chance bonus should be at all time wether you are aiming or not. Aiming decreases mobility and field of view which I do not like and exposed the player to lots of punishment.

[TheLexiConArtist]

18 hours ago, OP-R8R said:

Crossfire Steel Path Incursions also do not spawn Acolytes (really great@DE)

(+other complaints of no-spawn) I have had an acolyte in every single incursion I have run since the update (except Archwing and Assassination, naturally.)

 

Assuming you all are giving them proper capability to spawn (letting the timer elapse from steady killing) then I have to wonder what you're doing wrong. Are you playing squad or solo? If in squads, is everyone getting to kill some stuff, or is someone getting left in the dust?

I rarely do my Incursions in squad except by accident after a relic run or somesuch, but I seem to remember in one instance some time ago, I was in a squad and the triggering kill seemed to be tied to a specific individual in the squad getting it. Everyone else was rooms away getting multiple kills, but the lights only flickered when a stray enemy finally found its way to the one player waiting off on their own.

Could be coincidental, but if it isn't, this might explain why people are experiencing missed spawns?

[Reclaimer2448]

On 2021-07-14 at 11:34 PM, Deoxystp said:

I agree with your thoughts on the glaive changes being overkill and making them feel clunky more then anything. 

Well on the bright side, their disposition will probably be going up if DE sticks with the changes. Speaking of, I got a new idea that would allow it's charge time to not be trash and eliminate accidental throws. They said they the hold and release mechanic was causing issues, right? Because even a tap is technically a very short hold followed by a release. What if instead, pressing the fire input while holding the melee button threw the glaive right then and there? Not only would that mean no accidental throws right after you catch it, but it would allow players to perform a quick throw quickly! Like, Dark Sector quickly.

And maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here, but it could also be an opportunity to bring back the timing element. Maybe keep the charge time of 1.2, but have that sweet spot for charged throw in the middle. Idk how other fans felt about that, but I personally loved it. It felt so rewarding when you nailed the timeing, and got an insanely powerful throw. And by requiring a timing element, it demands more focus. This makes it harder to zone out during a long grind.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

Summary: Please add a Galvanized Serration/Hornet mod with "Punch Through on kill" to help single target guns.

So, while guns are definitely stronger now, the majority of them are still underpowered due to not being able to hit more than one enemy at a time, compared to AoE weapons and melee (which are basically AoE centered near yourself). Simply increasing the damage of single-target guns won't solve this - they need to be able to hit more than one enemy at once. Punch-through allows this, but there's little to no room in most builds for this, and it's often too short to make the weapon competitive. With all that in mind, I propose a Galvanized mod each for primary and secondary weapons like the following (numbers not final):

Galvanized Serration
+145% damage.
On kill: +1.5 Punch Through for 10s. Stacks up to 4x.

Less single-target damage while allowing you to hit enemies in a longer line after a few kills, making it a line-shaped AoE. This mod could either be allowed or disable for AoE weapons, because seeing as the AoE typically only triggers after the weapon shot runs out of Punch Through, I imagine it wouldn't be a noteworthy buff for them, particularly since it can sometimes make the AoE miss altogether.

Would such a mod solve the problem? Speaking as someone who has a Convectrix Riven with +4.5 Punch Through, I can say from experience that it definitely helps the weapon a ton.

[ligonare]

Galvanized Scope & Crosshairs Rant

I tried to love them, but for their cost compared to the basic versions, they are simply not worth it. Putting aside the bug whereby the stacks decay all at once instead of 1 stack at a time, I try to be as objective as possible.

• The base +crit chance on headshot should be the same as the base version due to the huge disparity in drain. The 12 second for the 'on headshot' condition is fine. 
• On headshot kill, fine. I don't mind direct dmg kills. But a measly +40%? I'll take at least 50% at least if I keep focusing on the heads of enemies.
• The worst offender: ON headshot kills, stacks last for 12 SECONDS. Who balanced this? The other galvanized mods offer 20 seconds on kills, this one takes more effort to get 12 seconds per stack.

Recommendations

• On headshot kills, +40% crit chance per stack to max of 5 --> 50% crit chance per stack to max of 4 (I wouldn't mind if you increased it to max of 6 either)
• Stack duration from 12 seconds to 20 second minimum

And please, fix the decay bug. 

[AgasKahn]

hace 29 minutos, ligonare dijo:

Recommendations

• On headshot kills, +40% crit chance per stack to max of 5 --> 50% crit chance per stack to max of 4 (I wouldn't mind if you increased it to max of 6 either)
• Stack duration from 12 seconds to 20 second minimum

And please, fix the decay bug. 

To say that critical weapons only benefit from death from headshots is a mistake

therefore, making a mod that is activated by this trigger is still a mistake

You are leaving aside the weapons that use states in conjunction with critics, or the missions that there are bosses, which do not activate this buff
not to mention warframes habilities

it is a complete error where it is analyzed

It is something that I had to emphasize, sorry

As long as that remains unchanged, he's going to remain a puny mod

anyone use "bladed rounds"?

and so everything, this mod was activated by any kill

[OP-R8R]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

(+other complaints of no-spawn) I have had an acolyte in every single incursion I have run since the update (except Archwing and Assassination, naturally.)

 

Assuming you all are giving them proper capability to spawn (letting the timer elapse from steady killing) then I have to wonder what you're doing wrong. Are you playing squad or solo? If in squads, is everyone getting to kill some stuff, or is someone getting left in the dust?

I rarely do my Incursions in squad except by accident after a relic run or somesuch, but I seem to remember in one instance some time ago, I was in a squad and the triggering kill seemed to be tied to a specific individual in the squad getting it. Everyone else was rooms away getting multiple kills, but the lights only flickered when a stray enemy finally found its way to the one player waiting off on their own.

Could be coincidental, but if it isn't, this might explain why people are experiencing missed spawns?

I am running public matches... so 4 players in a squad. The squads used to wait +10 minutes for the spawn. Nothing happened. Well, actually on the exterminate missions I noticed the flicker which happens when acolytes spawn twice but no acolyte appeared in the mission. I observed this in exterminate (steel path incursion) missions 4-5 times already and also had multiple conversations with other players which experienced exactly the same over and over again.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, OP-R8R said:

I am running public matches... so 4 players in a squad. The squads used to wait +10 minutes for the spawn. Nothing happened.

Well, actually on the exterminate missions I noticed the flicker which happens when acolytes spawn twice but no acolyte appeared in the mission. I observed this in exterminate (steel path incursion) missions 4-5 times already and also had multiple conversations with other players which experienced exactly the same over and over again.

Waiting around won't do anything for you if there's nothing left to die. Hence the stated assumption that the Acolyte timer delay is being consumed by a steady kill-credit. (This is what they meant by 'active play' - both the timer and the final spawn have kill-based activity gating.)

I don't know if they fixed the mission-state-change bugging out Acolyte spawns completely, but I've never had it occur on exterminate, only on Disruptions and Excavations. Otherwise, my only explanation for flickers going unanswered is if it's one of the other death squads/assassins and the hunted player didn't mention it, letting whatever it is get left behind wherever it spawned.

[Lokidus_Prime]

On 2021-07-07 at 7:54 PM, Maka.Bones said:

It's absolutely ridiculous that you removed the Helios & Deconstruction synergy for melee weapons. 

That was absolutely unecessary for any semblance of "balance" or even less for BUFFING PRIMARIES. 

please undo this, and let Helios / deconstuctor also work for buffing melee weapons. 

 

On a Side-Note, "Oversight" my arse. Quit trying to tell small lies, it just makes you guys look bad. If you want to do something this bad, just own up to it. 

This. And also allow the Hounds to use the set mods too, since they technically also have melee weapons, and would finally give us a companion alternative that can make use of this.

[Oatmeal_Crusader]

I've revisited my arsenal to find out the "buffs" that are supposed to put gunplay on par with melee is locked behind a tedious grind, why not do it like you did with melee 3.0 and revisit each gun and buff it individually according to its needs, it worked great for melee, it would have worked great here.

Now all we have are good guns that were good before that perform even better with the new mods, and bad guns that were just completely left behind because they can't properly make use of the new mods and their "on kill" condition 

[OP-R8R]

Am 16.7.2021 um 18:39 schrieb TheLexiConArtist:

Waiting around won't do anything for you if there's nothing left to die. Hence the stated assumption that the Acolyte timer delay is being consumed by a steady kill-credit. (This is what they meant by 'active play' - both the timer and the final spawn have kill-based activity gating.)

I don't know if they fixed the mission-state-change bugging out Acolyte spawns completely, but I've never had it occur on exterminate, only on Disruptions and Excavations. Otherwise, my only explanation for flickers going unanswered is if it's one of the other death squads/assassins and the hunted player didn't mention it, letting whatever it is get left behind wherever it spawned.

Well, since the update released I played every Incursion mission. Not a single of the exterminate spawned an Acolyte. It is also not that the team avoided killing enemies... after killing the requested amount there simply isn't really much spawning and it hardly can be the fault of the players that there are no enemies around anymore or that the threshold to spawn the Acolyte is set to an amount that the mission type is not even providing. That at best is a messed up mission design that DE needs to change. Same with the Defense missions where the Acolyte spawns after ~5 minutes... which is longer than majority of players/squads need to finish the mission. It can't be that I have to tell the team on every mission "slow down and wait with me for the Acolyte to spawn"... that's a totally idiotic mission design/balancing. DE has to fix that mess because it really is a problem in that area.

[Silvertap]

Melee:

Its is ok for me, i thought it would be stronger (what i didn't want to), so i am happy with how it is now.

Guns:

For the strong weapons it is fine, for the weak, it doesn't make much diference. Actually in higher lvls (SP) it won't change that much. Altought i didn't tested the arcanes yet to be honest, so it can be taken as a review just for the mods. Weak are stil weak, strong guns got stronger.

Personally, arcanes adapaters are expensive, because we have lots of guns. I would reather buy a BP, and have a few steel essence as material, also use vitus as an alternative (not one plus the other) material would be good too.