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Update 30.5: Melee & Primary Balance Changes Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)


[DE]CoreyOnline
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34 minutes ago, Genitive said:

Sure, I use builds similar to this: https://i.imgur.com/ndKPRjR.jpg

Even if you claim my builds are worthless and I know nothing about modding, the fact remains that having "on kill" on galvanized is unnecessary. I don't think we should fulfill additional conditions so that some guns can compete with melee (that we don't have to aim, reload, replenish ammo of, or perform the same tricks to benefit from similar mods). Weapons that struggle to kill will struggle to keep up the buff. I guess top-tier ones will benefit, but I was under the impression that these new mods were supposed to expand our usage of arsenal, not narrow it down.

Are you solo? Because with an octavia and harrow in your group, you should have no problem getting multiple kills. I get it, solo too, but are we building the game to let any single player just walk into anything unencumbered? The whole point is to synergize with your team. 

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I understand wanting to bring guns to par with melee and that they are not equal once you get to steel path, but there are a lot of problems with this approach.

Steel path is not interesting for a lot of people. and that's ok.
Steel path is not "bad" a lot of high level players do enjoy it and I'm glad it exists for them, but that's what it is, a high level playground for players who are interested in peak optimization and "meta" stuff. attempting to balance the entire game around what works in steel path will end poorly. 
Steel path doesn't really have new "content" in terms of accessable places, new enemies storylines, events, or characters, it just makes the numbers really big, and that's fine. In fact I think gating story, locations, weapons, new enemies, ect behind steel path would be a bad thing. It exists for players who are interested in maximization and optimization to have a playground where they are not only encouraged to do those things, but it is made necessary. Having this "divide" that seems to primarily exist in steel path, be addressed by nerfs to game wide stats seems like a bad direction to me.

The problem is when you try to take that arena made for the min-maxers and balance the entire game around them.  Nerfing melee does not help anyone. It will frustrate the min-maxers by taking away their favourite toys. it will frustrate people who aren't minmaxers who just like those mods becaue they will feel like they are being punished for the minmaxer's actions, and it won't help you get rid of there being a "meta" at high level play beacuse there is always going to be one. Melee specifically taking the hit makes this much worse.

Melee is the funnest part of combat gameplay wise in warframe. There isn't really very much argument about that.  It's amazingly done and incredibly satisfying, players are always going to gravitate towards it.  I don't know why players always switching between guns and melee is so important to DE, but since it is, adress the issue itself instead of nerfing the main reason people play the game.  Either make it so that the buffs to primaries and secondaries bridge the gap without nefing melee, or better yet...

There are mods already in existancethat reward you for switching between weapons frequently, why not make a series of them? Instead of taking away a lot of what crit melee builds good, and another build (more options than just crit and status, yay!) that rewards regular switching between weapon types by buffing extant mods that synergize with that and adding new ones.


Thank your for taking the time to read my thoughts DE, as well as anyone lese who got this far.

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7 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Are you solo? Because with an octavia and harrow in your group, you should have no problem getting multiple kills. I get it, solo too, but are we building the game to let any single player just walk into anything unencumbered? The whole point is to synergize with your team. 

I fail to understand your point here. When you add warframe abilities into the account, you can run without the new mods. Are you addressing the issue I have with them, or that guns generally need external assistance to be effective? I have a feeling we're talking about different things.

Also, the game has a solo mode. It stands to reason that if it is present in the game then solo players should expect some degree of effectiveness from their weapons without input from other players.

Finally, I don't want anyone to steamroll through any content. I want weapon classes to have similar performance. For melee, Condition Overload and Blood Rush give a significant damage boost; even after today's nerfs they are almost as effective. For guns, however, we need the new mods, arcanes, assistance from other players, etc., to achieve what these 2 melee mods do on their own. Something's not right here.

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25 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Are you solo? Because with an octavia and harrow in your group, you should have no problem getting multiple kills. I get it, solo too, but are we building the game to let any single player just walk into anything unencumbered? The whole point is to synergize with your team. 

Speaking of Trumna Ive tried that too - had no problem keeping LS  in SP almost maxed nuking the groups with altfire and it kills acolytels fine too. This weapon has one of the best dps. And new parason comes in handy to save time on reload

used this build tahl39g.jpeg

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46 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I dislike his other posts here but he is right, and DE said it themselves during the 2018 primary/secondary weapon pass.

They adjusted weapon MR based on their performance ballpark. This explicitly meant that weapon tiers exist and that an MR1 weapon is meant to be significantly weaker than an MR14 weapon.

If all the high MR weapons feel the same then that's an argument to add more high MR weapons that fill empty niches rather than asking for MR1 weapons to compete.

As in the very first Final Fantasy on the NES, initial weapons are not meant to compete with late game weapons. Tha'ts just the nature of progression in stats-based games. "Choice" is an illusion as long as stats are tiered.

And Rivens were added to make this not the case:

Quote

Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style. We’re all familiar with blazing through missions to the Extraction Point, but this system gives players new challenges that require them to test the creative limits of their Arsenal in their quest to Unveil their new Mods. Yes, meta weapons are in the selection pool, but Riven Mods are not needed to make this gear (like the Tonkor or Synoid Simulor) more powerful. What they can do is add an interesting buff to a comparatively underpowered weapon in order to encourage players to think outside of that meta box.

Rivens have obviously failed entirely in addressing this, but if you want to talk intentions then I think the intention is clear: all weapon should be able to be good, even old or underpowered ones. Tools, albeit poorly designed ones, were specifically added with that goal in mind.

In practice Warframe is more like CoD or Battlefield than WoW or Final Fantasy: when you get a gun it's yours forever and no other weapon will ever completely replicate it. You're not churning through dozens of new items a day going from green to blue to purple, chasing incrementally better stats... Every gun is its own unique thing. Even upgrade/sidegrade variants of the same weapon often have different mechanical, visual, or audible changes. So if someone likes the Stug or Talons or Vipers, then I see no reason whatsoever why they shouldn't be able to play a game with the toys they enjoy while still being reasonably effective. It isn't more fun to have less to play with.

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41 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I mean, this is a single target vs AoE issue, not a gun vs melee ones tbh (although by default all melees do AoE really well). There's absolutely nothing DE can do at this point to make single target worth it outside of niche boss fights like eidolons or demolysts. Even their newest single target weapons are coming with AoE gimmicks or alternate fires to make them usable (trumna for example, one of my favorite weapons ). The enemies are weak, we have years of power creep to one shot them with AoE weapons, why would we ever use single target ones in a horde shooter with dozens of mobs out at once every mission? That's a dilemma for DE to solve. 

The problem is that many AOE guns are better on damage numbers alone too, ie they kill single targets like acolytes much quicker and easier with few slash procs with no aim needed, while a rifle takes forever and requires good aim.  AoE should never be this strong to offset its multi-target damage, thus it would remain best choice only for low level missions but fall off at highlevel.  But DE never learned anything in 10 years, never learned from Tonkor being the sole dominant weapon in the game for years. It's hopeless. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Okay so, I just tested the Glaives changes and I have some things to say about it.

I actually see no difference. It's still possible to miss-throw mid-combo if you have the unfortunate chance of unvoluntarily pressing the button just a bit longer than needed near the end of an attack animation.

You only need to increase the time from when you press the button, to when it's possible to throw (as in, a slight delay before throw is possible after holding the button, which is in fact, already correctly done as of right now, it's just that it's not present when you are in the middle of a combo).

Next, is the actual Charged throw wind-up time, and I'm gonna be frank, this makes playing Glaives worse in my opinion.
To have to wait that long to use a Charged throw? It's too much. Warframe is a fast paced game; the slow, sluggish 1.2s charge time just breaks the rhythm. Chaining Charged throws is painful to look at because the animations are so slow. That speed also affects accuracy, in the sense where you'll be moving more to dodge incoming bullets, or aim gliding into a wall, and having the enemy move more by the time you engage the throw to when you release the Charged throw. I found myself missing most of my throws even though I'm a heavy Glaive-type player.

Sure, people will say "But you can decrease your Heavy attack wind-up time with mods" (namely Killing Blow and Amalgam Organ Shatter, iirc. With a value of 60% speed on each) but having to use a mod to counterbalance that is... not terrible in my opinion.

BUT! I have to admit that by using one(1) of these mods(so, 60% speed increase), the flow is actually quite nice:

- Wind-up time for Charged throws feels right: not too short not too long (again, in my opinion).
- There's still enough time for quick throws to be made.
- The delay at the beginning is perfect if you really don't want to throw by accident (only outisde of a combo... you can still miss-throw during a combo near the end of an animation).

EDIT: Throwing the glaive mid-air while falling without gliding is also awkward, as the delay(not wind-up speed) makes the floating charge effect also delayed.

Edited by Vannell
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I feel like I'm on crazy pills here. We didn't need to nerf melee and then go further to and design the the bulk of the "fix" around mods that not only punish people for equipping melee but also arcanes that don't even kick in unless you can kill something first.

I feel like this is so unbelievably simple to figure out. Like, you shouldn't even need special ed kindergarten levels of big brain to figure this out. Buff damage across the board for most, if not all Primaries and Secondaries, add punch through to most firearms, add something that allows firearms to bypass damage reduction or armor (maybe inside of their fallout?) or just reduce the mindless damage absorption of enemies and increase the quantity and speed of enemy spawns so roughly the same total HP or armor is on screen at the same time as before. 

IT'S. NOT. THAT. EFFING. HARD. 

IT. DOESN'T. HAVE. TO. BE. THIS. COMPLICATED. 

Am I the only one who feels like they have to question if they are the dumb one over how needlessly convoluted this entire "fix" is?

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37 minutes ago, Genitive said:

I fail to understand your point here. When you add warframe abilities into the account, you can run without the new mods. Are you addressing the issue I have with them, or that guns generally need external assistance to be effective? I have a feeling we're talking about different things.

Also, the game has a solo mode. It stands to reason that if it is present in the game then solo players should expect some degree of effectiveness from their weapons without input from other players.

Finally, I don't want anyone to steamroll through any content. I want weapon classes to have similar performance. For melee, Condition Overload and Blood Rush give a significant damage boost; even after today's nerfs they are almost as effective. For guns, however, we need the new mods, arcanes, assistance from other players, etc., to achieve what these 2 melee mods do on their own. Something's not right here.

Solo is always gonna be a setback. You can not fully make up for 2 to 3 players in your group when alone, even in a powercreeped game like this. You're always gonna miss out on a buff or debuff etc.

When you solo, you accept that it's all on you to make it work. Luckily, the game gives you many ways to circumvent this like revenants 1 augment, gauss, octavia, the helminth, debuffing etc.

3 minutes ago, Raso719 said:

I feel like I'm on crazy pills here. We didn't need to nerf melee and then go further to and design the the bulk of the "fix" around mods that not only punish people for equipping melee but also arcanes that don't even kick in unless you can kill something first.

I feel like this is so unbelievably simple to figure out. Like, you shouldn't even need special ed kindergarten levels of big brain to figure this out. Buff damage across the board for most, if not all Primaries and Secondaries, add punch through to most firearms, add something that allows firearms to bypass damage reduction or armor (maybe inside of their fallout?) or just reduce the mindless damage absorption of enemies and increase the quantity and speed of enemy spawns so roughly the same total HP or armor is on screen at the same time as before. 

IT'S. NOT. THAT. EFFING. HARD. 

IT. DOESN'T. HAVE. TO. BE. THIS. COMPLICATED. 

Am I the only one who feels like they have to question if they are the dumb one over how needlessly convoluted this entire "fix" is?

They're relying on the player actually knowing how to already do these things. 

Bypass damage reduction or armor? Ever heard of corrosive? Novas 4? Nezhas 2?

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42 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

And Rivens were added to make this not the case:

Rivens were added before the 2018 revision in which DE highlighted weapon tiers. This means that tiers supersede rivens or don't take rivens into account.

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1 minute ago, Raso719 said:

Right, I forgot we didn't have Nova or Nezhas before Sisters of Pravos. I'll have to check out those brand new, Never before seen Warframes. Where do you farm them? I've never heard of them before. They aren't in the patch notes. I'm sure those brand new warframes are a total game changer. If only we had them before this whole melee > firearm debacle.  

Many people already made this point. If you were really expecting to one shot steel path Mot with a Sybaris while solo for 2 hours, magically, after a single update....that's no one's fault for that person having unrealistic expectations. DE is clearly making an effort to release guns with better base status and crit. They've released a large handful of better pistols, assault rifles, and aoe weapons in the past year in a half. 

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These weapon Arcanes are 5 ranks each. Is that intended? I thought weapon Arcanes were 3 ranks and rank 5 Arcanes were reserved for Operators and Warframes because the ability to stack 2 sets was removed.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Many people already made this point. If you were really expecting to one shot steel path Mot with a Sybaris while solo for 2 hours, magically, after a single update....that's no one's fault for that person having unrealistic expectations. DE is clearly making an effort to release guns with better base status and crit. They've released a large handful of better pistols, assault rifles, and aoe weapons in the past year in a half. 

Nah, I just wanted more than like 8 firearms to be useful out to roughly the same point as melee weapons.

But you're right again, of course. It's just unreasonable to ask that properly modded weapons with comparable MR and froma investments play by the same rules and have their usefulness fall off around the same time in the same missions against the same enemies they were built to be effective against.  That's not in DE, that's on me for assuming melee weapons aren't in some special, magical super-weapon bracket. 

I also suppose since Primaries STILL CAN'T be modded to be useful up until the same point as melee weapons in most missions (since, A: you can't have both a Melee and a Primary at the same time if you want the Primary mods to be useful and; B: The Primary and Secondary mods needed to keep them in lock step just don't exist at all to begin with) that TECHNICALLY what I'm asking for something that just can't exist in the game as it is now.

Yup. I guess I'm the stupid one and the rest of you guys are all taking crazy pills to keep your galaxy brains running at maximum efficiency.  I stand corrected. I'll just keep spamming E+ 🔼+RMB  on my Kronen Prime or Sigma & Octantis like the game wants me to.

Hah! To think, I wanted more than 8 firearms to just be a useful as magis space sticks and magic space blades.... God, how could I have been so stupid?

Edited by Raso719
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5 minutes ago, Raso719 said:

Nah, I just wanted more than like 8 firearms to be useful out to roughly the same point as melee weapons.

But you're right again, of course. It's just unreasonable to ask that properly modded weapons with comparable MR and froma investments play by the same rules and have their usefulness fall off around the same time in the same missions against the same enemies they were built to be effective against.  That's not in DE, that's on me for assuming melee weapons aren't in some special, magical super-weapon bracket. 

I also suppose since Primaries STILL CAN'T be modded to be useful up until the same point as melee weapons in most missions (since, A: you can't have both a Melee and a Primary at the same time if you want the Primary mods to be useful and; B: The Primary and Secondary mods needed to keep them in lock step just don't exist at all to begin with) that TECHNICALLY what I'm asking for something that just can't exist in the game as it is now.

Yup. I guess I'm the stupid one and the rest of you guys are all taking crazy pills to keep your galaxy brains running at maximum efficiency.  I stand corrected. I'll just keep spamming E+ 🔼+RMB  on my Kronen Prime or Sigma & Octantis like the game wants me to.

Hah! To think, I wanted more than 8 firearms to just be a useful as magis space sticks and magic space blades.... God, how could I have been so stupid?

There are more than 8 weapons that are viable. Problem solved. 

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Going to be honest here...

 

Its bad. Really bad. We liked melee weapons cause we are space ninjas, if you nerf the melee just to make guns feel more special its kind of a step backwards from space ninja and turning it to be just space.

 

 

Also it ruined most of my builds. At least let berserk be usable like it was before so it can still actually be useful.

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I loved arum spinosa until you nerfed condition overload. Great....if your aim is to make mediocre weapons completely unplayable..

You cutted down by half or more the melees that could be worth using, trying to nerfing better ones that still will be "meta".

🤔

Dave - ps4 player with 1600hrs

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Just now, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

There are more than 8 weapons that are viable. Problem solved. 

I don't disbelieve, you, out of the 3 or so weapons I've tried since the patch I've found more that area still trash than there are that are still useful up to the same point as melee, though it is a tedious process since I have to keep launching the same mission with and without melee weapons equipped to really compare things. Regardless, however many firearms are actually useful for the same degree as melee actually is it needs to be much, much higher than what it is now. As it stands, many Primary and Secondaries, even the Primed variants have their usefulness fall off way before trash, low MR, non-primed melee weapons. I'm not saying they stop being good at that point, that's far after they stopped being good or okay. They functionally become worthless well past the point even below average melee is still "practical" to use. 

No one has ever asked to be able to oneshot a Steel Path LV400 Heavy Corrupted Gunner with a Bratton. They just want to be able to take out a single LV80 Elite Lancers with less than 2 and a half clips on Star Chart missions with most a properly modded assault rifle or SMG. That's all. No one was asking for their 8 Forma Sobek to be as powerful as a 2 Forma Pupacyst with Condition Overload and Weeping Wounds. They just wanted their 8 Forma Sobek to not be as utterly useless as an 8 Forma Sobek.

But that's all moot, isn't it? Because without DE doing something as utterly simple as just a raw buff to firearm damage numbers or some sort of innate punch through or armor bypassing mechanic it is clear that they they do not want firearms to be even slightly useful well before melee weapons stop being optimal, let alone before the point where melee weapons become almost useless. I mean, why else would they refuse to consider such simple fixes? Because they don't want to, that's why. They don't want a 4 Forma Sobek competing with a 2 Forma Skana or an 8 Forma Astilla Prime keeping up with the performance of a no forma Dragon Nikana. If they did, they would have deliberately made changes that reflected such.

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1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

Rivens were added before the 2018 revision in which DE highlighted weapon tiers. This means that tiers supersede rivens or don't take rivens into account.

Right, the idea that players should have a reason and a way to use old or underpowered weapons has existed for a long time. This has been a problem since well before 2018.

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Posted (edited)

DE didn’t really play test these “balance” changes. From my gameplay, I don’t feel encouraged to use primary or secondary. This is why DE needs to continue with using a Public Test Server, if they are unable to proper test their gameplay changes. But where I am furious is not mentioning all the melee nerfs until the day before the update goes live, this is such a EA level of scummy. DE please be more transparent with your future updates. 

Edited by GameyManatee3
Grammar check
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8 minutes ago, Raso719 said:

I don't disbelieve, you, out of the 3 or so weapons I've tried since the patch I've found more that area still trash than there are that are still useful up to the same point as melee, though it is a tedious process since I have to keep launching the same mission with and without melee weapons equipped to really compare things. Regardless, however many firearms are actually useful for the same degree as melee actually is it needs to be much, much higher than what it is now. As it stands, many Primary and Secondaries, even the Primed variants have their usefulness fall off way before trash, low MR, non-primed melee weapons. I'm not saying they stop being good at that point, that's far after they stopped being good or okay. They functionally become worthless well past the point even below average melee is still "practical" to use. 

No one has ever asked to be able to oneshot a Steel Path LV400 Heavy Corrupted Gunner with a Bratton. They just want to be able to take out a single LV80 Elite Lancers with less than 2 and a half clips on Star Chart missions with most a properly modded assault rifle or SMG. That's all. No one was asking for their 8 Forma Sobek to be as powerful as a 2 Forma Pupacyst with Condition Overload and Weeping Wounds. They just wanted their 8 Forma Sobek to not be as utterly useless as an 8 Forma Sobek.

But that's all moot, isn't it? Because without DE doing something as utterly simple as just a raw buff to firearm damage numbers or some sort of innate punch through or armor bypassing mechanic it is clear that they they do not want firearms to be even slightly useful well before melee weapons stop being optimal, let alone before the point where melee weapons become almost useless. I mean, why else would they refuse to consider such simple fixes? Because they don't want to, that's why. They don't want a 4 Forma Sobek competing with a 2 Forma Skana or an 8 Forma Astilla Prime keeping up with the performance of a no forma Dragon Nikana. If they did, they would have deliberately made changes that reflected such.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Elite_Lancer#Kuva_Elite_Lancer

Elite Lancers have an alloy upgrade. 

Have you tried a combination of radiation, corrosive or ability buff/debuff? Level 80 isn't really any threat. Don't forget the 2x head multi.

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Posted (edited)

I Try Galvanized mod Savvy Rank 0 using shotgun on my kuva drakgoon with hunter munition & Viral

its good just aim at head... Use Ensnare

I try level 115 heavy griner at Simulacrum

but never try in Steel Path...

Edited by MorkiePrime
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Tldr 

Melee is still king just weaker and you have to use top teir melee 

Viable guns do a bit more damge aoe guns are somewhat viable but single target weapons are still trash and overall its a net negative results 

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Posted (edited)

I have been telling you guys, DE, that this 'melee nerf, gun buff' thing won't work.

You guys already broken the initial promise of '10% nerf, 90% buff'. And you're STILL breaking them. Melee has been nerfed by 90% (no, not 40% overall damage reduction; you guys gutted the weapons in 'barely usable' tier saved by Berserker/CO combo. Are you guys happy now?), guns buffs only affects the usable 10%.

Is it really went as expected? People started using more guns? No. It only proves that guns won't ever catch to melee without more formas, because of stance mod bonus capacity.

You already have the greatest asset available to buff these guns WITHOUT THESE MODS AND ARCANES.  

 

What is it?

FREAKING RIVEN DISPOSITION.

 

JUST USE THOSE RIVEN DISPOSITION TO BUFF WEAPONS BASE STATS. THAT'S IT. END OF PROBLEM.

THAT WAY PEOPLE WILL USE UNDERWHELMING WEAPON WITH GREAT SYNERGY THAT'S HAMPERED BY THEIR ABILITY TO DO DAMAGE.

AND DON'T EFFING DARE TO NERF META WEAPONS STATS. THOSE WITH RIVEN DISPO OF 1 OR LOWER SHOULD NOT BE TOUCHED: IT MEANS THEIR BASE STATS ARE ALRIGHT, SINCE A LOT OF PEOPLE USES THEM.

 

Just my two cents.

Edited by (NSW)RATHURUE
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Raso719 said:

They just wanted their 8 Forma Sobek to not be as utterly useless as an 8 Forma Sobek.

What? Sobek is one of the most powerful weapons in the game, if you just take it along with an armor stripping frame. It became much better today with 200% crit chance in the corrupted mod and galvanized multishot. I just did a 30 min Steel Path test drive with it and Frost and it killed super fast, air support was barely a concern. I mean, you can call armor stripping a gimmick, but it's a core mechanic in the game. People just don't use it because they think bleed procs is the only way to play Warframe.

Edited by --END--Rikutatis
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Posted (edited)

Melee is good with only a few mods, and those mods are universal.  Even after this update, guns are only good after a huge investment, and most of that investment doesn't transfer between primary and secondary, or from rifle to shotgun, or even between individual weapons in the case of arcane adapters.  On the upside the farm doesn't seem too bad. If only steel path was fun to play.

Weakening melee mods seems like a good way to bring melee in line without worrying about individual weapon stats, and was a needed change.

What we really need is missions with fewer but stronger enemies, so single target weapons like rifles and snipers have a role.

Edited by 2ndPersonPlural
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