Jump to content

Update 30.5: Melee & Primary Balance Changes Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)


[DE]CoreyOnline
 Share

Recommended Posts

Current kills are defend highly on DoT just like bleeding, fire, poison.

But killed by DoT is not count as weapon itself's kill.

So I feel hard to stack buffs that triggered by kill.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Blood Rush has been nerfed yet Acolyte mods are still not available to exalted weapons.
The new Arcanes can't be put on or triggered by exalted guns.
Not all Galvanized mods can be put on exalted guns because some of them are also Acolyte mods.

Could we please stop making exalted gear inferior to the normal counterparts?

  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Undo all the melee changes. just add more mods like galvinized mods and primed galvinized mods etc cause we need more Conditions based mods that are better than regular mods like they have the same base effect as a regular mod but have conditions for additional effects. To make primary and secondary more viable your just making melee suck so the only option is ptimary/secondary it's like putting a bandaid on a dead guy thinking it's gonna fix the underlying problem. 

Edited by Stalker_says_hello
  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I'll be surprised if this update doesn't do it in for this game. The "slight" nerfs gutted all of the melee in the game, 3 status ramp up for Condition Overload to get a lousey bonus over PPP? Not to mention exalted are useless now compared to normal melee do to the completely sneaky removal of gladiator mods on deconstructor. Yes we noticed you snuck that in without saying. This gutted melee and I'm sure many long time players can relate its a slap in the face. Especially when I went from all of my Melee weapons being usable to only a few now. So much for arsenal diversity.  But hey I'm super happy about my 7 forma to fix my builds despite using over 150 forma on my melee alone. 

Edited by (XBOX)AFutureCorruptX
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been using the new Arcanes  and they are a HUGE help when it comes to scaling damage . Otherwise The New Mods Fall Short when it comes to Kill enemies on the steelPath.
  • I think What DE is trying to give us a little boost with the new mods, and let the Arcanes do Most of the Damage Scaling.

The Problem:

  1. Right now the "Little boost" Is Too LITTLE
  2. Why should we use Mods when we Arcanes are just better?
  3. Arcanes ALONE do a way better job at scaling than the New mods.
  4. New Mods dont make enough of an impact to make me Use Weapons instead of Frames/melee Weapons to Kill enemies instead.
New Mods + New Arcanes Viable

New Mods Alone Not  Viable

New Arcanes Alone Viable

Melee Scaling Viable but a little bit Slower (Slower = annoying)

Conclusion

Meta weapons Are now THE FEWS OPTIONS WE HAVE THAT MAKE KILLING IN STEEL PATH BEARABLE

Weapons with Arcanes make a Decent Attempt at Scaling but not enough to make All Weapons DECENT agaisnt Steel Path Enemies.

There is no reason for me to use the mods BECAUSE Melee Scaling is still FASTER, And Arcanes dont Take Space in my build.

 

Possible Solution:

  •  Change "on Kill" To "every 2° Shot Landed on an enemie" and make it stack a little more. Also Make Sure This Scales UP with Shot speed so More Shot Speed does not Equal to faster Scaling.
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You said

Quote

Our goal is to encourage you to use your entire Arsenal in-mission. Switching between Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapons should feel like valid and strategic options

But you've effectively done the opposite to anybody using duel wielding as intended. My standard loadout is designed around duel wielding a glaive and pistol, while using my primary for specific heavily armored enemies like heavy gunners, bombards, and napalms.

Changing the charge speed of glaives has severely hurt the flow of gameplay. Generally, the ones complaining about accidentally throwing the glaive because of too much speed, are the ones abusing melee speed mods, or have been affected by an outside power buff. 

At best, you've now punished the legitimate users for other peoples abuse. At worse, you've punished all glaive users unnecessarily. The simple fix here is to return charge speed to 0.6, and not have throw charge speeds affected by generic melee speed mods/buffs except for specific mods for that exact purpose.

 

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

(shameless copy/paste of my other post in this more relevant thread)

It's a surprise to everyone (except it isn't) that :

  • Melee is still king because nothing can compete with mashing one button with no downtime to clean dozen and dozen of enemies.
  • Galvanize Mods are useless in high-level content because on-kill stacks can't keep up with the killing rate of tanky targets with ranged weapons.
  • Sister Liches are a HUGE PAIN to farm because it's locked behind a tedious game mode, which itself is locked behind a currency tedious to obtain.
  • Parazon is still underutilized because nothing prevents us from mistakenly killing the target before reaching it. Oh wait, it's not a mistake, because why spending time to kill just one target when i can kill dozen and dozen ?

And for all of this : WE TOLD YOU SO !

Seriously, I don't understand how DE got so far off target … It has always been so obvious that ranged weapons can't compete with melee weapon. Trying to do that is just a waste of time and energy. And seriously : you don't have to make ranged on par with melee (damage wise). "Space Ninja", remember ? Jumping all over the place and swiftly use your blade to kill your targets, that's the game concept you are working on since the beginning. Why are you so focused on make them compete when you can make them complement each other ?

Look at the whole meta involving Condition Overload and the Kuva Nukor ? Is that so unhealthy ? Well yes, it sure is, because it involve just one mod and one weapon in the whole collection of mods and weapons. But isn't it a really good example of how ranged and melee can complement each other ? Why not embrace this meta ? It wouldn't be the first time. Do you remember that the whole Parkour system is born in response of the zorencopter meta back in the day ? Seriously, i'm still remember all the hype and the praise surrounding the game thank to this, because the devs understood what players wanted and successfully built a gameplay around that. And it was beautiful … [insert Thanos meme here]

Here, an idea, quickly : instead of all these unviable on-kill effects, why not scale ranged weapons with the combo counter ? The primary and secondary weapons cannot increase the counter (they could even deplete it), but could benefit from it. That alone would encourage players to switch between melee and ranged : one for close combat and refresh the meter, the other for ranged combat and all the pew pew and perks/status/gimmicks/etc that these weapons can bring.

I'm sure it's not the first time someone suggest this, and i'm also sure this kind of synergies between melee and ranged would be way more enjoyable. Ok, there is obviously some problem by relying on the combo counter (like the Xoris and his infinite combo duration, the combo counter would need a proper rework to include ranged weapons), but it's certainly a way better and healthier way to imagine the game than what has been done here …

Edited by Yulfan
Typo
  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Tangvaffel said:

Welp, I guess I'll never use Berserker or any other "On Kill" mod ever unless both duration and effect gets buffed by a lot.

I have to wonder who thought this was a good idea.

On the normal star map sure, but on the steel path, and bosses mods with " On Kill " effects are useless.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I somehow missed this particular kerfuffle/argument when the balance changes were workshopped, and I think this is kind of a step in the right direction, I think it's just trying to fix a symptom of a greater problem that I would argue merits its own thread - the mods system itself needs reworking. Again.

Here's the problem with the modding system as it stands right now, as far as I am concerned:

  1. There is too much focus on mods that are essentially direct upgrades rather than "modifications" to how a Warframe/Weapon/Etc. operates. This also easily confuses new players who tend to associate mod systems as sidegrading rather than upgrading, if you get my meaning. The arsenal interface doesn't help a lot, either.
  2. As a consequence of issue 1, there are a whole bunch of mods that tend to be either always mandatory, often essential for any build or used very often - any straight damage upgrade, crit mods, the very melee mods you guys just nerfed, and so on. This is usually more of an issue for weapons than Warframes, but it can still be an issue for frames as well, here and there. There are certain mods that are literally on every build there is, and at that point, why should those slots even exist since you might as well just bolt those stats onto the weapon to make it viable.
  3. The way the mod system works and the way the game scales high-difficulty content tends to push players towards very specific types of builds in order for a frame or a weapon to be actually viable, rather than encourage experimentation as the name of the system should imply.
  4. The way ranged weapons and melee work are completely different, especially considering the latter has a combo system that influences multiple stats on a melee weapon. As a result, balancing mods between ranged and melee is much, much more difficult, because there's more variables involved, more conditions.
  5. Also, you know, years of bloat and power creep, though that's a problem with a lot of Warframe's systems and content.

My personal conclusion: The mod system is unnecessarily unwieldy, is harder to balance than it should be, and doesn't encourage as much experimentation as it should. Also, there are too many "On Kill" mods, it's absurd, it scales a lot more on lower-level content than high level.

As a result, my personal recommendations for reworking the mods system would be:

  1. Take out the mods that directly increase stats and put most of that into a more straightforward points-based upgrade system. It would be easier for new players to understand and work towards, and it would also be much, much easier to manage, balance and scale.
  2. Rework the mod system towards playstyle adjustment rather than increasing DPS.

Even if you don't implement the above suggestions, I really emphasize that the way equipment is modded and upgraded as it stands now is unsustainable and needs a complete overhaul so the game's massive arsenal can be balanced and scaled more easily, newer players can more easily get into upgrading their arsenal, and can encourage more experimentation with builds.

Edited by CandescenceAria
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There should be one hit streak meter.  One combo multiplier.    Guns/melee/EXALTED should all contribute!!   Combo Duration mods and abilities (naramon power spike) should just talk about combo duration and not melee combo duration.  

The new agility arcane? that grants damage and combo when switching between guns and melee.   Keep the damage.   Change combo duration to an instantaneous +1 combo multiplier and let it break the normal max. (just by 1-2 levels).  

For example you melee stuff and get to x12(max),  You then switch and start shooting stuff.... If you have the agility arcane on your gun then you get a damage buff, but you also get +1 combo multi that can break the limit.   Letting you get to x13 on your gun.   That could be good as is,  or you could allow constant switching to maybe hit a new max of like x14-x15.  

----------------------

Galv mods are super ephemeral.   The buffs show up at the edge of the screen.  In a fight you cant sit there and look through all the numbers popping up to make sure the buffs are doing what they are suppose to do.  

I tried G Shot and G Diffusion on my new Tenet Cyclotron and I saw the buffs last well enough but I was on Saturn - Helene.   I couldnt really feel the power.   But on non-defense maps that 4-6 second duration is going to suck.  My melee combo can stay up the whole mission practically.  

I get why people are pissed about on-kills.  What they are really mad at is dropping their combo's lol.  

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Where to begin? I think I know where.

Glaives:
While I don't have a fondness for them, I did have a good amount of enjoyment using them as they could take up where melee, and most certainly my favorite type of primary  (shotguns) could not. Taking the fight to a hard enemy from far away quickly. Now, that charge time makes it almost impossible to do so, it feels too heavy and clunky. Go into a normal mission without a tanky or survival frame and you just can't use Glaives anymore. Maybe for Spy or Assassination, but Capture, Exterminate, Mobile Defense, Interception, Excavation, most other game modes are no longer viable.

Berserker:
This poor mod was basically bashed into the ground for little to no reason other than DE wanting people to see the animations. The two tagging combo that was put on it makes it to where it'd just be slightly better to put a primed fury on it. I can understand having one of the downsides, either less time or on kill, but having both doesn't make it worth while anymore to put on builds.

Blood Rush:
Melee really needs those combos and crits, without them they can barely hold a torch to guns. While the player can have easy combo, Blood Rush being nerfed makes it far more difficult to handle enemies that have a lot of health and or armor (example being the Nox). From 60% to 40%, while not seeming like a lot, is, in fact, a lot. That is a lot of potential crit chance being thrown out the window. Which means no build will be able to get red crits anymore with it, requiring very much important mod slots to even compete against it.

Condition Overload:
The Gava mod for shotgun savvy is just a spit in the face of all melee players after nerfing this one. While neither Blood Rush or Condition Overload suffered as much as poor Berserker, it still suffered enough that it is very noticeable.

Gladiator Mod Set On Companions:
DE's reasoning behind this is a total lie at best, and downright malicious at worst. There is no reason for them to have been disallowed onto melee weapons for companions and still help with the melee weapons of the player. That is the entire point behind gladiator armor and health, right? It's not attached to the melee weapon, but the Warframe, and still receives the buff. This alone has killed almost all melee builds. What makes it worse is that that DE won't touch the vigilante mod set for guns and didn't consider them to be "bugs" as they put for the Gladiator Mod Set. Now a lot of players will only bother using Helios for the scanning. No one in their right mind would use the new hounds for any other reason, as they don't give any half-decent buffs that could be considered worth while. 

Outcome:
The whole 10% nerf 90% buff was a complete and utter lie. I do not entirely mean to be mean, but this is becoming something of a habit for DE as of late. Lying. That and the relatively quiet Gladiator Mod nerf only shows that DE knows what they're doing is wrong and they're still doing it. In my honest opinion, it would be best to completely revert the nerfs to melee and just buff guns instead. Not only will this make the Melee players happy, but it will also help with the gun issue. Tearing something down just to build something else up is a horrible strategy, only making the issue worse instead of actively trying to fix it.

Thank you kindly for reading through this, I've played this game for around 3 years and I don't like the thought of this game dying via unfair or, as some would consider, idiotic changes. These are just my opinion as well.

Edited by (XBOX)ScooterLaroo
  • Like 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reposting this here as it seems this is better suited for feedback. 

After being able to test the glaive changes stated in the workshop in the live build I will say, they feel pretty bad to use now with just the wind up speed change itself. Remember you don't "spam E" with these kinds of weapons and when you pick a glaive over a typical melee weapon you are trading a steady flow of damage for less rapid but larger hits. I found this weapon class very fun after the rework and with this new change makes me consider using normal melees due to the poor feel of them now. If you must keep this change at least consider adjusting the wind up speed of each glaive on its own as some of these weapons were already quite slow, like the pathocyst which was already considered somewhat slow.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Feedback Suggestion: as I was hoping skinned beam weapons would be coming in this update that focused on Primary/Secondary weapon balance with Beams getting Beam Length exilus mod change 

It would be nice to finally allow normal skins on Beam weapons.

The Kitgun Beam weapons are currently the only "allowable" beam weapons to utilize normal weapon skins.

Weapons like the regular Quanta(Vandal), Spectra (Vandal), Ocucor, etcetera are unable to use normal weapon skins.

 

Gaze kitgun secondary can use weapon skin like Mesa Deluxe Bundle Skin, Zundi skin...yet other secondary beam weapons are excluded from being skinned.

I believe being able to have the choice to skin a beam weapon would have better potential of cosmetic sales than not allowing beam weapons to be skinned. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

After spending like hours of testing melee, I came to the conclusion that melee is still the most efficient way to annihilate enemies, I'm still in the process of testing guns, I don't see any difference except that we now have cool arcanes to toy with, the problem is not melee being too OP, its just happens that we're too fast and agile to move quickly between enemies slashing multiple units, compare that to using a rifle or a sniper we're only targeting one single unit, which is in my opinion why AoE guns being pushed to more usage rightnow. but this will never kill melee entirely, I don't see any point from any of these changes apart from change for the sake of change..

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Glaive weapons are my favorites but now after this update Falcor feels so slow to charge and it also seems to get stuck and not return straight away back. 
Kind of ironic since Xoris is glaive weapon and needed to get rank 1 on nightmare granum void to activate sister canditate.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, (XBOX)ScooterLaroo said:

Where to begin? I think I know where.

Glaives:
While I don't have a fondness for them, I did have a good amount of enjoyment using them as they could take up where melee, and most certainly my favorite type of primary  (shotguns) could not. Taking the fight to a hard enemy from far away quickly. Now, that charge time makes it almost impossible to do so, it feels too heavy and clunky. Go into a normal mission without a tanky or survival frame and you just can't use Glaives anymore. Maybe for Spy or Assassination, but Capture, Exterminate, Mobile Defense, Interception, Excavation, most other game modes are no longer viable.
 

Exactly that. 
I've tested the changes on my orvius, and what used to be a super fun weapon for me is now a slow and clunky weapon that lacks any flow whatsoever. Both using the orvius alone or dual wielded with a pistol just feels almost laggy compared to the flow it had before. Not fun anymore. 

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm liking the Parazon changes so far. I actually find myself able to pull off mercy kills ever since it was made more predictable.

There are still some issues with consistency though. Namely with being unable to perform finishers if enemies are in the middle of a stagger or other CC animation. I find myself standing in front of them frantically mashing the interact key even while the mercy prompt is above them and nothing happens. Please tweak this to always be able to perform finishers as long as the prompt is visible.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

so let me get this straight ... 95% of players loved meele style because of its speed, red crits cutting everything to the atoms .... why the HELL not its PVE, even if we fart nukes nobody cares 
but now they removed the most liked feature of this game? :) because we cant see animation? well DEV's those animations were trash in the first place so yeah we dont care at all that we dont see them :)
DEV's can't be more detached from their own game and its playerbase

instead of listening to playerbase they throwing out their nerfs on PVE game :D 

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, kacmed said:

so let me get this straight ... 95% of players loved meele style because of its speed, red crits cutting everything to the atoms .... why the HELL not its PVE, even if we fart nukes nobody cares 
but now they removed the most liked feature of this game? :) because we cant see animation? well DEV's those animations were trash in the first place so yeah we dont care at all that we dont see them :)
DEV's can't be more detached from their own game and its playerbase

instead of listening to playerbase they throwing out their nerfs on PVE game :D 

Uncalled for.....those animations were made by real people and I personally love the animations. Calling things that people worked hard on "trash" isn't constructive feedback.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, kacmed said:

so let me get this straight ... 95% of players loved meele style because of its speed, red crits cutting everything to the atoms .... why the HELL not its PVE, even if we fart nukes nobody cares 
but now they removed the most liked feature of this game? :) because we cant see animation? well DEV's those animations were trash in the first place so yeah we dont care at all that we dont see them :)
DEV's can't be more detached from their own game and its playerbase

instead of listening to playerbase they throwing out their nerfs on PVE game :D 

Oh quit with your asinine hyperbole. Melee isn't dead. Far from it.

I once left an Extinguished Dragon Key (-75%) equipped by accident and I didn't notice any difference in my ability to kill enemies. 

If that doesn't justify that melee needed to be toned down somewhat, then you really are deluded. 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many of these changes are fine. They're basic middle of road changes that appease multiple camps.

Many people are exaggerating because the mods and arcanes weren't dropped into their inbox fully maxed and ready for them to use. Not DEs problem.

Some people also were never fully utilizing the games tools to be better players in the first place. 

There's a major contradiction within the playerbase at the moment:

People saying this game is out of control powercreep with too many multipliers.....yet all of a sudden people can't kill a few fodder enemies at high level and act like the game is so weak now? What happened?  

This game gives you all the tools to debuff enemies and buff your weapons. It's up to the players to theory craft and make it work. 

I run steel path just fun with a Rivened Harpak, twin rogga, akvasto prime, a serro, Knell, scourge, plinx, Rubico prime, kulstar etc. 

Bad builds should be taken into account before people just say "I put this new mod and arcane on my weapon and it still didn't kill fast enough." This is cheap and dishonest feedback because no details about what the player is actually doing is revealed. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...