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Update 30.5: Melee & Primary Balance Changes Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)


[DE]CoreyOnline
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2 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Many of these changes are fine. They're basic middle of road changes that appease multiple camps.

Many people are exaggerating because the mods and arcanes weren't dropped into their inbox fully maxed and ready for them to use. Not DEs problem.

Some people also were never fully utilizing the games tools to be better players in the first place. 

There's a major contradiction within the playerbase at the moment:

People saying this game is out of control powercreep with too many multipliers.....yet all of a sudden people can't kill a few fodder enemies at high level and act like the game is so weak now? What happened?  

This game gives you all the tools to debuff enemies and buff your weapons. It's up to the players to theory craft and make it work. 

I run steel path just fun with a Rivened Harpak, twin rogga, akvasto prime, a serro, Knell, scourge, plinx, Rubico prime, kulstar etc. 

Bad builds should be taken into account before people just say "I put this new mod and arcane on my weapon and it still didn't kill fast enough." This is cheap and dishonest feedback because no details about what the player is actually doing is revealed. 

 

The changes seem alright to me too. Just, DE's presentation of them was just kinda bad. They probably shouldn't have ever said 10% nerfs 90% buffs cause it gave people unrealistic ideas of how much the guns were going to be buffed. In addition the last minute changes with the gladiator set mechanics on the deconstructor, without touching the vigilante set mechanics (which were basically the same thing) made them seem to be only caring about pushing their agenda rather than actually balancing. 

I honestly think the only way DE has really changed over the years is that they got too worried about stuff they shouldn't, and this just deteriorated their communication skills with the community a bit. They've definitely discussed these things behind the scenes, it's just that they don't really let us see much of that anymore, and because we only see the final decision--without all the arguments leading to said decision--the playerbase often considers a lot of the decisions illogical. I'm certain if we got a full transcript of everything they discussed, a lot more people would agree with the changes made. 

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The problem with "on-kill" conditionals is they do nothing for a lot of Warframe's content. Any particularly powerful targets, be they Liches, Sisters, Eidolons, or even regular enemies like Bombards at high levels, will end up making those conditionals run out. At that point, you'd be better off just using unconditional mods on your weapon. 

The meta for guns also remains exactly the same as before, with an incredibly wide gap between the good guns and the bad guns. Galvanised mods aren't gonna do anything for the Stug, and other weak guns. In the update post you mentioned how guns are inherently more varied than melee, so should have the same viability. I agree, but these changes are irrelevant for the many unique and varied guns that just don't have the stats to succeed.

Guns don't need new mods. They need a game-wide rebalancing, to give them stats that will allow them to be useful. It doesn't matter what mods you give to the Stug, because its base stats are utterly miserable.

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According to DE's design, the Opticor and Opticor Vandal are an MR14 weapon, which is second only to kuva/tenet weapons (15). So, by right, with the right modding and stuff they should be able to kill SP enemies.

 

They can't.  

 

Your buff fails, but then again your buffs don't really benefit low rate of fire weapons that much to begin with.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Many of these changes are fine. They're basic middle of road changes that appease multiple camps.

Many people are exaggerating because the mods and arcanes weren't dropped into their inbox fully maxed and ready for them to use. Not DEs problem.

Some people also were never fully utilizing the games tools to be better players in the first place. 

There's a major contradiction within the playerbase at the moment:

People saying this game is out of control powercreep with too many multipliers.....yet all of a sudden people can't kill a few fodder enemies at high level and act like the game is so weak now? What happened?  

This game gives you all the tools to debuff enemies and buff your weapons. It's up to the players to theory craft and make it work. 

I run steel path just fun with a Rivened Harpak, twin rogga, akvasto prime, a serro, Knell, scourge, plinx, Rubico prime, kulstar etc. 

Bad builds should be taken into account before people just say "I put this new mod and arcane on my weapon and it still didn't kill fast enough." This is cheap and dishonest feedback because no details about what the player is actually doing is revealed. 

 

Amen. I'd like this post 10x if I could. I'm appaled at this feedback thread, it genuinely feels like:

a) people are just salty about not seeing red crits covering their screen anymore and being hyperbolic and disingenuous about the nerfs/buffs, in which case 90% of the feedback in this thread is worthless and will just confuse DE

b) people genuinely have no clue how to mod. They just copy paste overframe or youtube builds and didn't try to swap or adapt their builds yet. 

I tested several guns yesterday, some of them actually performed better than melees. People saying glaive is too nerfed are delusional. All it takes is swapping one single mod in your build. I mean honestly, I expect glaive will be nerfed again, this nerf didn't change anything. And then more salt will flow. 

Edited by --END--Rikutatis
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I'm nowhere near Steel Path or min/max modding yet, so my melee weapons all feel the same so far, but ...

The updated Mercy Kills are awesome! I've been getting them consistently on heavy units, and it's really making the parazon mods sparkle.

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Posted (edited)

alot of the gun based galvanized mods seem like band aid fixes which hasnt really touched on the problem with guns which is AoE kill potential... when u compare melee kill speed to guns, guns are massively outstripped because they cannot kill multiple enemies in 1 stroke... for me take pennant for example i can kill 10 enemies at once with a heavy attack  but with guns even with headshots it takes alot more time! even with aoe guns ur still taking more time than 1 shot.

Focus school, in the focus school there are nodes which help out melee but really nothing for guns i think this is a missed opportunity to add a new focus school/upgrade current ones, this could be flat buffing fire rate, crit and status chance like 5-10% across the board for all guns if u have the node, critical damage and multishot by 25% and have them so that if u take another focus school u can pay the 1 million focus and brilliant shard to keep it active

Some constructive points
- why isnt there an arcane which gives GUNS a ricochet effect like a max rank arcane could be every 7th bullet ricochets to the nearest 6 enemies (max rank arcane). the kit gun one constantly hits walls and is useless
- why isnt there any set mods like the sacrifical melee set for guns, this is a missed opportunity for the galvanized mods should have been set mods the situational bonus of killing an enemy x times to get x effect is kinda not on par with melee set mods.

 

Edited by Spriggen1337
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15 hours ago, Genitive said:

Sure, I use builds similar to this: https://i.imgur.com/ndKPRjR.jpg

Even if you claim my builds are worthless and I know nothing about modding, the fact remains that having "on kill" on galvanized is unnecessary. I don't think we should fulfill additional conditions so that some guns can compete with melee (that we don't have to aim, reload, replenish ammo of, or perform the same tricks to benefit from similar mods). Weapons that struggle to kill will struggle to keep up the buff. I guess top-tier ones will benefit, but I was under the impression that these new mods were supposed to expand our usage of arsenal, not narrow it down.

Oh by the way:

I just made your Trumna build without the new mod, because I don't have it. I replaced that with primed corrupted.

Method was Nyx with ensnare added. I grouped the enemies up, used my bolts to strip armor, and one shot multiple fodder enemies in the head with the trumna. Steel path Ani.

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20 hours ago, (PSN)c1234567890alvi said:

With the elimination of Gladiator Mods on Deconstructor, Helios has pretty much become obsolete and with that the last robotic companion has become obsolete. Please rework companions. Thank you.

Also Meta-Guns have become more meta, while bad weapons have been left behind even more.

Finally 270.000 Endo, 180 vitus essences and at least 128 dead acolytes just to make most guns Steel Path viable is kinda excessive.

And I had just finished modding chroma + paracesis to use the gladiator mod and found out "oh, helios can hold this mod for me, neat". No set mods can be apllied to sentinels anymore

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Il y a 23 heures, [DE]CoreyOnline a dit :

Hello Tenno!

Update 30.5: Sisters of Parvos is live on all platforms and we are looking to hear your thoughts on the changes to Melee & Primary Weapons Balance!

With Update 30.5, we are continuing our Trello Board approach to communicate known bugs, fixed bugs, and popular feedback submitted by you, the community! To see a list of known bugs and fixed issues, please check out our new Trello Board

You will also be able to see notifications of changes and fixes by joining our official Discord Server and following the #bug-feedback-tracking channel, found here.

Please use this thread to let us know your feelings on the following:

Melee Mod Nerfs
Weapon Changes
Primary & Secondary Weapon Arcanes
Galvanized Mods
Login Items
Anything else covered in the Dev Workshop: Arsenal Divide

If you want to let us know your feedback, please make sure that you do so in a civil and constructive manner. Read our How to Provide Good Constructive Feedback thread before posting. If you like something, let us know! If you did not like an aspect of the Melee & Primary Balance Changes, then tell us what it is, and what you would change to make it better! If you have encountered a bug with any of the new content items, be sure to submit a bug report over on our Bug-Hunting Megathread!

Thank you for giving some of us the final stab in the back and the need to find a new game to play when u can actualy have some fun and the suposed "DEV´s" actualy listen to theyr comunity instead of going against them and keep inforcing this changes with iron will and no #*!%s given to Most of us that actualy keep putting money into your game even after all the S#&$ u made us go trew with consistent Changes that You KNOW for sure the comunity and player base in general wont like

"You haven't read existing feedback from your most loyal player base and u clearly choose to go against MOST of your player base instead of fixing the things we have been asking for so long
You will call this feedback in bad faith when it's clear we aren't going to bow down and worship your 'brave' and 'brilliant' design choices"

I dont think is either a smart Move or the right one for you to keep destroying the main things we love about your game  and keep  inforcing changes that go Against 80%+ of the people that spend the most time in your game.. it Makes 0 Sense that  instead of fixing the things that we  have been begging you to D.E you choose to take the fun out of this game more and more and yet u expect us to folow u blindly and keep trowing money into a game FUN its the last thing on your prority list..
Dam shame you keep killing the game and fcking ur  Most Loyal player  base and comunity willingly without remorse

Thank you Digital Extreme for NOT LISTENING to your Most Loyal player base and ppl that actualy been trying so hard to keep  promoting  ur game with love and respect  on theyr social platforms  media etc and Choose to stab them in the back once more just to try to grab a few more casuals that aint gona spend much time here after theyr realized you give 0 Dams about what most if us that play this thing or would like to see changed in your game..

  AGAIN Thank you for  giving us that final nail in coffin, R.I.P warframe time to find a new game to play

 

 

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Posted (edited)

There are numerous issues with this rebalance due to the approach of nerf/buff, resulting in awkward design choices that have further divided the already strong weapons from the weak, and the melee changes have not only driven a wedge between meta and off meta, you only dealt with melee in relation to combo builds and not Heavy Attack builds?

This inconsistency, and heavy handedness is an issue.

I have sympathy for your current working conditions, and your workload since these changes were paired with a major content release, but I think you have made a significant mistake by not doing as you did with the arsenal rebalance, having a dedicated update, or series of updates, commited to addressing the real problems and introducing more sensible or interesting solution in order to fix this "Arsenal Divide."

There is mechanical inconsistency between guns and melee that create a significant disparity in their potential. When you changed melee with melee 2.9, you brought a whole new combo and heavy attack system with changes to existing mods that allowed them to capitalise off of the changes, which shook up builds up in a good way, but guns have no such system. It would be better if you took the time to unify the combo system and allow all guns to not only contribute to it, but also benefit from combo. A change like this would not only preserve all current playstyles, it would breathe new life into them. Renewing existing but underutilised mods with effects that scale with combo and introducing new mods without the unnecessary "on ________" conditions, such as an actual "Condition Overload" to guns,

Furthermore, I will highlight two more significant issues with guns. They require too much investment relative to Warframes, or melee weapons (this is because of the aura and stance mod slot), and the vast majority of guns are single target. I advocate for the introduction of a "munitions" mod slot, something akin to an aura or stance that increases base mod capacity but also does something like change the munition type of a weapon to tailor it for general gameplay, providing something like explosive rounds or punch-through.

Just like with aura's on Warframes, these "munitions" mods don't have to do something complex and could be simple damage increases, and some of these "munitions" mods will be generally useless on certain weapons due to their innate capabilities, such as an explosive rounds type mod on the Ogris. 

Finally, with the changes to Deconstructor I ask that you not only consistently apply the changes by extending it to the vigilante mod sets on gun type sentinel weapons, but that you also address the state of exalted melee, and stat-stick oriented abilities. I have extensively tested the damage potential and utility of every exalted melee weapon with a variety of builds comparing them to the Skiajati Nikana with a nonoptimal low investment Bloodrush and Weeping Wounds combo build, on Adaro Sedna on Steel Path difficulty. The Skiajati outperforms every single exalted melee except Baruuk's Serene Storm with the Reactive Storm augment, which can only compete with a high powers strength Baruuk, and high investment Sacrificial mod build.

Thank you.

Edited by (PSN)Joshua_Badhan
Poor syntax.
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Zero acolyte spawns in steel path incursions. Not a single acolyte has spawned in steel path incursions and I have waited over 5 minutes in each mission applicable.

 

Is this now intended because you have increased the base steel essence reward to 5?

I though acolytes were supposed to spawn more often, nothing was said about them not spawning at all

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Il y a 19 heures, F00K a dit :

Worst update yet, very unhappy about the nerfs. Think I may take a break from playing for so long that I forget what you nerfed and ruined. Plus more grindy corpus liches just sounds lame and just copy and paste of previous content with new images.

Bright side is this is the perfect oportunity to find a new game to play.. maybe even look up a game where the developers Actualy listen and Care about theyr comunity and player base instead of keeping constantly  taking the most fun parts about theyr games and going against MOST of theyr payer base.
Now you have time to find a game where u can ACTUALLY have some fun for a change

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Posted (edited)

Galvanised Mods are amazing  "in star chart missions"

Outside of that I feel no difference between the galvanised versions and the normal mods.

Against Kuva Liches they're really underperforming, although that could just be the wildly overblown buff that Liches seem to have been given for whatever reason.

I haven't managed to find a single arcane yet so i can't really report on that.

Edited by Fl_3
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47 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Oh by the way:

I just made your Trumna build without the new mod, because I don't have it. I replaced that with primed corrupted.

Method was Nyx with ensnare added. I grouped the enemies up, used my bolts to strip armor, and one shot multiple fodder enemies in the head with the trumna. Steel path Ani.

Good job. I'm still trying to figure out what your point is. I'm sitting here rambling about how galvanized mods' "on kill" condition doesn't help them increase damage of weapons and you're talking about builds and whatnot. Now you're telling me you don't have the mod I was talking about originally. Go get it, see how it works, and only then get back to me with your impressions.

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Il y a 18 heures, -Karasun- a dit :

For me the melee nerf just sucks. I don't understand it at all and it feels awfull. I cannot enjoy the update at all because this overshadows it just too much.

yap cant understand how theyr could kill the most loved part bout theyr game for MOST of us and expect any good would come out of this ... such a shamefull thing to do to the people that keep trowing money into theyr case...but this just proves theyr Dont Care not even a bit about theyr player base and they rather go against they most loyal player  instead of making changes that improv and keep the game fun ...

no game that choose to take FUN (witch for most of us is the main reason we play any game)
and willingly choose to stab they comunity in back time and time again will go far.. speacialy when the Dev´s dont listen to the people that actualy are still spending money and puting time in theyr game even after being f+*ED time and time again

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Il y a 16 heures, Bubble-the-Monkey a dit :

After 3 hours on this update this will be my final rant: Awful. Just terrible decisions, half of my melee arsenal are not fun to play anymore.

You want us to hate you , that is the truth.

I also spent 2 hours trying to get a kuva hek (still not found btw), what a boring gaming experience, i'll come back for the new war, from now i'm out of this game.

well spoken... Sad but True..
well at least now u know for SURE.. Its time to find a new game to play..
shamefull how they willingly  choose to fck us all like this lol

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Il y a 14 heures, redninjaoffire a dit :

Going to be honest here...

 

Its bad. Really bad. We liked melee weapons cause we are space ninjas, if you nerf the melee just to make guns feel more special its kind of a step backwards from space ninja and turning it to be just space.

 

 

Also it ruined most of my builds. At least let berserk be usable like it was before so it can still actually be useful.

sorry brother Digital Extreme seems to run on a #*!% FUN policy
they rather loose half theyr player base and take away theyr most love part of the game sadly

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I have only been playing for a few months. the game WAS great. Now you have nerfed my favorite weapons, glaives beyond hope. Even with all the wind up buffs i can find, it still doesn't match it's original playing flow and throwing speed (Half the time it doesn't even come back after throwing and i have to go and find it, while it just sits there spinning on the spot). I have spent most of my time seeking them out trying them all. I spent many, many game hours finding just the right one that suits my style, the falcor and setting it up so it works well for me....soooo much farming to get Astral Twilight.  And in you go and stuff it up in 1 simple step, wasting all my efforts because you want me to use different weapons. You say play your own way.. well i was, now i can't. If you want people to use other weapons... Make them better, don't break the ones we have.

In your release notes you blame players throwing their weapon unintentionally for slowing down the windup. that doesn't sound at all realistic. the more common and deadly issue is not to throw it and you get stuck in the stance combo while getting your butt kicked from heavy long range attacks.

I have never known feedback to actually change anything from a developmental point of view, so i will go and find another game that actually respects my time and does not change the game dynamics wasting all my efforts.

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1 hour ago, Mr_Garrito said:

Zero acolyte spawns in steel path incursions. Not a single acolyte has spawned in steel path incursions and I have waited over 5 minutes in each mission applicable.

 

Is this now intended because you have increased the base steel essence reward to 5?

I though acolytes were supposed to spawn more often, nothing was said about them not spawning at all

They spawn by killing. This was stated in the original post by the devs even. It's likely some kind of mix of randomness which is further catalyzed by killing. I can make them spawn at the 3 min 30 sec in survival or around 3:30 to 4:30.

Naturally....those non endless missions are ran through fast by public matches....skipping enemies and going to the objective. 

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21 hours ago, DenGraaSumpPirat said:

These are steps, but not in the right direction.

"On Kill" conditions are horrible, and to what I see, just makes the problem worse. The popular non-melee weapons (Bramma, Ogris etc explosive) just got a WHOLE LOT more powerful in their room clearing ability... but go up against just one strong enemy (like a lvl 100 Lich) and all your new fancy mods does diddly squat.

But hey, I can still kill it with Melee right? well... I used to be able to get a buff for my attack speed by hammering the Lich, but now.. If I by accident cleared several square kilometers with the Bramma, there are no weak enemies to build and maintain the buffs.

That's the bile from me, rest of the update looks really cool, but:

PLEASE REMOVE "ON KILL" CONDITION!

A good response^. Maybe examine ways to replace “On Kill” with “on Hit/on Damage/on Crit/on Status/on Headshot/on stack/on specific faction type”…?

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14 hours ago, (NSW)RATHURUE said:

I have been telling you guys, DE, that this 'melee nerf, gun buff' thing won't work.

You guys already broken the initial promise of '10% nerf, 90% buff'. And you're STILL breaking them. Melee has been nerfed by 90% (no, not 40% overall damage reduction; you guys gutted the weapons in 'barely usable' tier saved by Berserker/CO combo. Are you guys happy now?), guns buffs only affects the usable 10%.

Is it really went as expected? People started using more guns? No. It only proves that guns won't ever catch to melee without more formas, because of stance mod bonus capacity.

You already have the greatest asset available to buff these guns WITHOUT THESE MODS AND ARCANES.  

 

What is it?

FREAKING RIVEN DISPOSITION.

 

JUST USE THOSE RIVEN DISPOSITION TO BUFF WEAPONS BASE STATS. THAT'S IT. END OF PROBLEM.

THAT WAY PEOPLE WILL USE UNDERWHELMING WEAPON WITH GREAT SYNERGY THAT'S HAMPERED BY THEIR ABILITY TO DO DAMAGE.

AND DON'T EFFING DARE TO NERF META WEAPONS STATS. THOSE WITH RIVEN DISPO OF 1 OR LOWER SHOULD NOT BE TOUCHED: IT MEANS THEIR BASE STATS ARE ALRIGHT, SINCE A LOT OF PEOPLE USES THEM.

 

Just my two cents.

Or take “use those Riven Disposition” out of that sentence and simply:

JUST BUFF WEAPONS BASE STATS.

 

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4 hours ago, PowerPieDj said:

The problem with "on-kill" conditionals is they do nothing for a lot of Warframe's content. Any particularly powerful targets, be they Liches, Sisters, Eidolons, or even regular enemies like Bombards at high levels, will end up making those conditionals run out. At that point, you'd be better off just using unconditional mods on your weapon. 

The meta for guns also remains exactly the same as before, with an incredibly wide gap between the good guns and the bad guns. Galvanised mods aren't gonna do anything for the Stug, and other weak guns. In the update post you mentioned how guns are inherently more varied than melee, so should have the same viability. I agree, but these changes are irrelevant for the many unique and varied guns that just don't have the stats to succeed.

Guns don't need new mods. They need a game-wide rebalancing, to give them stats that will allow them to be useful. It doesn't matter what mods you give to the Stug, because its base stats are utterly miserable.

Dispo Galvanized mods for weak weapons?

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Posted (edited)

It feels like DE came out out with 80% useless content and 20% good content and they feel hurt by it, so they try to nerf what makes the game good so its more on par with the other worthless content and call it a balance so people use more of the worthless content by making it all on the worth less scale.  I dont want to spend 2 hours in a mission shooting one target and having to use all weapons and my operator for every single mission.  Like many others have said. The game is supposed to be space ninjas and play the way we want to play. But more and more it feels like I am being forced to play a certain way especially with so limited mod slots.  Why does a necramech have more mod slots than a railjack makes no sense whatsoever.

Its clear the changes being made in the game do not come from actual players. Just developers looking at charts being like, awww nobody is playing with my weapons I spent months building, Ill show you by nerfing your favorite weapons.

 

I have a life, and do not have time for suck long hours of grinding after already grinding for 6 years to just do the same stuff over and over again with re hashed images and weaker weapons. All I see now are nerfs and mods coming out that work in certain situations and only for limited duration... makes the game feel more like your shots are not working correctly or getting misfires since you have to wait for stacking which wont work with high level players. When a mod only triggers On Kill at lvl 180 enemies... yeah have fun with that lol

Edited by F00K
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