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Update 30.5: Helminth Update Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)


[DE]CoreyOnline
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Hello Tenno!

Update 30.5: Sisters of Parvos is live on all platforms and we are looking to hear your thoughts on the brand new additions to the Helminth System! 

With Update 30.5, we are continuing our Trello Board approach to communicate known bugs, fixed bugs, and popular feedback submitted by you, the community! To see a list of known bugs and fixed issues, please check out our new Trello Board.

You will also be able to see notifications of changes and fixes by joining our official Discord Server and following the #bug-feedback-tracking channel, found here.

Please use this thread to let us know your feelings on the updates to the system. For a complete list of changes including Invigorations and new abilities, please refer to our forum post here!

If you want to let us know your feedback, please make sure that you do so in a civil and constructive manner. Read our How to Provide Good Constructive Feedback thread before posting. If you like something, let us know! If you did not like an aspect of the Helminth System changes, then tell us what it is, and what you would change to make it better!

If you have encountered a bug with any of the new content items, be sure to submit a bug report over on our Bug-Hunting Megathread! 

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It's a no brainer that the exp should have been retoactive.
We are basicly punished for playing the game and feeding him frames because we need to grind levels the hard way now.

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Justice for early Helminth-completion adopters.

This is indefensible - it's easy to calculate at least the experience total of subsumed Warframes and assign the new total if >= Rank 10 from that alone.

 

It also sets a terrible precedent. Are we supposed to avoid subsuming any Warframe going forward just in case you decide to add more again at some distant future point? Because that's what's going to happen now you've stabbed us in the back this time around.

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1 hour ago, SSI_Seraph said:

It's a no brainer that the exp should have been retoactive.
We are basicly punished for playing the game and feeding him frames because we need to grind levels the hard way now.

Apparently Invigorations are supposed to give you a lot of xp, so its not like they left you with only a super slow way to progress by infusing abilities over and over or something, ya'll are being way over dramatic. 

Either way, I actually disagree that we should just be gifted levels for logging in. I think that is ridiculous entitlement, and defeats the purpose of playing games to begin with. 

We were early adopters, we knew that xp was "wasted" and we did it anyways. And for early adopting, we got all the benefits of the Helminth system. 

We lost nothing. 

We were not "stabbed in the back" and nothing was taken from us. 

We are just being asked to actually play the game. 

If they just gave ya'll the levels, people would complain about being bored and not having enough to do. I disagree that we should be entitled to new content just because we logged in, I want to earn it. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Either way, I actually disagree that we should just be gifted levels for logging in. I think that is ridiculous entitlement, and defeats the purpose of playing games to begin with. 

I worked for those levels by farming those frames, I'm not "gifted" anything
 

 

3 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

We were early adopters, we knew that xp was "wasted" and we did it anyways. And for early adopting, we got all the benefits of the Helminth system. 

They never said they were adding more levels so we never knew.

 

4 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

We were not "stabbed in the back" and nothing was taken from us. 

Someone who didn't engage with the system is having a way easier time leveling them me when I played their game and grinded and there was no benefit for me in those unlock to justify the whole "early adopter" excuse when a large majority of the abiltiies are overlaps/useless

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, SSI_Seraph said:

Someone who didn't engage with the system is having a way easier time leveling them me when I played their game and grinded and there was no benefit for me in those unlock to justify the whole "early adopter" excuse when a large majority of the abiltiies are overlaps/useless

Again, invigorations are going to give us a lot of xp, lets wait and see how much we get from them, before you claim a new player is somehow going to now "level faster than you". 

You worked to grind those frames, but you subsumed them knowing that overlap xp was just "poof" gone. You did it anyways, and got the full benefits of the system for it. 

Are you really trying to tell me, that if you knew that your overlap xp would not be given back to you one day if they hypothetically added extra levels, that you would have held back from subsuming frames and taking full benefit of the system, just so you would have that xp ready one day? 

Come on... be realistic. 

Edit: But anyways, this whole conversation is academic, because once people unlock their invigoration segments, it is supposed to give you a lot of xp for using them, so I think the players who have enough resources to have been early adopters will find themselves maxed out in a couple days anyways and be bored again, so this is just much ado about nothing. I'm going to go play the game. 

Edited by Tesseract7777
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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Are you really trying to tell me, that if you knew that your overlap xp would not be given back to you one day if they hypothetically added extra levels, that you would have held back from subsuming frames and taking full benefit of the system, just so you would have that xp ready one day? 

Yes because a large number of the subsumes are absolutely useless/overlapping and I did it because collection and never used them
and invogorations are locked weekly and might have a resource price tag. Even if we assume they give good EXP, I'm still in a much worse situation than a guy who never engaged with the system and "played the game like he's asked" as you were saying.
What this is telling me is hold off feeding once I'm at cap from now on. Which is NOT the purpose of the system.

Even beyond this system, this is not the first time they screw over early adopters.

Edited by SSI_Seraph
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27 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Again, invigorations are going to give us a lot of xp, lets wait and see how much we get from them, before you claim a new player is somehow going to now "level faster than you". 

You know what people who still have frames to subsume can do? BOTH.

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Get rid of "Helminth Invigorations" entirely. Warframe stats should not be determined by RNG, and it seems most of the community agrees on this. But as brozime has pointed out on some of his videos, this system can and will spread more toxicity between players, specifically with squad forming. When forming squads for eidolon runs, or orphix missions, or profit taker, etc, people are only going to be accepting certain players with certain frames that are invigorated with certain stats.

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I really, really dislike the 'random' warframe in the buffs on Helminth. Random buffs I could go for... but random buffs on random warframe.

I wasted a perfectly good 50 plat to get somethingg right away that I will probably never look at again.

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5 hours ago, [DE]CoreyOnline said:

Please use this thread to let us know your feelings on the updates to the system.

Serious question: why should anyone invest their time after DE didn't listen to any of the feedback on Helminth given ahead of this update?

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2 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Apparently Invigorations are supposed to give you a lot of xp, so its not like they left you with only a super slow way to progress by infusing abilities over and over or something, ya'll are being way over dramatic. 

Either way, I actually disagree that we should just be gifted levels for logging in. I think that is ridiculous entitlement, and defeats the purpose of playing games to begin with. 

We were early adopters, we knew that xp was "wasted" and we did it anyways. And for early adopting, we got all the benefits of the Helminth system. 

We lost nothing. 

We were not "stabbed in the back" and nothing was taken from us. 

We are just being asked to actually play the game. 

If they just gave ya'll the levels, people would complain about being bored and not having enough to do. I disagree that we should be entitled to new content just because we logged in, I want to earn it. 

 

Aw, just like having the 5 Formats in a Necramech before Nercameh level got raised to 40...so add another 5 Formas to make it 10 needed to hot same level as others hitting 5.

 

I got you and see what you are saying.

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I've already subsumed every warframe except the new one... How do I get to Rank 15 Metamorphosis within the Helminth? Do I just have to keep Infusing and Removing abilities I don't want to use now? Will there be any script run to retroactively give EXP for warframes subsumed while previously maxed?

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+1 to everyone else's comments. If you want to allow us to have something to do, give us an option of selecting between a Kuva cache, or Nightwave credits, or Catalysts, or Forma, or choosing to have the XP applied to the Helminth. People can choose to benefit from their early investment in the system, and gain the additional levels by doing Invigorations (which I've only seen 1 supporter of the concept since it was previewed, I don't like the entirety of the game having an added level of RNG added to Warframe effectiveness) or subsumes or remaining Warframes.

1 hour ago, Paranoicon said:

The fact that retroactive Helminth XP is not being given sucks insurmountable amounts of arse.

Paranoicon is right. This sucks BIGTIME. See the countless other complaints already flooding Reddit and the forum, from BEFORE this update even released, saying this decision sucked a LOT. This is NOT a good look, DE. And I'm sure you know it. Don't disrespect our time and money by forcing us to grind extra resources and buy boosters to be able to afford Invigorations and Subsumes to be able to catch up with the late adopters.

Miss us with that "like other MMO's" BS, be consistent to your OWN practices, and give us the refunds you gave us when you DRASTICALLY reduced the grind to complete a Railjack! Or how even in this update you gave us Forma to compensate for builds and/or weapons that have become obsolete.

If you want us to engage with the Helminth system further, give us something, as mentioned in my first paragraph, to compensate us for the REDUNDANT grind that you're forcing your LOYAL players to do, that you're giving your newer/slower players a pass on. And also, fix the absolutely garbage-tier Subsumable abilities, so that they're worth picking for more than just a joke or hyper-niche build? So that they're good on their own Warframes?

Please. Seriously. This bites.

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Posted (edited)

I don't particularly care about the "this is what other MMOs do" excuse, even if it happened to be true: not retroactively giving XP from subsumed warframes punishes early adopters, and shakes confidence in future updates given that with this mentality, anything we complete now may hamper our future progress if the limited-use progression resource we waste now becomes relevant later on. Please reconsider the deliberate choice to not retroactively award us the XP from our subsumes, as clearly that choice is not going down well. I'm not looking forward to spam-infusing a throwaway pincushion frame and dumping a bunch of resources just for the sake of going through the ranks, and I'd rather not have that given that I and others have clearly put a substantial effort in infusing every frame we could've infused so far prior to this update.

For quick reference purposes: subsuming a warframe grants 1600 XP. Prior to rank 10, we have a limit of 20 subsume slots: without even counting the XP gained from feeding Helminth after each subsume, or Yareli (whose blueprint should be a Simaris offering after the quest but currently isn't, by the way), the 26 remaining warframes we've subsumed could have given us 41,600 XP. That's at least two whole ranks' worth of progress we can't get back. When one does factor in the XP gained from feeding Helminth the resources spent to subsume our warframes, even when assuming we get the least progress possible (Nezha, from the looks of it, which requires 68% of three different resources), that's another 35,360 XP: in other words, the "wasted" XP in subsuming our leftover warframes would almost certainly have propelled us to rank 15. It would not be difficult for a script to award some minimum amount of XP for each subsumed warframe above the 20 mark, and I think that would be more respectful to a committed playerbase than throwing that commitment away and making us wary of committing in that manner in the future.

Edited by Teridax68
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1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't particularly care about the "this is what other MMOs do" excuse, even if it happened to be true: not retroactively giving XP from subsumed warframes punishes early adopters, and shakes confidence in future updates given that with this mentality

The MMO excuse is doubly hilarious because an MMO level cap expansion will come with a big new zone + quests (a.k.a. lots of new xp). Helminth just got the invigorations, which (unless I'm mistaken) will give way less xp than warframes and isn't really comparable to the MMO scenario. Unless, of course, I missed that the update introduced 3 or 4 new warframes in addition to yarelli.

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I have ti agree, the fact that exp is NOT retroactive is a misstep.

I had saw someone mention that wanting the exp to count was an act of entitlement, which I have to completely disagree with. Many people had to farm frames all over again, while many have prime variations many do not so it wasn't a simple matter of just dumping a frame in Helmith. Yes at the time we knew once the cap was reached we only in frames for the abilities to have the options.

Now things are different, regardless if the frame was just laying around, it was farmed for the most part (could have been bought with Plat but even still money us just irl grinding) meaning that the work was already put into the system and SHOULD be counted when expanding the levels that Helmith. 

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Posted (edited)

On another note - how do you know which Warframes to invigorate? I can't seem to find anywhere where it shows up...

EDIT - Nevermind, I saw you have to craft it first. Derp on me...

Edited by Azamagon
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Helminth Invigorations should be outright removed. Having RNG buffs on RNG selected frames is a recipe for toxicity.

During the next operation/Eidolon run/anything hard or with leaderboards, why would I want to run with someone who doesn't have an optimal buff on an optimal frame? Sure your Rhino has a 300% strength Roar buff, but that other guy's Rhino now randomly has a 500% strength Roar buff. Someone who has spent time putting forma into a frame is instantly outclassed by someone who got lucky RNG.

Remove the system, the entire thing is a terrible idea. It's going to make finding optimal squads for higher level content that much harder.

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The people who belittle early adopters absolutely baffle me. As if early adopters didn't grind out the frames, the resources for the frames, the wait times, the subsuming costs.

I don't think many people think we're owed backlogged exp for infusions or feeding, that's a bit much, but people who have dumped the time into re-farming every frame should get at least that exp. What are we supposed to think about future systems you implement, DE? Are we going to have to walk on eggshells every time you add something new to the game in case we do too much before you decide to add on more? It's not a very good look.

I get people saying "Do invigorations", I do, but you could be doing invigorations AND frames at the same time. Early adopters just flat out lost exp for no reason other than playing the game the way you intended.

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Absolutely nonsensical response to valid feedback.
Why do you chose to die on such bad hills..?
Where's the 'Second Dream' DE that made me fall in love with this game?

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Was it intentional or an oversight to screw people who subsumed warframes prior to the update?

It's an absolutely unbearable slog to just burn hundreds of thousands of resources for one level of Helminth above 10 because DE didn't figure it'd be unfair to punish players who kept up with subsuming warframes after hitting rank 10. Our only recourse for leveling is to just burn resources to spend time in a UI element infusing trash abilities on frames and then removing infusion over and over again.

This includes the fact that I paid platinum to get Ivara a second time because the RNG and farm for her is unbearable and obnoxious.

There should ideally be a script run to properly grant our Helminth the appropriate amount of XP based on subsumed warframes, and if that's not possible, you need to MASSIVELY increase the XP gained/reduce XP required for leveling past 10, because 10 infusions is barely enough to hit level 11, and that's a lot of burned resources and wasted time to keep up with a system that wasn't properly thought out and expanded to account for players who put in the work already. If we have to ignore the helminth system even more (Because let's face facts, Gloom is about the only useful Subsumed ability), then maybe DE has wasted their time and effort as well as ours with this major mistake of an "update" to the helminth grind.

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So since most people who put all there Warframes in to get all the helminth abilities are just getting screwed over.  What reason would I have to get up to level 15 for the helminth. All the newer players/casual players will get to 15 by subsuming their Warframes.  While people like me just get screwed because I wanted to play with the helminth system to see what I could do to improve all Warframes kits.  I only looking to get the standing for Warframes being subsumed. I don't mind if they don't calculate all infusions that I've done but atleast give us the XP for Warframes subsumed. Otherwise I will just not use the helminth system its just a waste of time to keep adding abilities to a Warframe then to remove them and feed the Helminth just to get XP to get to 15.  DE really needs to fix this because it is complete BS.

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Posted (edited)

So you’re seriously not giving me credit for the frames I fed my Helminth?

Really?

I’m not even asking for the XP from feeding or adding abilities, I just want the XP I got from sacrificing 30+ frames, and I’m 100% certain most people who sacrificed all 40’+ want their credit as well.

Edited by Bad_Head
Clarified that I’m not bad at math, I just wasn’t done with feeding all the frames. I think I’m only missing 8, if I’m remembering correctly, but that’s still a good number of frames I didn’t get any credit for
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