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Update 30.5: Helminth Update Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)


[DE]CoreyOnline
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just going to comment agreeing with everyone else. the not retroactive xp is annoying as hell. as others say I am fan if it doesn't include xp for every time we feed it or infuse a warframe but at LEAST give us some for ever warframe subsumed.

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Some systems in this game are released as intended, with room to grow. For example, when Railjack was released, the command intrinsics wasn't available. We knew that we would have to grind more when command eventually came out.

This wasn't the case at all. Helminth was pitched as a finished package. Sure, as each new frame comes out there'd be a new ability, but it wasn't ever communicated that there would be a massive new release added to it, let alone one that requires more grinding, and which doesn't take into account the grinding we already did.

I have every single frame subsumed. I feel ripped off, big time. Please give retroactive credit at least for the frames themselves, if not also for the feeding that we had to do to enable those frames to be subsumed.

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Feedback for the new segment: I will not be purchasing/building the segment. I don't want the random buffs each week, likely for frames I don't want to use, or I'd already be using them - and if it's because they're too weak without the buffs, it means the frames need work.

I don't personally use the recruit chat, or bother with people I don't know to deal with stuff like Eidolons, and I don't participate in leaderboard shennanigans enough to care about the toxicity that will arise from people only wanting certain random buffs on their strict frame and modding required for recruited team members... that sounds horrible enough as it currently stands, without said buffs to worry about.

 

Also, grant the XP from all frames subsumed (you keep track of their flowers, and those equate a BASE MINIMUM exp that should be established, as well as the bare minimum exp from feeding the helminth enough to subsume all those frames. These are KNOWN values that can be used to establish a minimum that a person should be compensated for, regardless of the number of infusions and extra feedings required for playing around with the system. That much is owed.

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Seriously, are we really bothered to pay considerable efforts to add invigoration? It is no in use, sir. It is simply no in use in the real games. If you want to actually benefit for this, you need every single types of warframes available for now, and all of them are fully formaed to be battle ready, and what they have is a random buff, for the random frame.

Do you think that it have a meaning in the game? Seriously? Let be real. It is no in use. We can use some warframes, not only one, but only a few are required and we don't have the forma and time enough to pay for lackluster warframes. And even if we had a full roaster of warframes, there is no guarantee the chosen warframe gets the right buff either.

Also it requires the standing with the Entrati - it is not free, despite of its cheap buff(if you call such an useless one a buff, of course). For me, who HAVE TO GET THE HELMINTH UPGRADE BY THE SUFFERING WHILE GRIND MY TEETH and don't care for Necralisk at all after then, I don't think that I can get it even if I want it. It is a good news that it is no in use thus I can keep consider them to be not on the game.

 

And the most ridiculous part is;

  

On 2021-06-18 at 10:56 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Our main objective with this system expansion is really simple: give players a way to engage with Warframes they may not have used in a while!

 

Seriously, a way to engage with Warframes we may not have used in a while? Despite it doesn't give us any motivation to actually do so, and it is not open to everyone?

 

Also not to mention for removing the exceeding experience.

 

Anyway, if you want any positive reaction, you are very wrong. At least give us a functional system. A functional system, sir.

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No retro active experience for subsumed frames and resources fed to Helminth?

As someone who subsumed all frames except Harrow and someone who toyed around with subsuming abilities a lot I have to say:

What a slap in the face!

I am getting punished for engaging with a system more heavily than others. You want me to not engange and wait a few month till the system has
settled into its final stage just to be sure that I dont get burned?

😐

 

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As someone who doesn't really care for leaderboards and such, I have to say: this random stuff is horrible and it won't achieve the set goal of encouraging players "engage with Warframes they may not have used in a while".

Let's say I get a buff for Inaros. You think this will make me play Inaros? Hell no. Banshee? Same. Frost? Who plays Nyx these days? etc

 

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20 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Apparently Invigorations are supposed to give you a lot of xp, so its not like they left you with only a super slow way to progress by infusing abilities over and over or something, ya'll are being way over dramatic. 

The thing with Invigoration is that they gave random bonuses to random 3 frames. I don't use most frames. I think I like ~5 frames, another ~10 I'm using for certain stuffs (e.g. Ivara for spies). There is low chance to get Invigi for frame I like and stats I need. I can select frame every 10th Invigi. That's at least 3 weeks assuming that I Invigi all 3 frames...

I have subsumed all frame I could/want. Same with infussion. For me it's one of those:

- Use invigoration on frame that I won't use

- Infuse random ability that I won't use

It's total waste of time.

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Invigorations.

DE doesn't seem to realise that the reason that people don't play certain frames is because they're really bad when compared to others.

Example, Why play as Hydroid when you can play as Khora?

Adding a random week long buff to a frame, that's going to cost the player to use isn't going to stop players from playing the frames they want to and ignoring the others.

It's the same with Arbitrations, I only use the frame with the bonus when it's a frame I enjoy playing, and invigorations are going to be exactly the same.

I'm not the only person who's going to think like that.

You can't force players to do something they do not want to.

Also, not even considering that people who have already spent so much time farming frames to feed into helminth would want some form of recognition for actually playing the game you gave them is pretty much idiocy.

A bad decision, and not one that will bring you much trust in the future.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, SSI_Seraph said:

Yes because a large number of the subsumes are absolutely useless/overlapping and I did it because collection and never used them
and invogorations are locked weekly and might have a resource price tag. Even if we assume they give good EXP, I'm still in a much worse situation than a guy who never engaged with the system and "played the game like he's asked" as you were saying.
What this is telling me is hold off feeding once I'm at cap from now on. Which is NOT the purpose of the system.

Even beyond this system, this is not the first time they screw over early adopters.

I mean those were reasons, but theyre not ones you should expect players to clearly get. Collecting those abilities is not going to be seen as something pointless by players, as some share in the thought "i dont know when ill need these. I dont want to wait and grind them out later when i find out i need them".  So instead of procrastinating they worked ahead 

Plus the abilities being good or not, is opinionated, not fact. So under no circumstances should DE treat it like it like its some sort of puzzle, by HOPING the players can figure out that DE intended for them not to subsume every ability. We are not mind readers and do not share the same opinions, punnishing us for that is not a fair thing to do.

 

Also DE does not always screw over players. They just made some railjack changes fairly recently where players were repaued very VERY well. So it is not entirely foolish for people to think DE would pay some attention to early adopters this time round

 

You can try to place blame on players all you want, but DE still takes a HEAVY part in that too.

Edited by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim
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21 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Either way, I actually disagree that we should just be gifted levels for logging in. I think that is ridiculous entitlement, and defeats the purpose of playing games to begin with. 

Its not that we're given free exp for logging in, but rather there was exp that belonged to us that had no use. With new changes, it would have been better to not play the game and then suddenly play now because its significantly harder to gain exp from ability swaps on helminth. In other words, we're owed the exp they discarded due to poor logistics

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I just want to reiterate something I've already said in the helminth workshop:

'Just want to point out in other MMO's you wouldn't necessarily get the XP because you would just throw in more farmable material. You can't re-subsume all the excess warframes you've already done, and if you want to avoid invigorations you're now waiting patiently for some new frames to be released. It's because we can't refarm and re-subsume the warframes that they should honour the XP.'

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Aside from the topic of those of us who subsumed all the frames now having a net NEGATIVE in terms of available XP compared to those who didn't (seriously, other MMOs level the playing field with the introduction of new stuff, this one has us early adopters at a literal DISADVANTAGE) - what is supposed to happen if you have multiple copies of a frame?

 

I have 2 Loki Primes and I have an invigoraiton for Loki. I can Invigorate only one of them and I'm blocked from invigorating the second one - and no the second one does not have the Invigoration UI marker that the first one has when equipped. Is this intentional? If so, why? If it's to stop us gaining XP too fast *grinds teeth* then why not make it apply to both copies of the frame then?

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Invigorations are the abomination of this patch…The reasoning behind the implementation was that it will help the underplayer warframes.

So after you build that garbage you realise that besides the Time gated RNG of warframe you also have RNG ON THE BUFFS THE SELECTED WARFRAME GETS…Meaning that if you get hydroid you can get x 5 jump or +2 energy regen or +1000 Armor,basically your bad warframe can still be bad but now it has improved energy for a week yaaay.

 

The fact that it doesn’t revolved around the sacrificed warframes as the whole helmith system is centered around that it’s stupid.

Adding cost for placing a warframe on the chair for the sake of doing an invigoration is atrocious.

Tbh this system made me remember the stream when DE Steve was complaining about people using simulacrum too much and not experiencing the game .This system looks like an idea implemented on a simulacrum by someone with no game knowledge or goal in mind.

It looks like a system ment to have as much RNG as possible…

 

 

 

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DE, I get that you explicitly want us to not blast through content, so that we aren't accusing you of content droughts, or of not producing enough content quickly enough.

But this really isn't the ethically defensible, morally justifiable way of doing so.

Actively screwing over your loyal playerbase by invalidating the effort they've put into experiencing as much of the game as possible, as compared to the slower and more casual, not-yet-completing players, is not good.

EVERYBODY and their mother gave you the feedback early on that they were concerned that the Helminth System itself was going to cause DE to not pay as close attention to the outdated, left-behind-by-nerfs, non-meta frames, because they'd be "fixed" by having better abilities from better Warframes applied to them. The Invigorations reek of adding a layer of obscurity to the non-popularity and non-usefulness of various Warframes, and this was relayed to you in the workshop by countless people, all fully ignored.

Newer/Slower players can fast-track their way to Helminth's 15th level by Infusing abilities, Subsuming Warframes, AND via Invigorations. If you absolutely insist on punishing and slowing down the players who've already subsumed all of their Warframes and performed the experimentation they desired, who might not want to utilize this questionable Invigoration system, you should at LEAST give them back something, like Forma/Kuva/Catalyst caches, in exchange for all of the additional resources you're insisting they be required to burn.

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"Helminth Workshop FAQ:

Does your Helminth Rank automatically increase when the new 5 Ranks are added?

- No. The new Invigorations will give XP/Affinity toward Helminth in addition to normal feeding and Subsume/Infusion actions! There won’t be any automatic rankups based on the current vs new Level Cap."

Please tell us why you didn’t compensate the early adapters who already had gotten through all of the frame subsuming. Why you took the Helminth XP from us?

Guys? Any idea?

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Yeah keep deleting it.

I ask till we get an sufficient answer from the person who was responsible for this decision. Didnt you learn anything from recent MMOs? The Helminth LEVEL isnt even near  for a comparision and therefore your excuse "as in every other MMO" is just pure comical nonsense.

If you want to compare the Playerlevel of a MMO use your Mastery Rank system and even there you will get retrospectivly exp if you hit the max rank and getting further Mastery Rank EXP.

 

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Well DE, as I have subsumed all warframes before this warframe update, I am not going to check new Helminth content for as long as there will be no compensation for helminth xp i did not get due to actually playing your game.

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Allow us to give optional feedback on the invigorations from the last week rotation, inside the game.

As I see it, the invigoration system is an automated and personal feature to test out underpowered Warframes... In my case, I got Nyx, Frost and Baruuk; none were meta Frames!

Also, I think you are already using the system for data to see how to buff underpowered/underused Warframes, which is something very nice to do. If you are not, please do it!

You already got plenty of useful data from the Subsume system, after all.

Thank you for the great work!

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I waited months to even look into helminth system and put warframe and maxed it out, now I dont get any credit for that... seriously!!!

DE this why your content does not get used just like railjack, you come out with stuff, let it sit forever, then we tenno put the effort into finally completing and maxing stuff just to have that effort be for nothing, its like all the ancient players get punished for their grind, when new players come in and get stuff 75% faster. Like railjack should have been mods to begin with not that tiered system from the depths below. I have found it easier to just trade for plat and buy what i want instead of doing the grinds.

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I just realized the comment I dropped a while back over here got deleted Ahem, swallowed by the Void.

As such, I figure I'd re-state what I said in the past. Summed up, I'm not going to re-type everything.

  • Retroactive Helminth XP should be given for subsumed Warframes. Not necessarily for anything else. Just subsumed Warframes.
  • The fact Retroactive Helminth XP isn't being given is ironic, given that this very same update, Formas have been given out to players that invested in certain weapons to compensate for their "nerfs".
  • Invigorations are going to cause toxicity. At this point about a hundred people have said as much. This point remains unadressed.
  • Invigorations, as a system designed to encourage people to play other frames, won't work. People will use it for the selective buff, and that will be it.
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i like it a lot!

 

The buffs being unique per player "fixes" the potential problem of every "registered (l)user" using the same exact frame for an entire week xD

 

I'm waiting for more knowlegeable players to philosophize on the consequences that such weekly individual choices have on the stock value of canned beans retailers ... but from a casual player's perspective, that doesn't ask many questions, you DO end up enjoying switching frame, with the safety of being able to exploit a buff to complete the mission ... or just have fun.

 

Only thing ... i would love to play around with that " jump 5 times" buff ... but it's totally up to RNG.

 

If Rivens are anything to go by, this is here to stay xD but a slight semblance of player choice would be appreciated.

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Oh! It seems I can just invigorate the frames and walk away... Easy leveling without having to play the frames you intended to motivate us to play!

I'm being facetious of course! DE, you need to add Syndicate-style Helminth points for playing the invigorated frames. Maybe these can passively feed Helminth so that we have reasons to play invigorated frames after rank 15. Otherwise, yeah... invigorate and forget!

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Posted (edited)

1. Make the other Aura mods rank 9. Rebalance is meaningless if Steel Charge stands alone.

2. Nerf the Acolyte's one-shot-wtf-killed-me attack. I don't see any telegraphing even when he's not in the midst of a swarm of adds. If I can't avoid it, and I can't tank it... there is no fun. My strategy has thus not changed one iota from this rebalance: max health/armor warfame, melee with heals, and hope I kill him before I randomly die. Not fun.

Update: found a log entry that demonstrates the problem (This is with a maxed umbral Chroma with adaptation AND +1000 extra armor from Helminth invigoration just today)...

20:40:16 - <SergeantNathan> killed by 813 damage at 789 health from a level 125 MISERY using a EtherScytheWeapon
Edited by SergeantNathan
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