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Update 30.5: Helminth Update Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)


[DE]CoreyOnline
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16 minutes ago, Paranoicon said:

Personally, I don't think Ability Infusion or Resource Costs should count. At the end of the day, it's possible to remove infusions and to re-infuse again, same thing when it comes to feeding resources. It's not possible to subsume all the Warframes into the Helminth again.

Ok, but why would you re-infuse it? The same goes for random invigoration used for leveling Helminth. It's total waste of time. It's not even high grind (like farming tokens for Entrati) or high randomnes/time gate (try to get low chance mod from Silver grove specters).

Lots of data is still there. I don't mind loosing some exp on infusion on same config.

 

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Just going to add onto the pile that we really should get the XP for frames we have subsumed after reaching level 10. I didn't even subsume many frames after 10 so I still have a ton I can subsume for the added XP, but its really not fair to punish the early adopters of the system.

You don't have to give people the XP for feeding/ infusing after 10 since those are infinite sources of XP, but subsuming warframes is a one time source of getting XP, and trying to replace that lost XP will take a lot of time/ resources that shouldn't have to be used.

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7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

It's still an active disadvantage. How much have you 'benefited' from unlocking, say, Decoy? Or any of another dozen-or-two utterly forgettable subsumed abilities. You just did it because it's a daily restriction anyway, so why not get it done while you have the frames to burn. Only now that decision screwed you.

It's also the sheer principle of what this entails going forwards. I'll give you two comparable scenarios, one on an old system and one more current concern:

1: Imagine you, today, take all your Eidolon shards and burn them into your Focus stockpiles despite having maxed every item and every pool already. Tomorrow, DE announces updates for the system with all-new stuff to unlock, so they will be  cutting Focus to the previous maximum required in each school but both refuses to refund your recently-spent Shards, while allowing others to utilise their remaining stocks of Shards. 
Sure, you can just go farm more Focus and Eidolons post-update, so it's fine your previous time and resource investment is stolen away, right? Even though the only difference between you starting from scratch and someone else maxing most of the new stuff immediately is the fact they didn't burn their shards the day before the announcement?

2: We currently get an abundance of Hounds from Sisters that we have little use for, once we have all the models and precepts. Now you can A) Claim the spare Hounds from your foundry into spare companion inventory space and sell them off for mere credits, or B) let them sit unclaimed in the foundry. A later update might give us the ability to, say, break unwanted Sister Hounds into their component parts. But you will not get compensated if you sold an unused Hound for credits before this update. Consequently, (A) Players will have had their gameplay investments largely wasted (with only credits to show) compared to (B) players who can now burn all their unclaimed Hounds into a fat stack of (even trade-able!) commodity. 

I find it interesting how you're loading the questions by implying the answers you want to hear. It seems to me that you don't really care what I think, but instead only care about making me agree with you. I might have been more sympathetic if not for the dishonesty. So, here we go!

First of all... I'm sorry, but I don't think I've been screwed by my decisions at all. I did it because I either wanted the abilities or wanted them off my checklist and I achieved those goals. At the time I did exactly what I wanted, and got exactly what I wanted. Now, well, I can just invigorate frames and get a whole level in two feeds, I guess, so it doesn't matter all that much?

It's A) not a big deal and B) exactly how every level cap increase works, both in almost every game generally and Warframe specifically. Borderlands for instance didn't do it when 2 had level cap increases. Diablo II didn't do it, if I remember correctly. It's not correct of them to say this is MMO logic, because MMOs give skips for one reason: To get people to the raid content faster. We don't have raids (anymore, lmao), so this is a small squad based shooter, and progress works exactly like this in all of those, but people don't rage like this there. What gives? Oh, and Intrinsics were capped before Command. Syndicate rep is capped and we didn't get free rep when the cap got increased. This is an addition, not a change to S#&$ we already had, like the Kuva Nukor (which gave forma BECAUSE it changed something existing, and that's the only reason).

Also, everything past your first paragraph is a slippery slope fallacy, so I just don't accept making such huge drama based on what-ifs.

1: Your scenario is just wrong, because you're saying they SUBTRACTED XP that was being tracked before intentionally. Did you notice something? No? Well, the difference is that after you hit rank 10 in Helminth, the game stopped tracking all the extra XP. They're literally not subtracting something you already had, they just stopped counting for a while and started again. Also, it's been literally months, it wasn't overnight.

2: Yeah okay, so? They're not even directly tradeable like that. Are kuva *weapons* tradeable? No. I didn't get compensated for the dozen warframes I sold before Helminth, and it was a grind, but also I'd done most of that literally a year earlier. So, big deal. Well, it sucked for the frame I sold two weeks earlier, but I got my use out of them (and needed the slots) so I didn't "lose" anything, I just "didn't gain as much as I could have", so I don't really care.

Here's how this sounds. "Steam Support, I bought this game at full price last month, but it went on 25% sale already in the Summer Sale. Can I get refunded the difference? I played 200 hours already." Would they ever take you seriously? Hell no.

I also provided a solution that was very reasonable, but I see you haven't even touched on it.

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I likewise am disappointed that they don't wish to give credit for the experience that can only be earned one time.

If they feel that is the correct approach then may I suggest they apply the same logic they have with the Hema.  So as not to invalidate the effort of the early adopters they should increase the XP required for each rank such that someone needs to have earned the equivalent XP as subsuming all warframes (minus Yareli) to hit rank 10. Then everyone is in the same boat.

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3 hours ago, FelisImpurrator said:

I find it interesting how you're loading the questions by implying the answers you want to hear. It seems to me that you don't really care what I think, but instead only care about making me agree with you. I might have been more sympathetic if not for the dishonesty. So, here we go!

First of all... I'm sorry, but I don't think I've been screwed by my decisions at all. I did it because I either wanted the abilities or wanted them off my checklist and I achieved those goals. At the time I did exactly what I wanted, and got exactly what I wanted. Now, well, I can just invigorate frames and get a whole level in two feeds, I guess, so it doesn't matter all that much?

Subsuming was slated as the primary way to progress Helminth, and nobody expected this finite resource not to be honoured if the cap was extended. See: Mastery Rank accrual while at a rank-up breakpoint. Bad faith arguments don't cut it.

3 hours ago, FelisImpurrator said:

It's A) not a big deal and B) exactly how every level cap increase works, both in almost every game generally and Warframe specifically. Borderlands for instance didn't do it when 2 had level cap increases. Diablo II didn't do it, if I remember correctly. It's not correct of them to say this is MMO logic, because MMOs give skips for one reason: To get people to the raid content faster. We don't have raids (anymore, lmao), so this is a small squad based shooter, and progress works exactly like this in all of those, but people don't rage like this there. What gives? Oh, and Intrinsics were capped before Command. Syndicate rep is capped and we didn't get free rep when the cap got increased. This is an addition, not a change to S#&$ we already had, like the Kuva Nukor (which gave forma BECAUSE it changed something existing, and that's the only reason).

Setting aside the completely incongruous comparisons you've made (while subsequently ignoring my accurate analogies), it was nice of you to shoot yourself in the foot.

How about those people that powerfarmed Intrinsics early? They kept their progress over the cap. Arguably, we knew Command was coming eventually™ so we should have been capped high enough to fill that, considering those early overcappers.

Oh, and progress on Intrinsics AFTER the cap increase was NOT LESS EFFICIENT than progress BEFORE the cap increase. Therein once again is the core incongruity. There was no finite, exhaustible resource of greater progress that was being locked away and ignored.

3 hours ago, FelisImpurrator said:

Also, everything past your first paragraph is a slippery slope fallacy, so I just don't accept making such huge drama based on what-ifs.

It's not a slippery slope, it's just equivalent analogies. Better equivalence than "MMO lol".

3 hours ago, FelisImpurrator said:

1: Your scenario is just wrong, because you're saying they SUBTRACTED XP that was being tracked before intentionally. Did you notice something? No? Well, the difference is that after you hit rank 10 in Helminth, the game stopped tracking all the extra XP. They're literally not subtracting something you already had, they just stopped counting for a while and started again. Also, it's been literally months, it wasn't overnight.

The game does not show tracking the experience, but we expected it kept doing so behind the scenes (as we're investing finite resources).

3 hours ago, FelisImpurrator said:

2: Yeah okay, so? They're not even directly tradeable like that. Are kuva *weapons* tradeable? No. I didn't get compensated for the dozen warframes I sold before Helminth, and it was a grind, but also I'd done most of that literally a year earlier. So, big deal. Well, it sucked for the frame I sold two weeks earlier, but I got my use out of them (and needed the slots) so I didn't "lose" anything, I just "didn't gain as much as I could have", so I don't really care.

Here's how this sounds. "Steam Support, I bought this game at full price last month, but it went on 25% sale already in the Summer Sale. Can I get refunded the difference? I played 200 hours already." Would they ever take you seriously? Hell no.

So you're saying you're happy pouring your time down the drain, so nobody else is allowed to want theirs given fair and equal value.

And here's the key difference between selling warframes pre-Helminth and the scenario I proposed with hounds: One is a new system's introduction. The other is a change to an existing, known system. 

We had no expectation Helminth would be invented, but we do expect Helminth to keep accruing our progress once we're interacting with it and investing the effort to fill out our Subsume slots.

We already know that excess Hounds are given with each and every Sister and we know parts do exist for you to assemble your own, therefore giving those excess Hounds actual purpose in that manner after the fact, without compensating parts, would be unfair to people who gained nothing material from their sale (just doing so to clear out crap from their foundry).

3 hours ago, FelisImpurrator said:

I also provided a solution that was very reasonable, but I see you haven't even touched on it.

Edited in after the fact, so I didn't catch it in what I was already typing out (alongside playing the game).

Depending on figures, sure, that might have ameliorated the issue somewhat, because it does give credit for those irrecoverable investments.

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So I got the "+5 jump resets" on my Grendel and I thought it be fun to mess around and bullet jump everywhere five times. I come to find out it doesn't work like that 

1) It only RESETS 4 times. I get 5 jumps total including my first jump. It's 4 resets: 5 jumps. 

2) Unlike Chroma passive, I cannot use the extra jump as a bullet jump instead. I'm stuck doing the flip in the air giving me no ability to shift momentum. It feels underwhelming. I mean... it's kind of a useless thing to begin with in relation to everything else. 

My suggestion: Allow those jump resets to allow us to bullet jump multiple times without hitting the ground. It would give us the mobility freedom we need. Or... just remove it because that's a waste of an invigoration. 

P.S Just like with Lavos, if there's a terrain shift, you can't do much. If I could bullet jump multiple times in air, I could adjust my jump with terrain shifts. This way, I'm stuck hitting walls. 

Edited by (PSN)Rainbow_Neos1
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On 2021-07-08 at 1:13 PM, UdsUds said:

Have Invigoration to have a small lingering effect. Please.

From the example of Atlas +1000 armor, after the week your Atlas frame will have +250 permanent armor bonus. (That is Non-stackable to other invigoration) 

When you invigorate Atlas again with another set of effects like the "200 strength 75 efficiency" the +250 permanent armor bonus will be removed.

After a week again with the "200 strength 75 efficiency" you'll end up with +50 or less strength lingering.

 

Like some sort of specialty effect on warframes, or like some small kind of progression.

Thanks!

 

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I was excited for Hideous Resistance for some of my max range builds that don't have much power strength.  But I just found out it scales with power strength, and I am disappointed.  It seems like almost all of the Helminth abilities scale with power strength, leading to less diversity among builds.  Sure, there are a few that don't, but most do.

 

Why couldn't Hideous Resistance just grant flat status immunity for a duration?  Would that be overpowered?

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So, about the Parkour Vecolity Invigoration:
I put a duration and parkour velocity invigoration on my Vauban Prime (which is one of my main frames). The duration buff was nice, however because of the parkour vecolity my rolls and bullet jumps literally make so much distance that it skips rooms. Or more common occurence is that I get stuck after performing either action constantly and everywhere. Can't really change direction that much doing either, and simply sprinting feels slow in comparison. 
I know it's my fault I put the invigoration on him, but PSA if you put this on your frame, expect the same result. In open world it's fine, but in normal missions it's more of a hindrance than a buff, and not something you can/would want to get used to since it lasts for a week and it's for one frame. With some effort I can kinda outrun Gauss players now, but in general it's just so uncontrolable and it locked me out of playing my Vauban Prime for an entire week due to how clunky it is.

Can I disable that part of the invigoration, or even the invigoration altogether somehow? (I wouldn't suggest removing this utility buff altogether from the rotation though just because I personally don't like it. Though I do feel it's a bit iffy buff to have in RNG rotation, especially since an invigoration includes two buffs at once.)

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5 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Of course it'd be OP! *abrupt cough that sounds suspiciously like 'Spellbind'* Oh, excuse me, sorry about that :clem:

Fair.  I should probably just use that, honestly.  I was hoping that Hideous Resistance would be an instant cast, though, like Molt.  Spellbind's self targeting isn't as fast as I'd like.  Admittedly, as I had already subsumed every non-prime frame (aside from Yareli), I still don't have hideous resistance unlocked.  I don't even know if it has a casting time.

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Let's get started (i apologize in advance for my poor English)

About Golden Instinct: 1. It was sad to see that it has a radius and it would be nice to remove it altogether. 2. Launched pointer is very, very short-lived and it would be nice if it disappeared only when it leads to specified goal and not before. 3. I propose to make pointer have an action time (30-60 seconds) and while timer is active, pointer will spin around Warframe as at beginning of using this ability and every 5-10 seconds its part will be separated indicating path to nearest object. 4. I suggest replacing current pointer with one that was in Apostasy Prologue quest which is much more convenient to track before player.

Helminth Experience: When i saw that to get new abilities not related to Warframes, pumping five more ranks is required, i was surprised and in exactly same confusion as you are due to fact that excessive experience did not transfer to new ranks, but i have been playing for a very long time and i have accumulated a lot of resources that i immediately began to spend along with monotonous grafting of same abilities many times and as a result, i was able to pump two and a half ranks and i did this on first day, but two days later when resources were almost restored, i decided to try something else and activated one of three weekly buffs and lo and behold one of these adds a lot of experience and as Tesseract7777 already wrote it will not be difficult to gain new ranks you just need patience and by way they give much more experience than for 1-2 Warframes rather for 3-4 and buffs themselves can be used all three once for Standard or Prime.

Weekly Buffs: Personally i liked them but i agree that jumping and sliding are simply not necessary and will only get in way and in general idea is interesting because it makes sense for solo players like me who would like a variety of gameplay thanks to change of Warframes.

Weekly Buffs Segment: It is not so difficult to buy and craft it as it was written earlier ("hint": you just need to play as much as possible if there is such an opportunity, but if there is not, then game is not for you in many plans).

P. S. I'm sorry for bad video :)          (This is Russian version so i apologize for not switching to English)

On first mission of Syndicate, passage with the Golden Instinct from which there is no sense, and on second without and for me it's easier to do it on Limbo, which in end turns out even better than this ability(((

 

Edited by The_Red_Death
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So i gave nearly all the frames to the helmith for nothing thats time and money i cant get back classic [D.E] move bad enough you nerf every 3 months we have to much fun with mods frames arcanes for you to nerf everytime newbies come in whining about everything instead of learning first. that was the whole point of clans of chat room to help people out. so why nerf things but then come back and make the game harder then make it so the frames are weaker and the grind to farm stupid hard. iam a day one player on ps and i feel like you should get back to some of that 2014-2017 warframe i love  and what made it great.

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Golden Instinct is too restricted to be of use. The way it works is quite intuitive to understand but:
1. its function is not guaranteed, my first deploy, it pointed right into solid ground (Uranus deep sea base) which I certainly cannot follow before it disappeared

2. when it works, guiding range is too strictly limited to be useful. I don't expect it to help skip searching altogether but this is like pointing 1 random direction when the targets could be in all directions

3. extremely elaborate acquisition process

4. takes up 1 ability slot

5. no other practical use beside very specific searches

6. moderate (base:50) energy requirement per each use

7. its short-lived appearance

8. cooldown timer (as if it has just made our lives too convenient?????)

...with all the restrictions, it is still "have a small chance to be barely useful" kind of deal

 

Remove some of the excessive restrictions and/or make it passive activation to ACTUALLY HELP improve our search time at all.

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9 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Why couldn't Hideous Resistance just grant flat status immunity for a duration?  Would that be overpowered?

Because there is Spellbind (edit: somebody pointed already sorry)

Edited by UdsUds
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3 hours ago, ntyd1s said:

Golden Instinct is too restricted to be of use. The way it works is quite intuitive to understand but:
1. its function is not guaranteed, my first deploy, it pointed right into solid ground (Uranus deep sea base) which I certainly cannot follow before it disappeared

2. when it works, guiding range is too strictly limited to be useful. I don't expect it to help skip searching altogether but this is like pointing 1 random direction when the targets could be in all directions

3. extremely elaborate acquisition process

4. takes up 1 ability slot

5. no other practical use beside very specific searches

6. moderate (base:50) energy requirement per each use

7. its short-lived appearance

8. cooldown timer (as if it has just made our lives too convenient?????)

...with all the restrictions, it is still "have a small chance to be barely useful" kind of deal

 

Remove some of the excessive restrictions and/or make it passive activation to ACTUALLY HELP improve our search time at all.

It should have been a gear item, or maybe even a sentinel mod. Once you find what you were searching for it's a dead ability.

There's no reason it couldn't have been made a consumable gear item you bought from maroo for 10 cyan stars or something. I have tonnes of filled ayatans and even more stars, least let me use them for something else.

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Executive summary: The current Invigoration system as-implemented has many opportunities to make players feel bad.  I have some suggestions that may help players feel better about interacting with this system.
(edit: slightly reworded some sections to improve clarity)

If none of the three selected frames are desirable (or owned), we feel bad and have to wait a week to further interact with this system.
If the frames are available to use but the buffs don't appeal to us, we feel bad and have to wait a week for more compelling choices.
If the frames are available and the buffs are appealing, we take the invigoration, but then feel bad once it wears out.
If a player wants to utilize the 'buy 10 get one of your choice' mechanic, they need to wait 2-3 weeks between invigorating the frame of choice (even then, are the buffs still random?).
I recognize that randomly providing buffs to players should make them feel good, but it's so unpredictable that it ends up feeling like the player was robbed of the possibility of a buff.

I ask this question genuinely and without malice: what is the purpose of this system?  I know the originally stated intent was to "give players a way to engage with Warframes they may not have used in a while!", but I suspect this was added to collect data on what buffs will make frames used more often, and will only meaningfully influence the frame choice of a very small number of players.  (Again, no cynicism, just trying to make sense of design choices.)  I expect the majority of users will look at this system and either a) wait for the buffs to be available to a frame already of interest to them b) take all the buffs but not use them just to be able to choose the buffed frame later, or c) they will forget they have this available once they max out Helminth rank.

I suspect that the data on the backend will show many players utilizing this system to gain affinity for the Helminth for completions' sake, but likely won't make a meaningful dent in the year-end summary frame choice stats.  How will this data be used?  If people stop interacting with it once Helminth affinity is full only to buff their most-used frame, I feel data-collection-wise we'll be back where we were before it was introduced.  It seems to me that frame usage is largely dictated by which abilities are available on a frame, so the existing subsume/infuse system should already be very useful in identifying which frames/abilities are in need of buffs/nerfs.

By virtue of being introduced to all content, it's implied that the very strong buffs provided by this system have been deemed acceptable for base gameplay (as opposed to the very similar Arbitration buffs, which are also strong and random but very limited in their utility).  While not all buffs combined with all frames are exceeding good combinations, to me it seems implied that the random nature and lack of permanence are the intended counterbalance to the possibility of extremely good combinations.  However, I expect players will feel entitled to the level of power this system provides, especially if they can get a taste of the extremes.

I made some suggestions prior to the release of this system that I think are still relevant (linked below, rather than copy-pasting).  TLDR; giving players more control may make the system feel better as a whole.

If giving players more control over elements of this system seems detrimental to the design goals, I would ask 'why?' - it could certainly be used to min/max a frame, but at some level I feel like it would also give a breath of fresh air to under-utilized frames much like the subsume/infuse system.  More possibilities spawn more ideas and theorycrafting which, even if short-lived, opens a creative space to try new frame combinations and provide data on what people feel would make frames more usable.

In conclusion; random buffs feel bad, more control feels better.
I'd love to hear feedback on the design choices that went into this system, and any critiques on my suggestions.

Thank you for your time and consideration,

  - Robot

 

Edited by Robot_piloting_a_Mech
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here's another angle:

the way to get Helminth XP, is very limited. if there were other/more ways to get it, then atleast there would be some sort of Gameplay avenue. but since it's entirely revolving around waiting for Crafting and Subsuming Timers..... well, having to do a whole bunch more of that, is just adding more tedium and more waiting. interaction with Helminth isn't engaging in some way, it's basically just waiting around.
if you atleast had some features of it that were about playing the game, people wouldn't mind quite as much.

but you should also give people credit for what they already subsumed, as that's only fair. 

 

also, this new Infusion system is far more hidden than necessary. it's not really very reasonable to expect Players to swap to every single Warframe they have every Week and go interact just to see what the buffs are that Week.
make it easier to know what buffs are available. have it show on a Holoscreen next to the entrance to the Helminth room, or something. and/or if it's the same for all Players, put it in Worldstate.

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25 minutes ago, taiiat said:

 

 

also, this new Infusion system is far more hidden than necessary. it's not really very reasonable to expect Players to swap to every single Warframe they have every Week and go interact just to see what the buffs are that Week.
make it easier to know what buffs are available. have it show on a Holoscreen next to the entrance to the Helminth room, or something. and/or if it's the same for all Players, put it in Worldstate.

You can see the three frames on invigoration rotation at the bottom middle of the screen.  Esc... Equipment... Helminth.  There they are, at least on PC.

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1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

You can see the three frames on invigoration rotation at the bottom middle of the screen.  Esc... Equipment... Helminth.  There they are, at least on PC.

oh. i went looking at the thing you interact with for it, seemed like the place that it would be at. just expectation vs reality then, i suppose.

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