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Update 30.5: Helminth Update Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)


[DE]CoreyOnline
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Not giving the exp for frames you needed resources or plat for has been, by far, the most confusing thing possible if you expect people to continue using the helminth system. Why subsume my frames when I get to max rank if I don't particularly see usefulness in their subsumed abilities? Why try out new subsumes if that means in the future I potentially gimp my ability to make newer, more interesting builds in the future? Where's the "conversation" there? 

While everyone else is concerned about invigorating a frame inviting toxicity, I'm more concerned on the idea that they thought this would increase the usage of other frames for people who don't play all of them when the buffs don't explicitly make sense. If my Mag got 200% critical chance for pistols but I don't have any good pistol options where it matters enough for her kit, why would I play her more than I already do? If I get status immunity but my frame's build or kit is designed around not being hit in the first place, how would that incentivize me to play them more? 

Helminth default abilities continue to have this recurring theme of being completely useless in the face of similar options, too niche to use, or too weak for it's unique effect. I will just about never use any of them for more than a joke after testing them, or playing content that I could actually run with only half of my mods equipped in the first place. Hideous Resistance being a prime example: The ability costs too much, has too few base charges and provides nothing against the most deadly element in the game: Toxin. So against infested, the faction with the most debilitating status effects is addition to the amount, just ignore the fact that you spent your energy to cast this mod and one shot you with a grappling hook that's supposed to do minimal damage at 30 meters. Against Grineer, who only have heat slash and puncture, use up all of your charges in seconds. Corpus just decast it. 

At this point, I think I understand why you nerfed things like War Cry and Roar on release. The team is utterly incapable of buffing the niche or simply bad abilities, or creating useful abilities because they feel the need to add hoops to something that could've been plainly useful without them, nor do we want to admit there have been good ideas from the community to do such.

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Invigoration resets at 10 means I need to wait a month for my most used Warframe to get buffed or RNG? Good to rank to 15 but this became the next DNA Stabilizer on a weekly basis. Very dumb, let me buff the Warframe I want to play and not you suggesting through RNG please...

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Please increase invigorations per week to 5 and after 4 invigorations the 5th can be applied to any warframe!

That will make the system way more attractive and people will spend their resources on it! 🤩

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Why do i have to do 10 more randomized invigoration after going through 10 warframe? I thought that it just 10 and then every week we can choose only 1 buff that we can applied to any warframe that we want...

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Golden Instinct's duration is much, much too short (and seemingly unmoddable).

On a frame with any kind of boosted range you can easily hit 400m+ acquisition radius for the ability and yet the duration is only enough to carry it maybe 25m at a time. Add in the 20 second cooldown and it takes minutes to follow one spark to its destination.

This isn't even considering situations like Uranus where there are things that can be found in the underwater sections but you can't cast Golden Instinct because you're in Sharkwing mode, which makes it entirely useless as by the time you've cast it and jumped into the water it's already expired.

Edited by TheSpad
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On 2021-07-06 at 6:48 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

Apparently Invigorations are supposed to give you a lot of xp, so its not like they left you with only a super slow way to progress by infusing abilities over and over or something, ya'll are being way over dramatic. 

Either way, I actually disagree that we should just be gifted levels for logging in. I think that is ridiculous entitlement, and defeats the purpose of playing games to begin with. 

We were early adopters, we knew that xp was "wasted" and we did it anyways. And for early adopting, we got all the benefits of the Helminth system. 

We lost nothing. 

We were not "stabbed in the back" and nothing was taken from us. 

We are just being asked to actually play the game. 

If they just gave ya'll the levels, people would complain about being bored and not having enough to do. I disagree that we should be entitled to new content just because we logged in, I want to earn it. 

 

This guy gets it.
It makes no sense for people to cry that they lost XP - going with their logic, developers wouldn't be allowed to expand any capped system in the future, because the players would be angry that they things that were previously used to max out the system.
Besides, people need to stop acting like they lost the main way to max Helminth. Most, if not all players, maxed Helminth by putting 1 abilitiy onto a frame 1000times, so lets not pretend like DE ruined it. Its childish and entitled.
 

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2 hours ago, TheSpad said:

On a frame with any kind of boosted range you can easily hit 400m+ acquisition radius for the ability and yet the duration is only enough to carry it maybe 25m at a time. Add in the 20 second cooldown and it takes minutes to follow one spark to its destination.

Wow. That's... pretty much a completely useless ability.

400 metres is not enough, not even slightly. The only use I'd have for that is in Orb Vallis, and I have absolutely no idea where to even find the scans that I'm missing. I'm pretty sure that it's bigger than 400m.

And a cooldown? Why? You're already sacrificing one of your abilities for something that won't ever have a single usage in combat. There are exactly zero balancing issues here. I can't think of any justifiable reason why the ability should have this kind of crippling limitation. Especially given that it's at the very end of an extremely long grind chain, and even more especially that we don't get any retroactive XP for feeding frames to helminth or the resources which are required to refill its tanks after eating.

The only message that I'm getting here is that you (DE) are telling us time and time again that we should never touch anything new that you make because you're either going to nerf it away from what the original release promised, or make some other change that invalidates previous effort.

1 hour ago, (PSN)xBlake360 said:

Most, if not all players, maxed Helminth by putting 1 abilitiy onto a frame 1000times

No, definitely not all players. I barely stuck any abilities on to frames. Only a few got a new ability and no way in hell would I waste resources constantly sticking the same thing on again and again. Doing it your way sounds ridiculously inefficient. Pretty much all of my levelling was from feeding frames to the wall and I was quite put out that I was forced to stick abilities on a frame to level up before I reached the "here, have an infinite number of arbitrary 'slots' for eaten frames" level.

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4 hours ago, (PSN)xBlake360 said:

This guy gets it.
It makes no sense for people to cry that they lost XP - going with their logic, developers wouldn't be allowed to expand any capped system in the future, because the players would be angry that they things that were previously used to max out the system.
Besides, people need to stop acting like they lost the main way to max Helminth. Most, if not all players, maxed Helminth by putting 1 abilitiy onto a frame 1000times, so lets not pretend like DE ruined it. Its childish and entitled.

Non-Retroactive Capping from evergreen acquisition is OK. Non-Retroactive Capping from finite expendable resources - that you can keep expending at the cap - is not OK.

 

We were mostly fine with Intrinsics being capped even though we knew Command would eventually exist. It would have been nice if we could pre-farm that extra block, but it wasn't troublesome enough to raise a big fuss. That's even including the sting of the earliest power-farmers getting to keep their over-cap before DE implemented the limit.

We were okay with that because Intrinsics are just Affinity, and you can get it no less easily now than then (more easily, in fact.)

 

We are not fine with Helminth being capped because we cannot Subsume what we have already Subsumed. It is the equivalent of being permanently locked out of Mastery from some gear because you happened to level past a test threshold without doing it. "You'll get there eventually, just wait for more gear to be added than everyone else who didn't play too much at the wrong time" would not be an appropriate response there. "You'll get there eventually, just burn more resources spam-infusing and wait longer for invigoration cycles than everyone who didn't engage with the system too much at the wrong time" is not an appropriate response here.

We are not okay with that because you cannot progress as easily/efficiently after the cap raise as you could before, if you exhausted that resource.
It is expected that players should have equal rates of progress per exhaustible investment, which is not the case if Subsume experience is not accounted retroactively.

 

They can make capped systems in the future all they want, but with a precedent like this, burned players are going to engage with the game less in fear of getting backstabbed again, and frames will sit in the foundry un-Subsumed just in case there's another Helminth cap raise in the future.

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4 hours ago, (PSN)xBlake360 said:

Most, if not all players, maxed Helminth by putting 1 abilitiy onto a frame 1000times, so lets not pretend like DE ruined it. Its childish and entitled.

During the first week of Deimos release, maybe, when you couldn't rush subsumes or boost food preference. Then people realized how many resources they were dumping into Helminth for a meager amount of experience relative to the alternative. Subsuming was and is the more effective way to level it.

Edited by Alpheus
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I know it's up in the air of debate currently and I can side with both sides of the helminth controversy. I think early access does demand some understanding when it comes to handouts given post full release. However, when you make the list of what gives XP, including one time gains that have the potential to be wasted wasted, it's going to feel pretty bad post system expansion knowing you don't have access to larger forms of XP gain that simultaneously knock out more than one bird. In my opinion if Warframe ability unlocks do give XP then it should be an account based XP gain that can't be wasted since those unlocks are account based anyway. Or just remove the XP gain you get from unlocking abilities and incorporate it in a way that isn't limited on top of the other ways.

 

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7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

 

We are not fine with Helminth being capped because we cannot Subsume what we have already Subsumed. It is the equivalent of being permanently locked out of Mastery from some gear because you happened to level past a test threshold without doing it. "You'll get there eventually, just wait for more gear to be added than everyone else who didn't play too much at the wrong time" would not be an appropriate response there. "You'll get there eventually, just burn more resources spam-infusing and wait longer for invigoration cycles than everyone who didn't engage with the system too much at the wrong time" is not an appropriate response here.

 

This is patently incorrect.  Helminth XP does not equal MR.  Me "wasting" my Sevagoth subsume because I had already maxed it out doesn't mean I'm forever a Helminth level lower than a player who adopted the system after this update.  It just means I didn't instantly hit the level 15 cap.  ...And with this week's reset, I have now hit that cap.

 

It's really not a big deal.  So some players got access to Golden Instinct a week before you.  It just doesn't matter.

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1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

This is patently incorrect.  Helminth XP does not equal MR.  Me "wasting" my Sevagoth subsume because I had already maxed it out doesn't mean I'm forever a Helminth level lower than a player who adopted the system after this update.  It just means I didn't instantly hit the level 15 cap.  ...And with this week's reset, I have now hit that cap.

 

It's really not a big deal.  So some players got access to Golden Instinct a week before you.  It just doesn't matter.

It's still the comparable equivalent. You're not forbidden from MR progress if you could miss out some from any given item, it'll just take longer because you'd have to wait for DE to release the next items the inevitably will. Case in point: Founder Primes. We're not incapable of getting to the same rank as full-Founders, but in fringe cases we have sometimes had to wait.

 

Besides, it's the principle of the matter. It's the fact that the feedback is being ignored outright, and the fact that this sets that strong negative precedent for future concerns.

And if you say it doesn't matter that someone gets Rank 15 a little sooner than others (despite engaging with the system less, overall), then it equally wouldn't have mattered if we got credited straight up to Rank 15 when it became available, either, would it?

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8 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

It's still the comparable equivalent. You're not forbidden from MR progress if you could miss out some from any given item, it'll just take longer because you'd have to wait for DE to release the next items the inevitably will. Case in point: Founder Primes. We're not incapable of getting to the same rank as full-Founders, but in fringe cases we have sometimes had to wait.

 

Besides, it's the principle of the matter. It's the fact that the feedback is being ignored outright, and the fact that this sets that strong negative precedent for future concerns.

And if you say it doesn't matter that someone gets Rank 15 a little sooner than others (despite engaging with the system less, overall), then it equally wouldn't have mattered if we got credited straight up to Rank 15 when it became available, either, would it?

Your comparison remains erroneous.  There is technically an unlimited amount of Helminth XP, at least until you hit a cap.  MR doesn't work that way at all.  The only similarity is that both MR and Helminth XP feature some degree of visible progress bars.  I get that it's tempting to compare the two because maybe you wasted your Sevagoth Helminth XP and can never get XP from subsuming Sevagoth again, for example.  But the comparison falls apart because you could just get the Sevagoth amount of XP from doing something else.  This isn't how MR works.  If I decide I don't want to farm Sevagoth or buy him, that MR is irreplaceable.  I can't just craft another Rhino and rank it up to replace that lost Sevagoth MR.  But you know that already.

 

You can complain all you want about negative precedents, and even bold them for extra measure.  But this precedent has existed for as long as I've been playing the game (Limbo Prime access).  DE gets accused of creating content islands because every new update requires either player engagement or platinum to max out.  They carefully limit what we can do ahead of time because it is in their interest for us to remain invested.

 

If you're upset, I recommend doing the invigorations and trying out your dusty old frames.  I hadn't used Protea or Zephyr much until I started interacting with the new Helminth system, and now I'm brainstorming some new builds for them that will remain effective even after the invigorations wear off.  I'm not sure if the resource cost of invigorations will ever become fatiguing for me, but I'm enjoying it for now.

 

 

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7 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Your comparison remains erroneous.  There is technically an unlimited amount of Helminth XP, at least until you hit a cap.  MR doesn't work that way at all.  The only similarity is that both MR and Helminth XP feature some degree of visible progress bars.  I get that it's tempting to compare the two because maybe you wasted your Sevagoth Helminth XP and can never get XP from subsuming Sevagoth again, for example.  But the comparison falls apart because you could just get the Sevagoth amount of XP from doing something else.  This isn't how MR works.  If I decide I don't want to farm Sevagoth or buy him, that MR is irreplaceable.  I can't just craft another Rhino and rank it up to replace that lost Sevagoth MR.  But you know that already.

You can get the same progress of MR from the next item that is added, though. We can subsume the next frame that is released. The only difference here is that we do not know if or when there will be a functional cap to MR (now we are past 30 via Legendary Ranks).

Comparative analogies do not have to be 100% accurate to help highlight the point being made in regards to the first entity. A disparity in progression still exists in favour of the people who invested less, which should not ever be the case.

A more questionable inaccuracy of comparison would be if I attempted to draw the Helminth issue against Nightwave, under the hypothetical conceit that tasks completed on a capped Nightwave would not be counted retroactively - in which case the 'correct' play would be to leave tasks uncompleted then recover after a cap extension for quick progress - but unlike MR, the seasons have terminal expiry that you cannot indefinitely 'wait longer to reach' and therefore the failing to account retroactive post-cap progress would be able to bring an absolutely permanent loss rather than simply disparate time delay.

7 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

You can complain all you want about negative precedents, and even bold them for extra measure.  But this precedent has existed for as long as I've been playing the game (Limbo Prime access).  DE gets accused of creating content islands because every new update requires either player engagement or platinum to max out.  They carefully limit what we can do ahead of time because it is in their interest for us to remain invested.

Yet we're now going to have people engage less with the system because of this issue. They will not subsume nor try infusing abilities for which they do not see an immediate, overpowering use case, and thus protect themselves from a second shortfall in the event Helminth gains another rank extension. It is not a positive impetus.

7 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

If you're upset, I recommend doing the invigorations and trying out your dusty old frames.  I hadn't used Protea or Zephyr much until I started interacting with the new Helminth system, and now I'm brainstorming some new builds for them that will remain effective even after the invigorations wear off.  I'm not sure if the resource cost of invigorations will ever become fatiguing for me, but I'm enjoying it for now.

I have been invigorating, but that's beside the point. Passive buffs that expire don't incentivise much in the way of developing new builds, even less so here than having a config for each frame just to capitalise on them being beefed up in Arbitrations. Besides, the game-changers are diluted away with combinations like "weapon damage and parkour velocity".

 

But it's not "can I get to 15", it's "why am I getting to 15 slower when I invested more, and what other systems may I get penalised for playing more than I strictly need to in the future?"

Edited by TheLexiConArtist
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On 2021-07-25 at 10:34 AM, UdsUds said:

I see what you mean but there are other sustain you can subsume instead. 

High STR/Low Dura = Elemental Ward (Heat); Base Stats = Gloom; Base on %HP = Blood Altar; Healing Well etc..

Voracious Metastasis is unique as it also restores energy without the need of range mods unlike Energy Vampire.

That's the thing though. When it comes to healing, all the other ones are clearly superior. The energy restore is so minimal and only beneficial if you have a LOW efficiency build because it scales on the amount of energy used. The energy restore is also affected by duration in a bad way, meaning that just to make that one power useful in a way, you need low duration and low efficiency build, which in itself makes it quite bad as a power when there's much better alternatives that doesn't require so much sacrifice.

Giving it more of a linear scaling will make the power much more useful, both for yourself and your allies, without ever overshadowing the other powers like Gloom and EV. Right now, its "unique" aspect is just bringing it down in usefulness.

Edited by Casardis
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I'm quite confused as to what this new Invigoration system is supposed to do:
If I like a frame and can play well with it, I do so.
If a frame is to weak / underpowered / does not fit my playstyle then an Invigoration will enable me to play it on "easy mode" for a week before I put it back in the closet to rot.
If a frame I like comes up for an Invigoration, then I'll enjoy the additional boost for a week and will be ever so slightly disappointed with the reduced performance after that time is up.

My main problem is the randomness of both the invigoration target and the invigoration effect: unless I get incredibly lucky I will never be able to test out the specific combination I would like to try; and even if I save up for the "choose your own" invigoration that effect will be gone after a week, with no way to reach that power level any other way!

None of these seem like an actual improvement and will in fact cause frustration far more often more than fun.

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Helminth's new abilities:

  • They suck...
  • They don't really offer anything we want (Damage, Healing, Armor*, Mobility, Shields)
  • Parasitic armor is nice, but pretty much only 1 frame uses it for that 1 niche scenario
  • The new abilities are too restrictive (arbitrary restrictions and you cant even tell which stats are not moddable)
  • Golden instinct SHOULD NOT EXIST. Worst non-ability ever thanks to its crazy artificial and arbitrary limitations
  • Didn't get the exp for pre-subsumed frames despite a simple script even I could probably write to give back everyone's lost EXP

Helminth's Invigorations:

  • Remove the weighting system:
    • We want to play the game the way we want to, not how the developers dictate
  • The random rng stats are kinda lame:
    • 5 jump resets... wow
    • 250 Secondary damage on Excalibur? if only this was Mesa
    • 250 Melee damage on Mesa? if on this was Excalibur
  • 10 invigorations for 1 Frame override
    • Could have at least made it 9th invigorations so it's divisible by 3
    • Could have made the stats at least something we could choose if we did 10 trashy invigorations to get them
    • The counter makes it impossible to min-max redeeming overrides. If only override was independent of the existing 3 random rolls, then we could collect our coffee stamps without it being tied to our weekly Tim Hortons subscription credit cards
  • They last for only 1 week...
    • I only play 3 warframes in this entire game, despite having all frames maxed and fully formad.
    • I will not play any other frame because the invigoration buffs are not (and I emphasize) ON THE CHARACTERS I WANT TO PLAY
    • I wish there was a permanent customizable invigoration slot where I can just lock in my choice for the week and customize the bonuses. Feed helminth taxes that I can't Yoshi out of, and play the game how I want to.
  • Being told which frames to play because of invigoration buffs is disrespectful
    • If I wanted to be told what to do, we'd get a job and get paid to do what we're told.
    • The frames being RNG on top of stats being RNG really tells me that without effort, DE is giving us something with great potential, without planning, thought or effort in its implementation. Please fix the bad RNG elements of Warframe. 
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On 2021-07-25 at 4:46 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Sickening Pulse is rather underwhelming with elements other than Heat. It doesn't count crits or elemental mods for any of the other DoT procs.

The description is very misleading too. You'd think that it would double the number of Toxin/Slash procs, but all it does is create a single new one.

Oh look. Another reason DE needs to go back and finish (give them credit for the already-performed improvements though, thanks DE, legitimately and unironically!) Elemental and Physical damage/procs so that they're all actually approximately equal in effectiveness, so that they don't have to pick-and-choose how different types are affected by things, so that they can have simpler and more accurate descriptions and be more intuitively used/understood.

On 2021-07-26 at 10:26 AM, (PSN)xBlake360 said:

This guy gets it.
It makes no sense for people to cry that they lost XP - going with their logic, developers wouldn't be allowed to expand any capped system in the future, because the players would be angry that they things that were previously used to max out the system.
Besides, people need to stop acting like they lost the main way to max Helminth. Most, if not all players, maxed Helminth by putting 1 abilitiy onto a frame 1000times, so lets not pretend like DE ruined it. Its childish and entitled.
 

On the contrary, clearly neither of you get it. Listen closely. ONE-TIME OBTAINABLE EXP. This is what the majority of us in the thread are ticked off about. Let's break it down.

A-Tier) Invigorations (best exp gain, but for temporary benefit)

B-Tier) Subsume (originally-best exp gain, now second-best, but offers permanent benefit of additional options available)

C-Tier) Infuse (worst exp gain, but necessary in early Helminth levels to progress until you can consistently gain levels exclusively via Subsumes, and offers optionally permanent benefits/options via Warframe customizations)

Other-Tier) Feeding (had to be done before/after ANY of the above 3 options, non-component)

Anyone who remotely cares about their time and efficiency did the bare minimum of anything besides Subsuming, because why waste resources you don't have to. Subsumes give you a permanently available option, and were the best source of gaining levels. You could only do them once. Between the mandatory Infusions and Feeding, people found themselves at the previous max rank of 10 by the time they subsumed about half of all available Warframes (you know this is true or nobody would be complaining, SOMEBODY feel free to give an exact number, but don't nitpick about whether it took 20 Warframes or 30 Warframes minimum). That leaves (approximately) HALF of all Warframe Subsumes' experience component WASTED. DE made the (extremely mockingly-delivered) conscious decision to force us to comparatively waste our time and resources, drawing bogus comparisons to MMO level caps. In MMO level caps, however, everyone has the ability to gain EXP equally as efficiently as before the cap, as after the cap. If post-cap content is more efficient to gain levels and people use it to get to/past the previous cap faster, oh well, everybody had the same opportunity to gain levels quickly after it was uncapped. HERE, DE has made the still-second-most-lucrative, ONE-TIME spendable EXP gain source, permanently wasted, without telling us in advance that there would be additional content to grind for. We knew Command Intrinsics were coming, and DE allowed players to pre-farm intrinsics beyond the max quantity necessary for ranking the currently available categories to max. They screwed over some players there too though, where if they actually applied all of their intrinsics, they could earn no more. I personally think that was the wrong decision, but the decision with Helminth is even worse because grinding for Intrinsics is just as fast as before, whereas here we're actively slowed down by the non-repeatable nature of Subsuming.

Do you both get the picture now? DE actively sabotaged players that engaged with the system ahead of time. We're not whining about every single repeatable Infusion being wasted. We're upset at actively being sabotaged. DE is telling us they will let us spend platinum on Warframes, on Boosters, and/or time on grinding resources/Warframes, and then will adjust the game so that our previous investment was diminished or invalidated.

On 2021-07-25 at 7:37 PM, BlazingCeruleanWaters said:

Not giving the exp for frames you needed resources or plat for has been, by far, the most confusing thing possible if you expect people to continue using the helminth system. Why subsume my frames when I get to max rank if I don't particularly see usefulness in their subsumed abilities? Why try out new subsumes if that means in the future I potentially gimp my ability to make newer, more interesting builds in the future? Where's the "conversation" there? 

While everyone else is concerned about invigorating a frame inviting toxicity, I'm more concerned on the idea that they thought this would increase the usage of other frames for people who don't play all of them when the buffs don't explicitly make sense. If my Mag got 200% critical chance for pistols but I don't have any good pistol options where it matters enough for her kit, why would I play her more than I already do? If I get status immunity but my frame's build or kit is designed around not being hit in the first place, how would that incentivize me to play them more? 

Helminth default abilities continue to have this recurring theme of being completely useless in the face of similar options, too niche to use, or too weak for it's unique effect. I will just about never use any of them for more than a joke after testing them, or playing content that I could actually run with only half of my mods equipped in the first place. Hideous Resistance being a prime example: The ability costs too much, has too few base charges and provides nothing against the most deadly element in the game: Toxin. So against infested, the faction with the most debilitating status effects is addition to the amount, just ignore the fact that you spent your energy to cast this mod and one shot you with a grappling hook that's supposed to do minimal damage at 30 meters. Against Grineer, who only have heat slash and puncture, use up all of your charges in seconds. Corpus just decast it. 

At this point, I think I understand why you nerfed things like War Cry and Roar on release. The team is utterly incapable of buffing the niche or simply bad abilities, or creating useful abilities because they feel the need to add hoops to something that could've been plainly useful without them, nor do we want to admit there have been good ideas from the community to do such.

+1 on them scaring us from fully engaging with the system and Subsuming all Warframes, making us choose between completionism of Subsume options, with efficiency in getting the next future expansion of Helminth Abilities.

+1 on non-Warframe-specific buffs making us play a specific Warframe for buffs not at all related to the Warframe. I'm sitting on an option for Grendel, that gives 250% melee damage and 75% reload speed. This will just arbitrarily buff ANY Warframe's usage stats in my profile, and in DE's analytics, if the frame happens to get non-frame-related buffs that I'd enjoy on any frame. additional +1 to dumb buffs. HOW did DE forget energy-less Warframes existed, and allowed Invigorations to boost energy max or regen??? Why will I want gun buffs on melee-oriented frames, or vice versa, or buffs that improve survivability on Warframes that avoid taking any damage or being seen in the first place? Why are these buffs so extreme but so temporary?? I'd far rather have them be month-long buffs with only 1/4 of the effectiveness, for the same amount of resources. +75% sprint speed Gauss is going to feel like crack while the buff lasts, but it might ruin normally-modded Gauss builds for me in the future. And as other players have pointed out, this just adds more power creep, and more potential for elitism in the game. "Only party up if you have a +200% power strength invigorated Wisp for Motes", etc.

+1 on Helminth abilities needing to not be barely-sidegrades or outright downgrades to existing Warframe Subsume abilities. It's completely expected that not every Helminth/Subsume ability should be an improvement of any similar existing abilities a given Warframe has, but ALL infusable abilities, and honestly EVERY Warframe ability, should be a decently unique and somewhat consistently compelling option, with the exception of a few mild/minor redundancies or arguable downgrades in specific cases (such as replacing Gauss's signature mobility ability Mach Rush with Infested Mobility or Firewalker, or doubling up on them, which would be at the expense of the collective flexibility and diversity of his kit).

+1 on "why DE nerfed War Cry and Roar and Larva and Quiver, etc". It's totally bogus that the Warframes in question have worse abilities that are arguably more interesting, that were not given the Well of Life or Airburst treatment of making the baseline ability more useful. And that there are other non-nerfed Infusable abilities that are considered jokes because of how badly they fare because of the game's fundamental current designs/objectives, such as Mind Control or Decoy. If all 4 of Ivara's Quiver rotations were too potent, why on earth didn't we get the fun and cool (and NOT OP) Dark-Sector callback of an ability in the form of Ivara's Navigator ability? Remote-controlled weapon projectiles/throws are not Ivara's most OP ability, but it could've been a lot of fun, with non-OP minor synergies with other abilities, such as throwing Garuda's blood-ball, or remote-deployment of Vauban's or Protea's various Throwables, for tactical edges or simply improved accuracy. We could have seen Valkyr's Ripline be chosen and updated to have far more improved mobility functionality, giving everyone spiderman web-swinging as an option. Rhino's Charge could have been made more interesting or effective with baseline improvements such as "goring" or "hemorrhaging" aka armor stripping or (internal) slash procs, or stunning enemies being charged through. Lots of fun possibilities abound, but they chose some of the most meta/OP options, nerfing them arbitrarily/inconsistently until they feel irrelevant or unlike their original ability (Grendel's Feast), or despite the fact that their sheer innate scaling (affecting weapon damage, or grouping-up enemies) will make them solid picks even when they're made to be half or less than half as effective as they are on their native Warframe. Choosing Meta/OP abilities, so much so that you have to make them exclusive to like abilities (Eclipse/Ward/Roar/Warcry etc) and/or nerf them, just highlights the more poorly-chosen/not-buffed-enough/poorly-designed abilities like Mind Control or Decoy or Golden Instinct.

8 hours ago, PontifexPrimus1 said:

I'm quite confused as to what this new Invigoration system is supposed to do:
If I like a frame and can play well with it, I do so.
If a frame is to weak / underpowered / does not fit my playstyle then an Invigoration will enable me to play it on "easy mode" for a week before I put it back in the closet to rot.
If a frame I like comes up for an Invigoration, then I'll enjoy the additional boost for a week and will be ever so slightly disappointed with the reduced performance after that time is up.

My main problem is the randomness of both the invigoration target and the invigoration effect: unless I get incredibly lucky I will never be able to test out the specific combination I would like to try; and even if I save up for the "choose your own" invigoration that effect will be gone after a week, with no way to reach that power level any other way!

None of these seem like an actual improvement and will in fact cause frustration far more often more than fun.

Oh, these are a bunch of the things I was also feeling. +1'd

 

And DE is still seemingly exclusively answering only a very small few bug reports in a very small number of threads, and is not engaging with their megathreads practically at all. DE, you can selectively pick and choose what to respond to, and leave your less-popular excuses or reasoning behind various decisions unsaid. That's just politics, no need to expose every uncomfortable truth, we know some of your decisions will have to factor in profit and manufactured discontent/impatience. Responding to nothing, though, makes it look like you either
A) don't care what we think
or
B) none of your excuses or reasoning behind decisions in this update, or lack of adoption of suggestions/feedback, will be popular, and you're just waiting for us to lose steam/conviction before making the next decision that screws over early adopters, detracts from the gameplay balance, and provides another shiny new cash-only cosmetic packs and/or plat and/or forma-sinks.

DE, you turn on a dime on 1 Conclave player's feedback in order to "respect Conclave player's efforts/time" and removed Syndicate Medallion's applicability to Conclave standing, but you ignore pages upon pages of people exhaustively outlining how unfair it is to have us lose out on 1-time-usable Helminth EXP, among other valid criticisms?
You make a ridiculous augment to "fix" a Warframe to pander to the playstyle of arguably the most toxic Warframe streamer out there, but are committing to doing "no more Warframe reworks" even though Saryn and Wukong's reworks have made them ubiquitous across the game?
You convert Itzal's Blink into a buff across all Archwings, cementing Archwings as superior mobility and combat alternatives to K-Drives, but then you release a Warframe reliant upon the inferior mobility option of a K-Drive for survivability, without addressing many people's valid criticisms of K-Drives, and with the Warframe in such poor shape that people's analysis of her paints a picture of a Warframe whose post-release-buffed state still pegs her as debatably one of the least fun, least effective Warframes currently in the game.

Please start meaningfully interacting with and taking feedback from your playerbase again. It feels like you're ignoring 99% of all good feedback, and implementing 1% of it many months too late to gain any good will from it.

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I am only going to discuss Golden Instinct, because it desperately needs a buff and some love.

Issues:

  1. Does not work on caches
  2. Has no modification or configuration options so people can use it to detect rare resource piles. (argon, orokin cells etc.)
  3. Path finding has always been a pain in warframe, this ability just makes it even clearer
  4. It's duration is to short, either reduce the cooldown, add duration modifier or perhaps make it a toggle with a small drain?
  5. I really hoped it would finally become bearable to gather those notoriously rare grineer captura crates on earth (yes I still haven't found ANY even though I've ran dozens of earth sabotage missions looking for the caches and any other rares I might encounter)
  6. It is WAY to expensive for the extremely limited and extremely short/little amount of help it gives.
Edited by Quimoth
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14 hours ago, Quimoth said:

I am only going to discuss Golden Instinct, because it desperately needs a buff and some love.

Issues:

  1. Does not work on caches
  2. Has no modification or configuration options so people can use it to detect rare resource piles. (argon, orokin cells etc.)
  3. Path finding has always been a pain in warframe, this ability just makes it even clearer
  4. It's duration is to short, either reduce the cooldown, add duration modifier or perhaps make it a toggle with a small drain?
  5. I really hoped it would finally become bearable to gather those notoriously rare grineer captura crates on earth (yes I still haven't found ANY even though I've ran dozens of earth sabotage missions looking for the caches and any other rares I might encounter)
  6. It is WAY to expensive for the extremely limited and extremely short/little amount of help it gives.

Bear in mind also that this is a WARFRAME ABILITY SLOT being dedicated to loot-finding. If we're giving up DPS, CC, Stealth, Mobility, Utility, and other types of Warframe Abilities for this slot, it shouldn't be at what it's meant for more often than it's useful.

If you're putting a convenience feature in the game, don't half-ass it so badly that it's a complete exercise in frustration to utilize. Considering how BROKEN pathfinding and waypointing is in Warframe, the ability needs to be balanced against the most common circumstances. In this case, the common circumstance is that the pathfinding is broken often enough that the spark will send you the literal wrong direction in certain cases, going up/down staircases just to run out of duration, when they were about to loop back around and show you the proper direction!

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On 2021-07-29 at 3:16 AM, Grav_Starstrider said:

Oh look. Another reason DE needs to go back and finish (give them credit for the already-performed improvements though, thanks DE, legitimately and unironically!) Elemental and Physical damage/procs so that they're all actually approximately equal in effectiveness, so that they don't have to pick-and-choose how different types are affected by things, so that they can have simpler and more accurate descriptions and be more intuitively used/understood.

On the contrary, clearly neither of you get it. Listen closely. ONE-TIME OBTAINABLE EXP. This is what the majority of us in the thread are ticked off about. Let's break it down.

A-Tier) Invigorations (best exp gain, but for temporary benefit)

B-Tier) Subsume (originally-best exp gain, now second-best, but offers permanent benefit of additional options available)

C-Tier) Infuse (worst exp gain, but necessary in early Helminth levels to progress until you can consistently gain levels exclusively via Subsumes, and offers optionally permanent benefits/options via Warframe customizations)

Other-Tier) Feeding (had to be done before/after ANY of the above 3 options, non-component)

Anyone who remotely cares about their time and efficiency did the bare minimum of anything besides Subsuming, because why waste resources you don't have to. Subsumes give you a permanently available option, and were the best source of gaining levels. You could only do them once. Between the mandatory Infusions and Feeding, people found themselves at the previous max rank of 10 by the time they subsumed about half of all available Warframes (you know this is true or nobody would be complaining, SOMEBODY feel free to give an exact number, but don't nitpick about whether it took 20 Warframes or 30 Warframes minimum). That leaves (approximately) HALF of all Warframe Subsumes' experience component WASTED. DE made the (extremely mockingly-delivered) conscious decision to force us to comparatively waste our time and resources, drawing bogus comparisons to MMO level caps. In MMO level caps, however, everyone has the ability to gain EXP equally as efficiently as before the cap, as after the cap. If post-cap content is more efficient to gain levels and people use it to get to/past the previous cap faster, oh well, everybody had the same opportunity to gain levels quickly after it was uncapped. HERE, DE has made the still-second-most-lucrative, ONE-TIME spendable EXP gain source, permanently wasted, without telling us in advance that there would be additional content to grind for. We knew Command Intrinsics were coming, and DE allowed players to pre-farm intrinsics beyond the max quantity necessary for ranking the currently available categories to max. They screwed over some players there too though, where if they actually applied all of their intrinsics, they could earn no more. I personally think that was the wrong decision, but the decision with Helminth is even worse because grinding for Intrinsics is just as fast as before, whereas here we're actively slowed down by the non-repeatable nature of Subsuming.

Do you both get the picture now? DE actively sabotaged players that engaged with the system ahead of time. We're not whining about every single repeatable Infusion being wasted. We're upset at actively being sabotaged. DE is telling us they will let us spend platinum on Warframes, on Boosters, and/or time on grinding resources/Warframes, and then will adjust the game so that our previous investment was diminished or invalidated.

+1 on them scaring us from fully engaging with the system and Subsuming all Warframes, making us choose between completionism of Subsume options, with efficiency in getting the next future expansion of Helminth Abilities.

+1 on non-Warframe-specific buffs making us play a specific Warframe for buffs not at all related to the Warframe. I'm sitting on an option for Grendel, that gives 250% melee damage and 75% reload speed. This will just arbitrarily buff ANY Warframe's usage stats in my profile, and in DE's analytics, if the frame happens to get non-frame-related buffs that I'd enjoy on any frame. additional +1 to dumb buffs. HOW did DE forget energy-less Warframes existed, and allowed Invigorations to boost energy max or regen??? Why will I want gun buffs on melee-oriented frames, or vice versa, or buffs that improve survivability on Warframes that avoid taking any damage or being seen in the first place? Why are these buffs so extreme but so temporary?? I'd far rather have them be month-long buffs with only 1/4 of the effectiveness, for the same amount of resources. +75% sprint speed Gauss is going to feel like crack while the buff lasts, but it might ruin normally-modded Gauss builds for me in the future. And as other players have pointed out, this just adds more power creep, and more potential for elitism in the game. "Only party up if you have a +200% power strength invigorated Wisp for Motes", etc.

+1 on Helminth abilities needing to not be barely-sidegrades or outright downgrades to existing Warframe Subsume abilities. It's completely expected that not every Helminth/Subsume ability should be an improvement of any similar existing abilities a given Warframe has, but ALL infusable abilities, and honestly EVERY Warframe ability, should be a decently unique and somewhat consistently compelling option, with the exception of a few mild/minor redundancies or arguable downgrades in specific cases (such as replacing Gauss's signature mobility ability Mach Rush with Infested Mobility or Firewalker, or doubling up on them, which would be at the expense of the collective flexibility and diversity of his kit).

+1 on "why DE nerfed War Cry and Roar and Larva and Quiver, etc". It's totally bogus that the Warframes in question have worse abilities that are arguably more interesting, that were not given the Well of Life or Airburst treatment of making the baseline ability more useful. And that there are other non-nerfed Infusable abilities that are considered jokes because of how badly they fare because of the game's fundamental current designs/objectives, such as Mind Control or Decoy. If all 4 of Ivara's Quiver rotations were too potent, why on earth didn't we get the fun and cool (and NOT OP) Dark-Sector callback of an ability in the form of Ivara's Navigator ability? Remote-controlled weapon projectiles/throws are not Ivara's most OP ability, but it could've been a lot of fun, with non-OP minor synergies with other abilities, such as throwing Garuda's blood-ball, or remote-deployment of Vauban's or Protea's various Throwables, for tactical edges or simply improved accuracy. We could have seen Valkyr's Ripline be chosen and updated to have far more improved mobility functionality, giving everyone spiderman web-swinging as an option. Rhino's Charge could have been made more interesting or effective with baseline improvements such as "goring" or "hemorrhaging" aka armor stripping or (internal) slash procs, or stunning enemies being charged through. Lots of fun possibilities abound, but they chose some of the most meta/OP options, nerfing them arbitrarily/inconsistently until they feel irrelevant or unlike their original ability (Grendel's Feast), or despite the fact that their sheer innate scaling (affecting weapon damage, or grouping-up enemies) will make them solid picks even when they're made to be half or less than half as effective as they are on their native Warframe. Choosing Meta/OP abilities, so much so that you have to make them exclusive to like abilities (Eclipse/Ward/Roar/Warcry etc) and/or nerf them, just highlights the more poorly-chosen/not-buffed-enough/poorly-designed abilities like Mind Control or Decoy or Golden Instinct.

Oh, these are a bunch of the things I was also feeling. +1'd

 

And DE is still seemingly exclusively answering only a very small few bug reports in a very small number of threads, and is not engaging with their megathreads practically at all. DE, you can selectively pick and choose what to respond to, and leave your less-popular excuses or reasoning behind various decisions unsaid. That's just politics, no need to expose every uncomfortable truth, we know some of your decisions will have to factor in profit and manufactured discontent/impatience. Responding to nothing, though, makes it look like you either
A) don't care what we think
or
B) none of your excuses or reasoning behind decisions in this update, or lack of adoption of suggestions/feedback, will be popular, and you're just waiting for us to lose steam/conviction before making the next decision that screws over early adopters, detracts from the gameplay balance, and provides another shiny new cash-only cosmetic packs and/or plat and/or forma-sinks.

DE, you turn on a dime on 1 Conclave player's feedback in order to "respect Conclave player's efforts/time" and removed Syndicate Medallion's applicability to Conclave standing, but you ignore pages upon pages of people exhaustively outlining how unfair it is to have us lose out on 1-time-usable Helminth EXP, among other valid criticisms?
You make a ridiculous augment to "fix" a Warframe to pander to the playstyle of arguably the most toxic Warframe streamer out there, but are committing to doing "no more Warframe reworks" even though Saryn and Wukong's reworks have made them ubiquitous across the game?
You convert Itzal's Blink into a buff across all Archwings, cementing Archwings as superior mobility and combat alternatives to K-Drives, but then you release a Warframe reliant upon the inferior mobility option of a K-Drive for survivability, without addressing many people's valid criticisms of K-Drives, and with the Warframe in such poor shape that people's analysis of her paints a picture of a Warframe whose post-release-buffed state still pegs her as debatably one of the least fun, least effective Warframes currently in the game.

Please start meaningfully interacting with and taking feedback from your playerbase again. It feels like you're ignoring 99% of all good feedback, and implementing 1% of it many months too late to gain any good will from it.

I don't completely agree. Yes, subsuming may have given the best amount of exp for Helminth and yes, those who didn't subsume all of the frames before the update may benefit from now, but it doesn't mean those who already subsumed all frames are completely screwed up. It isn't the best scenario, but people are acting like DE stole their houses and all the money used to build it, while in reality, it's a matter of a week to reach Helminth level cap again.

Again, going by this logic, whenever a developer makes a system with one-time obtainable exp, he cannot expand the system, because that would piss everyone off. I disagree. There are many ways to get exp for Helminth, subsuming is just one of them. I just don't get why players are so angry at such a small thing - if you had enough resources to subsume all frames, you shouldnt have any problems to max the Helminth now (especially since Invigorations, which are basically free, give a ton of exp).

I subsumed most frames before this update and I dont feel backstabbed at all. Any veteran can max the Helminth easily, with or without the "wasted" exp from subsumed frames before the update.

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On 2021-07-26 at 8:48 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Non-Retroactive Capping from evergreen acquisition is OK. Non-Retroactive Capping from finite expendable resources - that you can keep expending at the cap - is not OK.

 

We were mostly fine with Intrinsics being capped even though we knew Command would eventually exist. It would have been nice if we could pre-farm that extra block, but it wasn't troublesome enough to raise a big fuss. That's even including the sting of the earliest power-farmers getting to keep their over-cap before DE implemented the limit.

We were okay with that because Intrinsics are just Affinity, and you can get it no less easily now than then (more easily, in fact.)

 

We are not fine with Helminth being capped because we cannot Subsume what we have already Subsumed. It is the equivalent of being permanently locked out of Mastery from some gear because you happened to level past a test threshold without doing it. "You'll get there eventually, just wait for more gear to be added than everyone else who didn't play too much at the wrong time" would not be an appropriate response there. "You'll get there eventually, just burn more resources spam-infusing and wait longer for invigoration cycles than everyone who didn't engage with the system too much at the wrong time" is not an appropriate response here.

We are not okay with that because you cannot progress as easily/efficiently after the cap raise as you could before, if you exhausted that resource.
It is expected that players should have equal rates of progress per exhaustible investment, which is not the case if Subsume experience is not accounted retroactively.

 

They can make capped systems in the future all they want, but with a precedent like this, burned players are going to engage with the game less in fear of getting backstabbed again, and frames will sit in the foundry un-Subsumed just in case there's another Helminth cap raise in the future.

You are missing the point.

Subsuming IS NOT the only way to get Helminth EXP. Sure, those who didnt subsume all frames before the update can benefit from this more, but it doesnt mean those who did subsume all are completely ruined.

Really, I would understand this reasoning, if Helminth had 100levels and each frame would give out like 5 levels, then it would be reasonable, since the grind without it may have been too long. But now? Helminth level cap just got raised by 5 levels - if you use invigorations + spend some resources on testing abilities, you will reach level cap in no time.

There are bigger problems veterans should be concerned about (lack of meaningful endgame rewards, DE not being able to balance stuff, since there isnt an endgame to balance it around, lack of melee 3.0 phase 3 and so on), this Helminth case isn't one of them. It's almost as bad as when some people got so entitled that they were complaining that Helminth is locked behind too low MR (even though MR doesn't define veterans, really, it could be locked behind MR0 and nothing would be changed, players would still need to farm to know how to use it correctly).

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6 hours ago, (PSN)xBlake360 said:

You are missing the point.

Subsuming IS NOT the only way to get Helminth EXP. Sure, those who didnt subsume all frames before the update can benefit from this more, but it doesnt mean those who did subsume all are completely ruined.

Really, I would understand this reasoning, if Helminth had 100levels and each frame would give out like 5 levels, then it would be reasonable, since the grind without it may have been too long. But now? Helminth level cap just got raised by 5 levels - if you use invigorations + spend some resources on testing abilities, you will reach level cap in no time.

No, you are missing the point. Your 'argument' boils down to "I don't mind personally so I assert nobody is allowed to mind", because the rest we've already covered.

Also, this:

6 hours ago, (PSN)xBlake360 said:

Again, going by this logic, whenever a developer makes a system with one-time obtainable exp, he cannot expand the system, because that would piss everyone off.

Is the flimsiest strawman argument imaginable. The exact nature of finite exhaustible resources means that it is immediately possible to credit their investment. There's no problem with raising the cap, so long as in doing so you credit the investments your players made so they aren't directly disadvantaged as a result of engaging with the system.

We should not have to wait for and invest in Invigorations, burning up more resources and time than those who could still Subsume because they are not mutually exclusive, you get to do both concurrently.

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13 hours ago, (PSN)xBlake360 said:

I don't completely agree. Yes, subsuming may have given the best amount of exp for Helminth and yes, those who didn't subsume all of the frames before the update may benefit from now, but it doesn't mean those who already subsumed all frames are completely screwed up. It isn't the best scenario, but people are acting like DE stole their houses and all the money used to build it, while in reality, it's a matter of a week to reach Helminth level cap again.

Again, going by this logic, whenever a developer makes a system with one-time obtainable exp, he cannot expand the system, because that would piss everyone off. I disagree. There are many ways to get exp for Helminth, subsuming is just one of them. I just don't get why players are so angry at such a small thing - if you had enough resources to subsume all frames, you shouldnt have any problems to max the Helminth now (especially since Invigorations, which are basically free, give a ton of exp).

I subsumed most frames before this update and I dont feel backstabbed at all. Any veteran can max the Helminth easily, with or without the "wasted" exp from subsumed frames before the update.

 

13 hours ago, (PSN)xBlake360 said:

You are missing the point.

Subsuming IS NOT the only way to get Helminth EXP. Sure, those who didnt subsume all frames before the update can benefit from this more, but it doesnt mean those who did subsume all are completely ruined.

Really, I would understand this reasoning, if Helminth had 100levels and each frame would give out like 5 levels, then it would be reasonable, since the grind without it may have been too long. But now? Helminth level cap just got raised by 5 levels - if you use invigorations + spend some resources on testing abilities, you will reach level cap in no time.

There are bigger problems veterans should be concerned about (lack of meaningful endgame rewards, DE not being able to balance stuff, since there isnt an endgame to balance it around, lack of melee 3.0 phase 3 and so on), this Helminth case isn't one of them. It's almost as bad as when some people got so entitled that they were complaining that Helminth is locked behind too low MR (even though MR doesn't define veterans, really, it could be locked behind MR0 and nothing would be changed, players would still need to farm to know how to use it correctly).

Wow, way to ignore all of the previously mentioned points, and project/declare your own emotional response as justification/distraction on DE's behalf, when we've already exhaustively covered how this is very not true, with lots of logical counterpoints.

Subsuming is still the second best source of huge chunks of exp, and the inarguably best waste-free, non-temporary-gain method of gaining Helminth levels. "Just use Invigorations" totally ignores a MAAAAAASSIVE swath of criticisms players leveled towards this entire Invigorations system in the first place when it was workshopped, and the fact that it's a resource sink for an extremely temporary, extremely RNG-driven buff that only contributes to power creep in the game at a breakneck speed. Yes, the very few Subsumes, Infusions, and rare Invigorations have gotten me nearly to Rank 14 with Helminth. But I shouldn't have had huge chunks of Helminth exp capable of being permanently wasted, where the only timely option to catch up is to waste resources on a feature I fundamentally dislike. According to the Wiki, completely ignoring all of the feeding, and ignoring the mandatory-to-progress Infusions on the front end, "Subsuming all 47 Warframes currently in game grants a total of 75,200 cumulative experience; enough to reach Helminth Rank 10" where rank 10 costs 73,125 points. A single Warframe gives 1600xp, ignoring the feeding required before/after. Even before accounting for AAAAAAALL of the feeding (and the few mandatory Infusions) you would see more than one of the Warframe's one-time earnable exp wasted, AFTER accounting for all of the other exp, it's a LOT more than one of them wasted. Why should we have to use completely-RNG-based Invigorations in order to make up the multi-frame deficit that DE is giving slower players a pass on?

I agree with Lexi, way to do the most transparent strawman'ing I've ever seen in my life. We've exhaustively talked about the exact nuances behind why we're pissed, and it's because DE could've given us credit for our beyond-10 one-time-performable grinds by either giving us levels, or giving us buffs to Helminth Level gain per Subsumed Frame, or any number of other things, and they instead did the easiest and most disrespectful thing, which is nothing. They're looking us dead in the eye, and saying "don't Subsume every Warframe unless you want to waste tons of resources on Invigorations the next time we expand the Helminth System, we're rewarding new players and players who are procrastinating or failing to 100% our systems instead of rewarding you for fully engaging with the content".

DE usually pays us back for presenting us with harder grinds they later decide to nerf, or even when they just change systems that we invested in, just to avoid hard feelings (see Saryn rework, Railjack updates, LOTS of "inbox messages to the Operator" over the years for things they switch up on us). THIS TIME, they're not making it easier for other people and then compensating us for our early efforts, they're punishing us for our early efforts. Bogus, not interested in hearing arguments as weak and insubstantial as yours, expectantly waiting for DE to make this right. This is a uniquely new way of screwing over their early adopters, which is why they felt the need to specifically pre-defend their decision by comparing it to other systems in other MMOs.
DE, we're not playing other MMOs, and the Helminth ranks are not equivalent to player-character ranks in other MMOs. Treat us with the fairness and respect for our time and investments you've previously treated us with.
There's been options presented in this thread as alternatives to just freely giving us the minimum amount of ranks we'd mathematically had to have been able to reach if we'd only done the minimum Infusions and feeding and all of the Subsumes we'd done so far. To repeat an option, you could make the number of Warframes Subsumed count towards an exp multiplier, so that players feel less of a sense of arbitrary waste by Subsuming frames up to and past the current Helminth Cap, and allows the early adopters to get to the cap again, respecting their previous investment and completionism. Or just give people Kuva or Catalysts or Endo or some other "evergreen" reward per Warframe (or every other or every third) they subsumed past rank 10, up to a max cap.

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