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Update 30.5: Sisters of Parvos & Kuva Liches Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)


[DE]CoreyOnline
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Posted (edited)

Without using Oull or Ultimatum, new Lich (not sisters, didn't try) system is even more tedious than before because of the Kuva fortress.

Kuva fortress is extremely slow because of no quick capture and sabotage nodes.

Lich movement ability is heavily bugged because of the map levels on multiple floors with narrow tubes in the fortress.

 

Fortress need to obtain both the missing mission type nodes, and lich movement need to be removed entirely on this map for a damage or defense boost.

Edited by roishakalaka
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OK having spawned something like 50 plus sister candidates and taken out around ten of them. The flow of the spawning and defeating them is much faster than the Kuva lich system.. Generally a positive for me in this regard.. The RNG involved with getting some of the sister weapons seemed a little skewed for my liking.. The Arca Plasmor and Diplos seemed to dominate the number of sister generated weapons by a ratio of literally 10 (of both these two weapons) to 1 (all other sister weapons). That's some very skewed RNG there. The railjack mission like previous corpus railjack missions are pretty pointless segment that is way too short to even warrant having a railjack section.

 

The actual fighting of the Parvos sisters, in general is ok, but there are location issues. The frequent teleporting proved rather annoying... Especially in confined spaces, and even worse when near a lift, as she could potentially teleport to the top of the life and back down to the bottom. This was rather frustrating having to ride the lift up and down multiple times to fight the sister simply cause she was teleporting exceptionally frequently, causing frequent player disorientation, which isn't helped by the fact her hound shares the same enemy icon.  Even when you down each of her paragon segments, she regenerates her health so quickly, trying to find her after she has teleported before she gets back up is also another element of frustration, especially if said sister has very high resistances resulting in a large amount of time needed to down each of her health segments. Overall the amount of teleporting the sisters is doing needs to be toned way down... It's far too frequent, and disorientating especially in confined areas and/or areas with a lot of verticality.

 

Additionally the sisters seem to have a tendency to spawn near the mission exit if a group of four players has taken too long to take down just one or two of the player's individual sisters prior to reaching the mission exit vicinity. This can lead to group prematurely finishing the mission whilst in combat with a sister, this is more problematic with mission types that can be completed very quickly. 

 

Overall happy with the Sister system, but there are niggling problems

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Posted (edited)

I agree that the Granum void part should be removed, the way Kuva liches are handled is much better.

The whole process is simply annoying and very time-consuming, over and over again.

And you do all that, just to find out, that the candidate has the same weapon... This is a horrible grind, and it seems (for me), that some weapons got higher chance to spawn, like I've been getting the Flux Rifle, Envoy or Diplos too much often.

Edited by -FrutyX-
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Posted (edited)

I'm having an awful time, to be honest.

It took 3 tries just to get a candidate for a Sister of Parvos to spawn, even following directions from the wiki. I'm guessing it doesn't want to spawn one if you wait for a coin carrier first? That's the main thing I did differently. I can only imagine how much fun I'll be having when I'm trying to get my last Tenet weapon.

Now I'm saddled with a Rank 5 sister, who has repeatedly blown through all my health even as Inaros Prime, which I switched to because I was sick of being instantly murdered by Liches/Sisters, and then I finally get their health down enough to use my parazon and they just... don't give me a prompt. It's happened twice now in the same fight as my patience is gone by this point.

EDIT- And which one of you decided we needed YET ANOTHER KNOCKDOWN MECHANIC? I hope you spend the rest of your days working from the inside of a bouncy house lined with repulsion gel.

Edited by Xana_Skullsunder
removed rudeness
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Today a met a lich NOBODY can kill

it's not my lich, but here are the reasons WHY we couldn't kill it
 

  • It kept making specters
    • Each specter had our own weapons and abilities that 1 shot us
    • They respawn immediately after 1 is killed
    • Some of them even RAD PROCCED US which btw should actually NOT be in the game as this is a guaranteed death sentence for us
  • The shields are stupid. What's the point of playing this game if you divide the damage by the output amount?
    • Literally fire rate is the only way to kill these enemies, alongside post damage calculation buffs
    • Damage doesn't even matter due to this mysterious damage divider that makes those Crown Treasurers immortal
    • The arquebex, which agreeably is an uninteresting way to beat the lich was denied as our last resort to a system where the lich is unkillable
  • The lich is unkillable
    • When we get a bit of damage onto her it teleports away
    • While it is gone it regenerates all her shields
  • We downed her once in 30 minutes
    • But then she teleported away from the owner of the lich and was subsequently fully healed!!!

 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE:

  • Remove the dumb damage divider
  • Remove status immunity (why does magnetic NOT WORK in the one place they're supposed to be used???)
  • Make the shield regeneration less aggressive! It heals it all back in the entirety of about 3 seconds

 

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I understand that you want to make the Sisters and Liches able to fight longer than one second, especially against the Voidrig, but you over did it. The Rank 5 Liches/Sisters are complete bullet sponges and can one shot you making the fight not difficult but unfun and unfair. Hope you can address this issue.

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Ergo Glast shop and Railjack suggestions:

  • Increase Corrupted Holokey drops based on Proxima levels.

Earth and Venus: 2x Corrupted Holokey

Saturn: 4x Corrupted Holokey

Neptune: 6x Corrupted Holokey

Pluto: 8x Corrupted Holokey

Veil: 10x Corrupted Holokey

  • Make Corrupted Holokey a guaranteed drop.

Since it replaced Void Traces, there's no reason to be a chance to get it.

Reasoning: The Railjack part of Void Storms are not enjoyable for some players( I enjoy it a little bit, but it gets tedious really fast), and after completing the mission, which because of Railjack takes a little bit longer compared to normal relic runs, just to have a CHANCE to get the thing that replaced Void traces is frustating. Also there's this thing called Valence Fusion, which means that the shop will not be outdated so fast since you can only buy one per week.

Bonus: Ambassador.

Since i didn't found the megathread about it i will post it here:

  • Move it from rotation C to A on survivals.

It is not that good of a weapon to be closed behind so much grind(20min for a chance to get a part).

  • Fix drop locations on the official Drop Table.

If you search for Ambassador it says that it drops from various missions(Skirmish, Volatile) instead of what is said in game(Survival).

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The kuva lich system was never good and it's a crying shame that it didn't get reworked for this update.

WHY are we collecting ancient eldritch mods from relics that are dropped by the underlings of our "nemesis" to put in our "gene dagger" in order to make our nemesis run away so we can finally battle them normally?

How many radiant relics you do think is reasonable to go through to get one specific mod? 15? Because that's what I just spent half a day on, in order to continue with this one sister to get one weapon that I'll have to grind through six times in order to throw out afterwards. Boy I hope the next one doesn't need the same one, so I have to do it all over again, because I'll have to grind the right kuva relics for that and god knows how long that'll take. All I'm saying is, if this is intended, then you've strongly misjudged how fun your content is.

Parazon rune mods/requiems should be common at this point or it should be eliminated altogether. There are worthwhile grinds and then there's being pidgeonholed into doing kuva fortress only for hours on end. The 'nemesis', whether they're grineer or corpus do not, have not and will never feel like a special enemy when our only interaction is to play three way tic-tac-toe with them.

This is a fundamental design flaw with the game, that your vision is that players are not allowed to build themselves more powerful than you like, so we have to be time gated, be blocked by invulnerability or have our weapons and/or abilities taken away from us.
You have to set a gear check and let the content be too high for some players and a breeze for others. If you want, then recommend builds for what you think would be "challenge appropriate" so players have references to guide them with.

A lot of playing warframe is in SPITE of what you implement and dealing with your BS decisions.

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Posted (edited)

- We need a token system for liches. We really do. Getting a lich to spawn with a desired weapon is a pain. Especially so since unlike Kuva Liches, we cannot just stroll through Cassini and smack a larvaling, we need to complete a Granum Void first, making the whole experience worse. How about we encounter a Candidate as soon as we enter the Granum void and using Mercy on them collapses the void, while leaving them to their fate launches the specters, at least? Also, what's with level 410 Specters spawning in Granum Void (not steel path?).

- Why add a Railjack Phase only AFTER we complete the sequence? What's the point? Corpus Railjack is one of my most hated mission types. Jamming Drones, yay. I'm trying to be constructive, but nothing aside from "scrap that and go back to the drawing board" comes to mind. It's drawn out, boring and littered with clucky design choices, like having to "clear priority targets" before engaging the lich. If you're making RJ a part of the Lich system, can we please use it to force a confrontation when we're feeling like it? It's not like we can't do it through gear items anyway. 

- Sister weapons seem... Meh at best. Envoy is fun on the starchart, but falls off hard on Steel Path or even Grineer side of Veil Proxima. And you're still turning a blind eye to the fact that every Kuva weapon aside from what Glast is selling is available to MR5 players, as if it was intentional. Why do you label them as "MR15" or above? They're all MR5 anyway. 

- Farming Holokeys is horrible. They need to be a guaranteed Void Storm reward, not a "chance". I've spent hours upon hours in the Veil, and I don't even have 20 keys to show for it. I could've killed several liches in that timeframe. This is NOT ok. I feel like I'm wasting time - and it's not a good feeling when playing a game. It's supposed to be fun, and effort/reward ratio plays a big part here. What we have now isn't fun, it's tedious. 

 

 

 

Edited by Reifnir
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Posted (edited)

Absolutely love the Sisters of Parvos experience from top to bottom. It's a faster hunt that feels great, the hounds are fun to fight, the final showdown is satisfying. Take practically anything in the patch notes about them, put it in my mouth, and take it as a compliment. Please. I've had quite a bit of fun with the update so far.

Unfortunately now let me be very clear I am being incredibly literal about the Sisters of Parvos part, just that part. Candidates continue to suffer the exact same problems kuva larvlings had, RNG that is both in excess and too much. I'm coming up on about the 2 hour mark on trying to find a Tenet Envoy which with 8(?) eligible Tenet weapons should be a 12.5% chance that I'm still not seeing! ...Why? You want me to play Granum Void? I am! I'm going to T3 rewards just because I'm there! Sure it's increasing my time per run a bit but heck if I don't have a little bit of fun somewhere in here! Give me a reason that we cannot use the Spectral Debris as a currency to force-spawn a Sister with the weapon we desire. Far as I'm aware it's only current use is constructing Hounds at Legs. That requires five Debris I believe and I'd only consider constructing 1 custom Hound. I'm getting 2-4 Debris per Granum Void typically (without Fetch/Vacuum)! Give me something to use it on and for the love of god stop gating entrance to activities behind pure RNG. 15 Debris to get what I want? Considering how long it's taken me so far I wouldn't bat an eye at 25.

Edited by Diedact
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Just had  friend grind his first Lich for a kuva zarr and he was very excited to finally kill the lich, the only thing fuelling his will to keep grinding being that sweet sweet new gun. Guess what? He vanquishes the Lich only to be told he needs to start grinding for a railjack and then grinding it for parts/crew to make it strong enough to try and kill the Lich (after previously doing a grind to vanquish it) absolutely disgraceful that DE would shoehorn this "mechanic" into the game just to force people to play a game mode nobody asked for or enjoys playing.

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Is there a way to keep the game from pausing when a dog appears. People told me it is loading the dog and getting an SSD helps alleviate it, but making a game scalable so it plays on different hardware is useful. I hope it's not a case of if you don't have a second SSD for games the game will now pause repeatedly mid missions.

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I'd have more feedback to give... assuming I could get my Lich to spawn.

The beacon just needs to be reusable or craftable or whatever. This is ridiculous; I've had all three known for a while and I'm not wasting a one-time call beacon like this.

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So far here's my feelings with the new stuff:

I like the fact the Liches and Sisters are faster to progress with now. That is very, VERY welcome. Also the Oull and ultimatium is neat, too. 

The Parazon rework feels a.. 50/50 thing to me? I do like the fact finishers are more reliable. Sad to see I can't mercy more enemies, but ah well. The mods are what I have issue with, though. THese mods are like, super rare, tedious to farm. Some of them are just.. not great? And the others, while useful, I don't see why I'd ever go out of my way to farm them or even equip them. 3 slots is a bit restricting, though I know why the limit is three. There's some good utilities there, like "Faster movement speed after mercy" Though why would one ever use that over something like "instantly reload, blind your enemies and get a 100% power strength boost on next cast"

Sisters and their hounds also feel ssuppperr tanky and not terribly fun to fight, in my opinion. Bringing some of my stronger weapons and blasting them in the face for 5 minutes only doing maybe 2/3 damage a pellet feels off to me.

 

I don't mind the railjack encounters with them, either. I think they're pretty good. And the fact that, as a squad, people can hunt down their liches/sisters one by one and reap the rewards together is also really good. (I'd still like a recall option in a corpus ship, though.)

The main problem with the Railjack is that i just don't think it's fun to really fight in at the moment? Spam missile swarm with loads of energy is still the meta and I don't think the encounters with space enemies are terribly dynamic or interesting. Crewships "either you take 1 minute ot blow them up or have someone spam dome charges" isn't terribly fun to me. And the corpus encounters tend to slow down a /lot/ when you have to wait 2/3 minutes for someone to fill up a bar and press a button on a console before you can enter the corpus ship to finally finish off your sisters.

As for the companions, I don't know what to say about them. I found companions never really did note worthy damage and have always been rather disappointing that they were a healthbar you had to babysit for a loot vacuum and (sometimes) a useful ability.

My last problem that I believe is relevant to this; is the RNG involved with actually getting the tenet/kuva weapons.  Once you start ticking them off your list, it is a very slow and tedious process of just hoping the person has the right weapon. A system that lets you pre-determine a weapon you get would be welcome. Maybe have it as a reward for taking out an amount of sisters and liches? Like a credit system where we get points for a thing, and we can spend those credits on an item that lets us decide what weapon we want. It'd be an improvement to farming later down the line where you just want your 1 weapon you love maxed out. 

 

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The game is still tedious and boring. It becomes a little faster but still tedious. If we had more "thralls" to stab it could be a little different than the rest but .... We are playing the same boring missions and killing the same boring enemies.

The reality for me is this: DE added a bunch of weapons, more armor and enemy levels, more mods and arcanes, some warframes, but the game didn't changed. They add rewards and the way to get then didn't change. I was hopping some railjack stuff but now railjack its officially just a taxi.

I don't get this: why lock the new stuff ... the majority of the new enemies released since the ghouls appears so little in the game ... Fighting the liches are about 5% of the time spent.

Same boring survival, sabotage, mobile defense, etc missions in the same places against the same enemies.

Lets see if the game reaches 10 years.

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My experience with the Liches/Sisters system so far:

The overall experience is good, although even if I really like the pace of the new system, it suffers quite a few problems that made it feel awkward.

1 - The beginning quest in Granum Void is, as many people already pointed out, very difficult to do without a proper config as a 4 players team. An unprepared person can disorganize the whole thing by killing the specters as you try to catch them or by running in circles causing the ghosts to split.

However I found this issue to be reliably avoidable by going alone with the Xoris. It might require a bit of training but it's the best strategy as far as I experienced.

2 - A more general issue with Lich system is the fact that only one person (the one downing it) can claim the lich on one mission. This causes some bad moves by people profiting from others and leaving.

A simple issue would be to allow everyone to generate a Lich in the mission. Perhaps by generating one by person.

3 - When generating a Sister, I've found out that the same weapons kept coming over and over, out of 15 attempts I'm at my 6th tetra and my 4th flux rifle.

I've seen quite a few reports regarding the same problem so I wonder if it's an intended mechanic (seems unlikely) or if something unexpected is happening in the code.

 

But here comes the biggest issues I've had with this new system:

4 - The planet system, as well intentioned as he is, ends up creating more problems than it solves. Once you start going in the higher tiers (thereby the ones where you're more susceptible to require help considering the level increase) the number of people drastically drops. I've had 2 nightmarish experience on tier 5 trying to down my Lich alone because no one was showing up.

5 - It also disrupts the team experience because if everyone doesn't get his lich upped on the same mission, you can either split or keep going with half of the team no longer angering the Sister.

Another solution could be to add more planets as time goes on but to keep the ancient ones and refresh them when you level up so you can still go in smaller tiers to find people. Perhaps balancing the quantity of murmurs by planet could serve as an incentive to go for higher planets.

6 - The Sisters are bullet sponges for no apparent reason

Most weapons don't go higher than 100 dmg per hit except for Necramechs. But since you can only use them for the railjack mission the balancing of Sisters HP makes it necessary to go for very optimized solutions during the farming process. This gets way more pronounced with level 4 and 5 sisters.

7 - Most weapons feel very underwhelming for something costing 5 formas to max out

The problem was already present with Kuva weapons, but that doesn't make it feel more just here. Some weapons honestly don't deserve 5 formas for their meager return on the investment. 

 

But even with these problems, I've had a good experience with the new system which definitely feels better paced and more enjoyable to play than the Kuva Liches. The murmur rate feels more rewarding, the weapons are visually very enjoyable and the introduction of Railjack to end it felt refreshing and well done.

I will definitely be coming back for more of it for a longer time than Kuva Liches.

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Posted (edited)

Right time to chime in on my two-granum crowns.

I've just acquired my first Tenet weapon (the Spirex, I actually like it) and got lucky and acquired an Ephemera too.

I actually like the new way to fight the Sisters (such as being able to spawn any and/or all in the same mission), however, their super damage reduction can drag out a mission for far too long and even failing a mission like a Defence one as you're concentrating on this Level 5 Sister which can dock the entire party, companions and even the objective in mere moments (not to mention the Hounds, dear Christ, the Hounds!) The good point is that you can finish off all the Sisters in a single Railjack mission in a gauntlet-style boss run, which was nice even when throwing in the Necramech for extra gunfire.

The Hounds abilities are too quick, snatching everyone's weapons and then teleporting 200m+ away (nothing personnel, kid) every time you get in a couple of shots, combined with dealing with a high level Sister can make the fights frustrating.

Now let's talk about Ergo Glast!

40 Corrupt Holokeys for a single Tenet melee weapon. What's so bad about this?

The grinding of the highest order! With a potential maximum of 6 in a Void Proxima at a 37.5% is too low of number. Holokeys should be a also drop from a Sister you failed to defeat or even if you defeat her at the endgame.

Then there's the bonus chances that switch weekly. I'm sorry, but I don't think 40 Holokeys for a Tenet Livia with a 26% Fire bonus is worth the grind when there's a Tenet Agendus with 47% Toxin bonus for the same price. To get a 60% Fire bonus on Livia would take far too much time to grind for Holokeys for a valence fusion. Either make the price reflecting the elemental % bonus (so low % = low amount of Holokeys needed) or have the refresh rate at say.. 3 days rather than 7. I really want the Tenet Livia but who is to say that bonus next week will be any better and I can't have all my time spent trying to farm Holokeys when I have the Sisters/Liches to acquire, my daily standings to amass, Ducats to procure and events to finish.

 

Pros: Nice system for the Sisters, a little refreshing.

Cons: Bullet-sponge Sisters >< The enemy Hound abilities needs a longer refresh rate >< Grind + Grind x Grind = GRIIIIIND! >< Ergo Glast and the Holokeys of Heresy

Edited by Xanderless
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4 minutes ago, Xanderless said:

Now let's talk about Ergo Glast!

40 Corrupt Holokeys for a single Tenet melee weapon. What's so bad about this?

The grinding of the highest order! With a potential maximum of 6 in a Void Proxima at a 37.5% is too low of number.

We can do some rough estimations on time investment (I'll be using my own solo time ranges):

(Maximum) 6 holokeys per mission at 37.5% chance = average 2.25 per mission, but good Veil missions aren't always available, so we'll split this between Veil and second highest 5 keys/mission for a convenient 2 average Holokeys per mission.

Heavily depending on the mission type and extra-objective RNG, these missions can take anywhere from 6 to 20 minutes. I'll trim a little off the top and split the remaining difference and say we average 11 minutes per mission.

At 2 keys per mission we need 20 average missions per Tenet Melee.

20 missions at ~11 minutes average completion gives us a grand total average time investment of 3 hours, 40 minutes of relentless Void Storm grinding per Tenet Melee.

 

That's.. not good. Killing a Sister, strategically, takes less time than farming up a bit of currency to trade for a new whacking stick, and those Sisters give a weapon, a hound and possibly an ephemera in comparison to one melee - even if the Hounds are superfluous after a few drops and the melee has the benefit of being a known value (element/bonus) this is not a favourable comparison.

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17 hours ago, Oreades said:

OK so that's the Melee class weapons?

Full disclosure didn't even know there where melee weapons until just now but yeah the whole cycling system sounds kinda needlessly time gated.

Yea ergo glast from Perrin sequence sells them. 

 

18 hours ago, NeutuoS said:

Hi, please make Ergo Glast Tenet weapons tradable.

I find his wares very unreasonable:
1. Time gated, can only buy 1x4 each week.
2. Each weapon requires 40x Corrupted Holokey, which is a pain to farm on Railjack Void Storm nodes.
3. Void Storm on Railjack is just... starchart fissure, but worse (RJ survival on Veil is like starchart survival but with non-reward 5+ mins, etc.)

Or worse, please make Corrupted Holokey tradable, reduce it to 10-20 for each weapon, etc.
Thanks.

Yea they need to increase the amount we get increase drop rate and get rid of the time gate. Some people will have to wait the whole 6 weeks just to get the element they want on a weapon and that’s absurd. 

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Hunting Liches and Sisters is actually in a good place. OULL helps a lot, mostly with Kuva Liches as they are a bit slower with Murmurs than the Sisters are. I would like Kuva Liches to be more aggressive still and try to fight you more often, just a hair.

Getting started with a Lich is something that should be looked at. pre-update I had one of my worst attempt at summoning a Rad Kuva Drakgoon. I was looking for a Larvaling for 2 hours. its miserable. Due to RNG you sometimes have a decent time, but when its bad, its demoralizing.

I've made a proposal here, but there are many solutions. I think dividing into smaller weapon pools would work well.

 

 

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Apart from my 4th Sister being bugged and stuck the damage reduction is absurd and somehow more noticeable than with 1-3. Damage output is also ridiculous and the majority of the arsenal is simply irrelevant.

This is on top of what seems to be dispelling defensive buffs and damage reflection with next to no tell (especially considering the other visual noise). The practically permanent frost status and assault on my eyes come from the Tenet Envoy; both would be bearable if the fight would've progressed properly which it didn't. The bug is quite bad and a different issue but the bullet sponge gameplay just adds frustration.

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This update seems to have broken cambion drift spawns, I've tried to do a bounty with 0 spawns in it, I simply waited 2 minutes until the timer ran out. Sometimes I notice the pods spawn but when they pop, no enemies spawn out of them (I did not shoot or destroy the pods).

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Posted (edited)

Fully built hounds is pretty cool. Until you run out of inventory space and have either sell/consign another companion, buy more slots, or just let it rot in the foundry. I did consider exchanging one of my existing hounds that I haven't touched yet for SU standing until I saw it needed to be gilded (I assume. All my moas and my one leveled hound are gilded and I've never had a need to use that option until now). However, having to constantly level new hounds just exchange them for standing isn't the ideal use of play time.

 

 

Edited by Ishiyyin
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