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Update 30.5: Sisters of Parvos & Kuva Liches Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)


[DE]CoreyOnline
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5 hours ago, eBlaise said:

I mostly have extensive experience with the prior, lich system, and now I'm past my 10th sister, I feel like I got a decent grasp of the new flow to provide feedback, I'll try to go by the original bullet points provided, but in some cases there'll be unavoidable overlap, and I have no feedback on some points either because of a lack of interest or no progress in that regard yet.

  • Hounds Feedback: As Enemies & Companions
    -I have not claimed any of my acquired hounds yet from the foundry, so no feedback on them yet, I'll leave this here for edit in case I get to them and have notable feedback of any sort.
    -As enemies, they are Specialist enemies, but very hard to distinguish them based on profile on their capabilities (all are just dog shaped, in the visual clutter can't tell what head/tails/legs they got, or fully learn the patter of abilities associated with each part), so you can only really identify them when one of their tricks hits you, can't truly be proactive about them, so it's usually just a straightforward, "hit it until it goes down, and pick up the pieces afterwards" as a sort of reactive play once they are engaged.
     
  • Sister Tenet Weapons
    I have no real interest in them, the aesthetic is cool, just not to my personal taste/preference, if they behave the same as kuva weapons in terms of ranking (with needing forma to unlock the final 10 ranks), I have a mild gripe with that, since I have no interest in using these weapons, for me it feels like a wicked waste to use so many forma in each and every one of them, but since mastery rank 30 can now be easily reached without needing those extra ranks for mastery, it's only bothersome for my completionist nature, and yet I still refused to do it even on the kuva weapons.
     
  • Murmur Reduction
    -Sped up the pace of Lich/Sister progression greatly, but also introduced a handful of issues with it.
       -First of all, now these personal nemeses feel even less of a threat that can be spawned and defeated in less than an hour of game session, and they completely lost any semblance of a long form/major threat, a nemesis you build up a love-hate relationship with.
       -Second, the planet flow change (I'm assuming the showdown bullet point only pertains to the railjack showdown of the system), is a mixed bag, I understand the reasoning for establishing clear level brackets for matchmaking purposes, prior to this change I just accepted that my lich missions could be any level range regardless of my lich's power, or might not even get anyone matched for a given mission.
          -However, in the current/new system, these nemeses are planet hopping like ADHD children that can't decide what planet to play with, as they level, so they lost the sense of them taking over territory, also their territory no longer expands as they gain levels, that also cuts into them feeling like a threat.
          -And what's even more problematic is how quickly this new way of progression will become stale, all new sisters start on Venus, do 3-4 missions of personal preference (for me it's exterminate, survival, and then capture/md if still not leveled up), then on to the next planet, so we keep seeing the same missions/tiles over and over, no variety, while the old system allowed them to conquer any planet, so sometimes it even flipped the occupants of a given tile (grineer on corpus/infested tiles) that for one made it feel like the lich was actually taking over space, and also gave a good variety given how they could occupy any planet, to start with, and expand their territory around that along the solar rails.
     
  • New Requiem Mod Oull
    -As a veteran of the lich system, I have an extensive cache of the regular requiem selection, so for me personally the Oull mod holds no real value in the current system for several reasons.
       -Given the greatly increased rate of murmur acquisition, usually I only get 0-1 blind tries on a sister before I learn at least 1 requiem, after that I can already try for that specific requiem in the first slot, and if it was the right fit, on to a blind try for the second slot, if it didn't fit that's where Oull could come in, I could try to put Oull in the 1st slot as a "placeholder" to allow me to try the 1st revealed requiem in the 2nd slot, on my 2nd sister confrontation, however given the very fast pace of murmur acquisition, by that point I'll have a 2nd requiem revealed and can try that specifically for the 1st slot, and thus any tactical benefit of Oull is lost.
       -There is a potential as a convenience choice to take Oull, in case someone got very lucky and on a blind try they got the first 2 requiems and would take long to reveal the 3rd so why not just use Oull, and some other edge cases, like if someone happens to run out of a specific type of requiem, but all in all given the current pace of murmur acquisition, there's hardly any reason to use this.
     
  • Parazon Rework
    In all honesty, I hardly feel the difference, even these hardened/specialist enemies just evaporate during most gameplay, so the only real combat use case of the parazon is still the thrall/hound finishers; and on that note, all other parazon enabled enemies should adopt a similar approach, rendered invulnerable for a few seconds in a defeated state before they expire, to give a proper chance for executing the mercy kill, not exactly sure how this all should behave in relation to impact procs that could put them into the mercy state far quicker in a way cheesing these hardened enemies, maybe they could recover from the mercy state if it was brought on early via impact procs, but they new/current iteration makes next to no difference, even if I know what enemy types could throw up a chance for the mercy kills.
     
  • New Kuva Lich Showdown Flow (I'm assuming this also includes the sister showdown flow for feedback)
    -For the lich showdown in railjack, the skirmish mission leadup with the 2 side objectives plus skirmish combat objectives takes significantly longer than the sisters showdown, that only involves 2 security nodes, and either 2 crewships or one secondary objective before engaging the capital ship for the on foot showdown.
    -The on ship engagement feels decently paced, my only minor gripe is the teleporting sisters/liches (and only that movement utility, not the other 3 types) can be rather quite vexing since they can move in out of line of sight, making them significantly harder to chase down than any other types during their encounters.
    -The multiple lich/sisters encountered on the same capital ship (one for each player present), further devalues these nemeses as any sort of threat, I wish these sisters/liches were considered more as sort of lieutenants, and defeating them built up a meta progression (similar to how invasions build up the fomorian, razorback armada attacks), and escalate to a greater threat.
    -The dps based damage reduction feels asinine, again I understand the intent like with the level bracketed territory change, but in this case, the foes get a global damage reduction, and don't only throttle the player with the excessive output, and when an ally with the excessive output triggers the highest reduction, and I see my slower, heavy hitting weapon, that normally red crits enemies in the 50-100k damage range deals a whopping 39 points of red crit damage on a 12x heavy attack... let's just say it's disheartening.

    All in all the systems involved generally changed for the better, but I feel like this could be so much more, and far more engaging, keep up the good work.
     

Wtf dude no one is going to read this post 

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I modded for magnetic to take down a sister only to find that I'm not doing much damage to her shields. I heard this was damage attenuation? I thought sentients were the only enemies to resist damage. I don't think this is a good gameplay choice and makes fighting them drawn out and unfun. With sentient you can change your damage types or hit them with void to remove resistances at the very least, but this is like adaptive armor you can't strip or do anything about that has no standing in lore, talked about in any tutorials or indicated that it exists in any part of the game. I feel it's unfair to me that I'm faced with a mechanic that makes weapon loadouts that you've built and modded for the occasion equally as useless as you going into a sister node unprepared for the fight.

Also When I fight a sister of parvos on railjack I want to be able to bring my clanmates and friends but I can't because they don't have a lich there.
I feel they shouldn't have to as if I remember correctly the update talked about the final confrontation as something to do with clanmates or solo.
And the 5 forma per weapon thing to consider the weapon mastered is ludicrous, it feels like I have no choice but to buy multiple triple forma packs.

Also I'm using the parazon more frequently. That part is really nice especially against stronger enemies in lich fights.

Edited by Tellmeninetails
restructured the post to flow better and present my thoughts in a better way.
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I more than 12 runs for a Gloriana ephemera (cold with Gara Prime and Revenant). It refuses to drop. My frustrations boiled over. A 20% drop chance should not result in such an extended run without the drop. It makes me think that there is something else in the code that is conspiring to keep the ephemera from dropping, ie, it is not truly RNG. I'm done.

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Is Sister Candidates supposed to be a 100% spawnrate after completing a granum void? Do they have the same limitation as Larvlings (only spawning in standard missions)?

Didn't spawn for me while doing the steel path daily alerts, did spawn both Treasurer and Acolyte so possible these override it? I definitely used a Zenith badge and reached level 3 but never saw a Candidate during the rest of the mission.

 

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make the lock-on mode of Tenet Diplos able to target enemies on screed (like Mesa' s 4) instead of just the recticle.

Or simply rework the alt mode of Tenet Diplos, this weapon has so much potential.

Currently Tenet Diplos' alt mode is useless against lvl 60+ enemies.

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2 hours ago, SeidronDaer said:

I more than 12 runs for a Gloriana ephemera (cold with Gara Prime and Revenant). It refuses to drop. My frustrations boiled over. A 20% drop chance should not result in such an extended run without the drop. It makes me think that there is something else in the code that is conspiring to keep the ephemera from dropping, ie, it is not truly RNG. I'm done.

20% chance = 80% 'not chance'

80% over 12 runs = .8^12 = 6.872% chance of no ephemera in 12 consecutive runs. That's bad luck, but not so bad as to call it a conspiracy.

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I'm only onto my third Sister (mostly because I'm trying not to burn out on this stuff) but I do have a lot of thoughts already, so here's some loosely organised feedback from a solo player who isn't sitting on a library of rank 5 arcanes and maxed out Prime mods.

Creating a Sister

  • Lich spawning often happens naturally and even by accident while going through a Grineer mission, spawning a Sister requires doing a specific bit of side content using a specific item, and that specific content can require specific weapons or builds to even get rank 1. It feels very night/day in how they've been approached and I'm not a fan, an introduction mission or just hint of some kind to point players towards the requirements would have been nice.
  • Because of this, hunting for a certain weapon or trying to get an element with a certain frame takes considerably more effort than the Lich.
  • The Candidate being a model swap for the Treasurer (dropping the same canister on "death" but with nothing coming out of it) felt a bit... rough around the edges.

Hunting the Sister

  • PLEASE consider rebalancing or reworking how the Hounds use their abilities. A disarm with no telegraph (and the ability to teleport away, giving it time to reset cooldown), an incredibly strong repelling beam and a knockdown which hits multiple times in a short duration are incredibly annoying things to have to deal with multiple times every mission. The knockdown in particular has stunlocked me into death more than once.
  • The movement of the Hounds (particularly ones that teleport) feels very erratic and difficult to follow. I don't mind an enemy being nimble but this often feels more like jank than intentional design.
  • The "mini-boss" levels of health on the Hounds probably coincides with the increase in murmurs gained, but it would have been nice to see some variety and have a couple regular "Thrall" Corpus spawned in between. This would also help alleviate my first point of the Hounds becoming more annoying to deal with over time.
  • The Oull word being added was a very nice touch for folks that want to try their luck at guessing the order of their phrase when they only have a couple words or are missing the actual mod for one.
  • The increased appearance rate of the Sister definitely helps in giving you opportunities to test your phrase or complete it on her to move to the final confrontation.
  • Having a final confrontation instead of a fairly underwhelming "wait for the lich to spawn and beat them down like usual" was a good idea...

Final Confrontation

  • ...but it still needs something to make it actually special.
  • When I confronted my first Sister and saw there were Warframe specters there I thought "Oh hey this might be co- oh wait they're dead already." It was honestly really disappointing and set the tone for the strategy needed; just do damage.
  • On this point, limiting boss characters to 4 stacks of status just pivots everything right back to where it always was with "crit is king" thinking. If you don't want a boss to be status'd to death, give them X% chance to resist a status if they've been hit with the same one recently, stacking but falling off over time. This keeps fast rate of fire weapons from building them too quickly and gives low rate of fire weapons a chance to build them at all.
  • With all the comm chatter about backup and this-and-that, I thought this would be some kind of multi-stage battle similar to Kela De Thaym. After downing the spectres, it just turned into the same kind of fight as the old Liches where you body them into a wall and wail on them til they die.
  • Corpus tilesets do not play nice with those finisher animations. We've all grown a little numb to the jank on these but it really ruins the moment to clip through into nothingness or have the models just not align properly at all. It would have been neat to have them teleport somewhere with flat ground in a cutscene to set up the conquer/vanquish choice.
  • It would have been nice to have an actual special room for these showdowns instead of just a generic piece of Corpus ship as well, which would have alleviated my previous point.

Rewards

  • The Hounds might be the most death prone companion yet. Even with a Valkyr at 2000+ armor and Link Armor, these things go down ridiculously fast and I can't think of a reasonable explaination why other than them face checking enemies constantly.
  • Being able to choose the different physical damage typing by using different weapons is nice I guess, but pretty bland.
  • Reflex Denial blocking your shots is absolutely infuriating and ruins what should be a great survival tool for them, mostly because the Hound insists on running towards the enemies you're shooting at.

Tenet Diplos

  • This was my first weapon and honestly the one I was most looking forward to from the description.
  • However, firing once per lock-on makes the gimmick all but useless. It would have been much more effective and generally just cooler to have it lock-on X amount of times over a couple seconds to any targets and stacking locks if there weren't any new targets, or alternatively shooting a single burst of shots with punch through that fly through all the targets.
  • Also having the custom reticle show the actual lock-on area (similar to Mesa's Peacemakers) and making the amount of locks more obvious would be an improvement.
  • On a lot of smaller enemies and drones, the shots just wildly orbit the target instead of hitting them and it feels silly the weapon was released this way.

There are a lot of rough edges on this update in regards to bugs and the usability and function of the rewards, and I believe it shows that it was pushed out too early to give the team time to finish prepping for Tennocon. I really hope that afterwards, they're given the time to actually go back and really take into consideration the feedback from players, because while this forum is almost overwhelming negative when something releases, I feel like the feedback this update in particular has been pretty bad.

Edited by Wyrd_Oh
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10 hours ago, (PSN)Poestis said:

It does spawn on any coin, you just being hard on yourself by using Zenith coins.

No, no it doesn't. They specifically stated "Zenith Coins". So unless they changed something, bad troll is bad.

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The Corrupted Holokey farm is a living nightmare and I will just avoid it for now.

I don't have any suggestion beyond making it deterministic. 

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It's kind of cool that there's an image of the Warframe's helmet on the Hound's head when they're enemies, but it's SUPER FREAKING LAME that the Hound pet you get don't keep the Warframe's helmet when you get it as your Hound companion


That was literally the coolest thing about having a Kuva Lich in your team wearing Wukong Prime's helmet like a fancy syandana.

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I have run into an annoyance with the rng matchmaking when hunting sister murmurs.

I go to a mission on my sisters planet and I get randomly matched with another team already on that node. I think great, will do this in a group until I realize that they are not hunting sister murmurs, but are instead hunting a kuva lich murmurs. it turns out that those do not count against sister murmur mod revealing but they still anger the sister. So I lose that node and get the sister angry but am no closer finding out here mods :(

Can this behavior be fixed/changed so that if I have a sister node that I am trying to access, I would either not be matched with kuva lich crew? or that the kuva lich murmurs would also increase the sister murmur/mod reveal? Having to do the work and not getting the reward seems like a bad way of doing this.

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Like others have already said, Tenet Diplos's alt fire is incredibly underwhelming. With how it is currently designed, Sepulcrum has the same gimmick but is superior in every regard, as the homing rounds actually explode as well.

Some ideas for alt fire changes:
-lock on mode sticks to up to 8 targets, and the marks stick to targets until they die, or until you stop aiming. Diplos fires in full auto rather than short bursts at targets, spreading projectiles to each of the targets, allowing for fast elimination of units.

or

-lock on mode can stick on up to 8 targets, keeping the burst firing method, but the bullets fired at each target are based on your clip size. If you have 92 bullets, and two targets marked, each target is hit by 46 bullets. These bullets automatically deal weak point damage, regardless if the bullets actually hit the weak point. 

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Let's talk about the Sisters hound abilities, shall we? Why is it that when they use an ability it absolutely nukes almost every single one of my frames, but when my own hound uses the same ability it barely tickles an enemy? DE, you do realize that the player is supposed to be the one having fun, not the AI, right? Having a tiny, unavoidable ball of lightning shot at me that does nearly 300 damage per second from electric procs and then bounces off a wall to come right back to me? Not fun. Even less fun when I get the ability on my own hound, and it might as well be trying to help my enemies jump start their car instead of kill them.

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11 hours ago, WildCard-27 said:

Please get rid of the granum void gatekeep.  It's too difficult-even with an endgame loadout.  I want to spend my time hunting my lich not trying to unlock one.

Are you trolling or what? Xoris oneshots every specter in the area with one hit. You don't need any "loadout" whatsoever outside that of the weapon and i doubt the weapon even needs it in the first place.

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15 minutes ago, Oorel said:

Please just stealthily, very sneaky-like remove Kuva Grattler, and just get a Kuva Sobek in there instead. thank you.

Funny way of saying 'Kuva Hek'. Cracks me up that people are whining so hard about that syndicate mod when there are so many other potential weapons that could have been Kuva'd that don't have a variant already.

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The drop rate for the new lich ephemeras is really crap. I'm on my 12th sister and still no ephemera. Also matchmaking for the rj showdowm mission is horrendous. There's always a 5 minute loading screen and 2/3 of the time you just get caught in a loading loop, where crashing the game is the only way out. 

Any chance either/both of these are going to be fixed any time soon? Kinda losing the will to log on here.

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1 hour ago, DLOArceus said:

Are you trolling or what? Xoris oneshots every specter in the area with one hit. You don't need any "loadout" whatsoever outside that of the weapon and i doubt the weapon even needs it in the first place.

Bold of you to presume anyone has the xoris.

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So, after doing one Kuva Lich, three Sisters of Parvos and trying ten or so times to get another new Lich, here's my feedback:

Acquisition:

  • I like the method of acquiring Sisters of Parvos and I think that the Kuva Liches would improve by having something similar.
    • It's thematically interesting, it breathes more life to otherwise dead Game Modes and it gate-keeps new Players from throwing themselves into something they can't handle.
    • I would make it so that Kuva Larvlings only appear on Kuva Siphon and Kuva Flood Missions.
  • But, trying to get a specific Weapon, or even just any Weapon that I don't already have, is miserable.
    • An endless loop of doing Missions that I gain nothing of value from, just to roll a Weapon I don't want, again and again, with no progress in sight, hoping that RNGesus might smile upon me this time around.
    • It really feels awful to have such RNG, just to get started on the journey for the thing I want.
  • A way to influence which Weapon we get, or at least reduce the pool of possible Weapons is direly needed.

Progression:

  • The faster Murmur Grind is fine. Since we're so far away from the idea of Liches/Sisters being long term Nemeses, making the whole system faster is nice to have.
  • There's still no reason to Rank Up our Liches, no Risk-Reward structure to give us a reason not to deal with them as fast and easily as possible.
    • I would do the following:
      • Increase their Weapon's Elemental % by their Level (eg: 37% -> 38% -> 39% -> 40% -> 41%)
      • Reroll for Ephemera on Nemeses' without one
      • Increase the return of Stolen Loot by +20% per Level (120% -> 140% -> 160% -> 180% -> 200%)
  • Nemesis Level Up is too slow for how fast the Murmur Progression has become.
    • The only time my Nemesis went beyond Level 3, was when I intentionally mismatched my Requiem Mods.

Combat:

  • The Hounds are a great addition to the System.
    • Depending on their Configuration and the Sister's Abilities, they can even be more interesting to fight than their owners.
  • It'd be great if the Kuva Liches' Thralls were changed to be closer to Mini Bosses, like how the Hounds are.
    • I would consider reusing the Nightwatch Corps Heavy Units for this role, enhanced by the Lich's shared movement Ability.
      • Or maybe spawning a whole Squad of them, like the Syndicate Assassination Squads.
  • Their increased survivability is nice, but incredibly over tuned at Rank 5.
  • The Final Confrontation on Railjack feels a bit disappointing.
    • Their Capital Ships feel more like set-pieces rather than an actually dangerous Capital Ship of our Nemesis.
      • This can be partially fixed for the Sisters by giving them an Obelisk instead of their current Stanchion, thanks to the Obelisks' giant multi-beam laser.
    • There's no connection between the Nemesis and their Ship.
    • The battle against the Sisters is neat thanks to the Specters and the Hounds
    • But the Kuva Liches' Final Confrontation being on Railjack just feel tacked on.
      • I really miss the "This Lich is a Tech Specialist, so he's directing the Ship's Power to his Defenses" concept from TennoLive 2019.

Overall, the changes and additions to the Nemesis System are an improvement, but there's so much more space to grow.

Finally, the Parazon and Impact changes:

  • I love them.
    • I went from doing a couple of Parazon Kills per play-session to a hand-full of Parazon Kills per Mission.
  • But Parazon Finishers are still kinda useless for those missing the Blood for Stuff Mods.
    • I'd strongly recommend just making these three Mods an inherent Mechanic of Mercy Kills.
      • On Mercy Kill (No Mod Required): Reload your Guns and 100% Drop Chance for a Universal Orb.
      • Existing Blood for Stuff Mods could be retooled, buffed for even more, or just removed.
        • Blood for Ammo fully refills all of your Magazines and Ammo, Archgun included.
          • Maybe a short duration of Ammo Efficiency as well?
        • Blood for Energy has 100% Chance for an additional Energy Orb.
        • Blood for Health has 100% Chance for an Empowered Health Orb.
    • Another alternative solution would just be to fix their Drop Chances.
      • 1.6% Drop Chance for Blood for Energy from Ambulas, is awful.
  • Allow us to Cancel/Bypass Enemy Animations with Parazon Finishers
    • Far too often, Enemies that are Marked for Mercy, will die from DoT Effects because they're doing some Animation and I can't execute the Parazon Finisher until they finish.
    • This is especially punishing when using Heat on any Weapon, as they'll go in the Heat Status Effect's Panic Animation as the Mercy Mark appears and they'll die from the Heat DoT while I'm mashing Interact.
    • And it gets even worse if the Enemies have any amount of slow on them, be it from Cold Procs or Warframe Abilities, as this will draw out the Animations even longer.
  • I've yet to play around with a high Impact+Status Mercy-Primer build, but that sounds like a viable and fun Build idea.
    • The more impactful Parazon Kills can be, the more viable such an idea would be.
  • Buffed Impact has become one of the better Status Effects in my eyes.
    • It's still outshined by Slash, but Slash is just incredibly strong.
    • It's better than Puncture, but Puncture kinda sucks in general.
      • Please buff Puncture next. Or at least make it more interesting.
    • The stronger and more rewarding Parazon Finishers become, the stronger and more viable will Status Impact Builds be.

Overall a massive improvement to the System, that people have seemingly written off as unimportant.

Edited by Petroklos
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I've done 14 liches and 2 sisters since the update. Before that I'd finished 96 liches. Overall recommendations:

1) Increase murmurs to somewhere between old requirement and new.

2) Reduce OULL drop rate by 50%.

3) Double drop rate of Requiem Ultimatum.

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Why aren't vets getting helminth xp from already subsumed frames? Why punish vets and give newer players an unfair advantage? Infusing and removing abilities over and over just to level up helminth is a huge waste of time and resources. Feels like a huge middle finger to players that have stuck around with you.

Edited by (PSN)moonlitxshadow
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Honestly, the Oull requiem was a good addition. This lets me save time while grinding liches in order to farm the ephemeras and the 60% extra elemental.

I was surprised to see how fast the sisters' progression was, only needing 7 murmurs (I think) for the first requiem instead of the 30 that the kuva liches have. I'm doing a kuva lich at the moment and the progression still feels really slow.

I might suggest adding a kuva version of the hounds, bulky and harder to kill that require less mumurs like for the sisters.

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9 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

20% chance = 80% 'not chance'

80% over 12 runs = .8^12 = 6.872% chance of no ephemera in 12 consecutive runs. That's bad luck, but not so bad as to call it a conspiracy.

I'm at 20-25 runs without an ephemera dropping. Still a conspiracy?

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Whatever thing you need to do to spawn a sister, remove it.

I've just started with the first sister and I can already tell getting the last few Tenet weapons from sisters will be a practical hell. It already takes hours to spawn the last Kuva weapon and with the Granum Void cr@p thing it gonna take days just to even create the right sister.

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