Update 30.5: Sisters of Parvos & Kuva Liches Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)

[Fireshock]

It's disappointing that you ignored the common feedback that was frequently posted prior to the Sister's release saying, in short: we need a way to just pick what weapon the Lich/Sister will have.

Having to earn a Zenith Granum Crown, complete a mission that's on the Corpus Ship Tileset (a limited selection), complete the Granum Void minigame on Nightmare difficulty, then go back and kill the Treasurer (because the Candidate won't spawn until he's gone), then finally get to kill the Candidate, is an embarrassingly long gameplay loop for something that's still RNG and using a limited resource. You have to repeat this every time the Candidate doesn't have the weapon you want. The first time I tried doing this I did a Pluto Exterminate and it took me 9 minutes just to get a Candidate with a weapon I didn't want. Then I tried a Capture mission on Phobos to make it faster and still having to do the Granum Void minigame pushes it to about 5 minutes each time. Consider that you have to repeat this every time the Candidate doesn't have what you want (and add in any time you have to go back and get Zenith crowns from Neptune/Pluto) and you have hours of your life wasted before you even get to begin fighting the Sister. Now shudder thinking about trying to Valence Fusion that weapon in the future.

As others have stated, this was "fine" when we just had Kuva Liches and a limited weapon pool, and all you had to do was speedrun Cassini. No minigames, just 1 minute missions. Now we have 19 Kuva weapons for Liches and the aforementioned problem with Sisters even with them only having 8 weapons. Minutes turn into hours.

I posted an idea for remedying this in one of the feedback threads on the subject a month ago:

Basically, if you already own something like, as an example, Hek, and you go to stab a Larvling, there is a 100% chance for them to have Kuva Hek. This serves three purposes:

• Removes the RNG grind involved in simply picking which weapon you want your Lich to have (while still allowing RNG as an option).
• Makes it so that you still have to put in some work to get that 100% chance (some weapons can be challenging to build) and rewards players for doing so.
• Allows the "base" weapon to still have a purpose, since after upgraded Kuva/Tenet variants come out they often get completely invalidated and most players will just ignore building them if they're not farming mastery points.

In regards to "unique" weapons like Tenet Envoy, this would be determined by "weapon type" rather than exact weapon. So for example, wielding a "launcher" type weapon like the Ogris would affect the Larvling/Candidate instead. In the case of that being multiple weapons, it would still reduce the weapon pool to just those weapons which is still a huge improvement.

You've touted Lich QoL updates in this update, and some of them like reducing the murmurs needed, making Liches a guaranteed spawn, and the "wildcard" requiem are good changes, but you've missed the most important QoL update involving simply getting started with your Lich/Sister.

[TerribleDamage]

8 минут назад, Cradicias сказал:

If you're talking about in the final showdown in the Railjack mission, they tweaked it to make it not over in a few seconds.

No, I'm talking about what happens even when Kuva Lich has 3 health bars, that is, about simple missions with him. 

[TerribleDamage]

I don't know about the sisters, but Kuva Lich has become very hard. Previously, using the Stropha, I did one blow and it was enough for him. DE wrote about some kind of simplification of Lich farming, I did not see this, instead I see a Boss who kills a warframe with 1 hit and which 3 30th ranks should kill for a minute, or maybe two. At the same time, before I could immediately kill the Lich, and now I still have to fly into space and complete a whole mission there, so what's the simplification, DE? 

[(PSN)Overtkill21]

This update is a colossal mess. The sisters lich fights are ridiculously convoluted.

Having to pay Zenith tokens for the opportunity for RNG but only if you pass the Nightmare Granum void is really idiotic.

Having to kill your lich to then have to kill it again in a Railjack mission is an insanely ridiculous change - why is this a thing?

Overall this update made me turn the game off.

 

 

[Cradicias]

48 minutes ago, Cradicias said:

Might be a little off topic, but I'm REALLY disliking the way we choose our Lich. Some history to make sure people understand where I'm coming from. When  Liches were originally released it was terrible, because you wouldn't know what weapon you were getting and it was random. They changed it, let you see what you were getting AND they had redundancy protection so that you'd only get a new weapon you hadn't gotten yet. This worked really well.

Flash forward and they added the Valence Transfusion system so we could fuse up our weapons and max out their potential. Fantastic! But, they killed the redundancy system as a necessary part of allowing you to get the weapons again so you can fuse them. So, now with this update, we've added a bunch of new Kuva weapons on top of an already big list. Guess who can't get a Kuva Grattler to save his life but has gotten the Kuva Brakk to pop up like 10 times? THIS GUY!

It'd be really nice if we could get a redundancy blocking system again. Even if it's something as simple as you won't see the same weapon again until you claim a Lich or go through the full rotation of weapons.

 

Starting to think they don't even exist. I've ran into 3 Drakgoons, 3 Stubbs, 5 Brakks, 2 Chukars, 2 Shieldigs, a Bramma and... Pretty sure that's it.

[DrivaMain]

Hound Companions suffers the same problems of all other companions have.. SURVIVABILITY. You cannot, I repeat, cannot make these new companions survivable high level missions if you don't use a Warframe that has at least more than 740 health and 300 armor. How do we fix this problem? Simple, it's time we kill Link-Mods for good and rework the base companion stats to accomodate this change. Link-Mods caused an unhealthy balance between companon stats and it limits player Warframe choice.

 

[Sahysa]

New Kuva Lich Showdown Flow

 

These are occurring on the wrong proximas.  Those proximas have Teir II Railjack drops.  This is disappointing.
I comprehend an accessibility argument but I choose to view difficulty as driving game play rather than an obstacle.

[Tynaiden]

Now we can't help our friends conquer their lichs?

I solo'd mine yesterday before the update to have room to try for a sister today. Friend got on today so I was going to help him finish his lich off so we can attempt to get Sisters together. However, I can't go to the final confrontation to help him because I don't have a lich of my own.

Not a very nice system change when previously friends could help with the final fight no matter the conditions. He is FORCED to join random groups or play solo because of this. I appreciate the thought of having the final confrontation at your discretion through a dedicated map node. Being locked out friend play where it previously was possible is a massive mood killer after having fun the past hour playing and talking together about what Sister / weapon we would like to get while getting him the whispers to finish off his lich.

[JABofNeurospine]

Can you not have a lich and a sister at the same time? Tried to get a lich for a while after starting a sister and couldn't get a spawn. Could just be bad luck though.

[sludgdge]

I have a rank 4 Queenpin, made her spawn with the new Requiem Ultimatum playing with my friend. What proceeded was a barrage of enemies spawning especially tons of Nullifiers, spawning faster than Arbitrations enemies can spawn. My Queenpin kept going invisible and refreshing her shields faster than I could take them down, spawning the hound every 10-20 seconds. It was absolute chaos, wasted all our revives, even my mid-range PC was getting slowed down by everything going on. Apparently my friend thought they despawned, because the health bar disappeared from them and when I marked it was frozen in place. Friend and I have no problem duoing Steel Path, Arbitrations, Sorties, etc. This is very reminiscent of Void Storms pre fixes and is very not fun. I can't tell if this was a bug or intended (apart from the health bar disappearing), so I'm leaving this here in Feedback.

For reference on my PC, some quick specs:

MSI MPG B550I Mini ITX MOBO
Ryzen 7 3800X CPU
32GB 2x16 DDR4-3200 CL16 RAM
Asus GeForce RTX 2060 6GB
Corsair RM 750W 80+ Gold PSU

My PC is no slouch and much like my previous problems with Void Storms, very performance degrading. I don't normally experience this in Warframe.

[Crimswin]

Halfway between a bug and feedback.

tl;dr Wukong's clone (And I assume any other AI you could hand the Envoy or Diplos to) have absolutely no clue how to fire them.

[Nocxia]

So had a blast hunting down my sister today! Only one issue:

 

During the ending showdown, once I have my sister downed and ready to convert or kill, I cannot choose either option as the UI simply does not show up. I tried pressing the hotkey to convert (A) with no luck either. I really want to convert this sister as she's my first VS killing her, so I'm opting to see if this gets tweaked/fixed tomarrow!

[(PSN)ZeonZenes]

Sister Candidates aren't spawning after a successful Granum Void Zenith run way too often and the fact I need to do this JUST to SEE what weapon I could get is way too much compared to Liches.  

We REALLY need to be able to choose the weapon that spawns or atleast have the lich and sister candidates spawn with 3 options over their heads instead of 1 and we choose from the 3.

The DR at the final showdowns is too ridiculous, I get you don't want the fight to be over quickly but they become bullet sponges now.

Why does the new tennet scythe have worse stats across the board than even Hate. I could understand Reaper Prime but the Tennet Scythe just doesn't compare at all to older scythes.

 

[whatiswar01]

Just found out that, the frame u use to go in the golden hand will be the one that determine the element of weapon. I mean it is a very bad idea, as golden hand first release, we already know that u need frame like mesa and smtg to kill those specter. It was hard to use other frame to do the golden hand mission, this will not give diversity but just limited a guide to inexplicitly telling player, just use those frame to do this mission but not any other. It was a totally bad idea imo.

I saw someone give an opinion of when u go into a corpus tileset mission like above some level, the parvos specter will spawn in the map, and u need to kill like few to lure out the first thrall. I think this is the best method i found that can change this grind.

If not u will just be like H sister first thrall liching, need mesa and players cant solo the mission with a short time like kuva. For now every attempt take like 5-8 minutes, it is tooooo long. imagine just 10 attempts take u an hour. And still if u want some element like impact or smtg then u need to use those frame that hard to reach the stage 1 reward. and if u fail the token is consume, then wht u got is ntg but press esc to abort mission.

This luring first thrall for parvos really need to be change.

[FluffyArcheops]

It saddens me to say this in regards to the Tenet Diplos due to how excited I was for them, but in their current state… they feel and perform *awfully*, especially for such weapons of their “standard”. Maybe if the aim-locked targets could be hit in full-auto without dropping their target lock upon firing, the weapon could actually be fired while aimed roughly towards enemies if a lock wasn’t already acquired, the delay after firing at locked enemies was removed and the weapon could lock onto enemies hen they’d be both functional and fun to use. Two shots to a higher-level enemy is almost pointless, and the forced delay mean that enemies can probably take a full crash course on warframe physiology before proceeded to shoot the player while they can’t fire back. They urgently need some help. ☹️

[-Kittens-]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Overtkill21 said:

This update is a colossal mess. The sisters lich fights are ridiculously convoluted.

Having to pay Zenith tokens for the opportunity for RNG but only if you pass the Granum void is really idiotic.

Having to kill your lich to then have to kill it again in a Railjack mission is an insanely ridiculous change - why is this a thing?

Overall this update made me turn the game off.

 

 

I like how they neglected to mention that the hour saved on lich grinding would be made up for in a two hour railjack mission.

 

SIGH.

[mbf-wr]

Using Octavia as progenitor gave a radiation weapon, but magnetic abilities for the sister.  Including the lovely shoot once and kill yourself magnetize/polarize combo - it is no fun on malice and is no fun on a sister.

Not sure if deliberate, but hounds are immune to Hildryn's pillage.

Hopefully not for every hound, but their aoe making you go play fetch with your equipped weapon is irksome.

[Stalker_says_hello]

Kuva grattler sucks in comparison to original grattler just cause you increase fire rate doesn't mean you can cut the damage in half its litterally just the same gun but its a side grade and not a upgrade +2% crit chance and status chance doesn't make up for more than 50% base damage cut even with a 60% elemental it's only 50% original power. That's like if someone complained opticor was slow firing and you made a faster firing weapon of opticor oh wait you did that it's litterally a side grade nobody is going to use kuva grattler over regular grattler as theirs basically no upgrade. 

[Stalker_says_hello]

Kuva nukor nerf is unnecessary as you nerfed condition overload. Litterally I only used it to ever wipe low level mobs it has no use other than any monster under level 45 gets incinerated easily high level content is useless with it. Chain effects was the only good side now I will never lay a finger on the gun again good job. Thanks for the partial forma refund. Now I can throw kuva nukor in the trash. 

[Stalker_says_hello]

Also you need to fix sister not always spawning when Criteria is met from granum void I tested this and like even if you get the level 1 out of 3 mission complete in granum void sister doesn't always spawn and the token is wasted yes I read the directions it spawns some times not all the time. 

[sludgdge]

More feedback on the Sisters of Parvos Gameplay, System & Flow- I know on the patchnotes it said the damage was fixed(?) for the Liches and Queenpins. Was killing a Queenpin suppose to take 10 minutes though? From the start of the Railjack mission, taking down the 2 security nodes and and 2 crewships took 2 minutes, the other 10 was trying to get my Queenpins health down so I can finish them. I used a Stropha with a heavy attack build, modded also for her weaknesses that were Puncture and Electricity. I get not wanting to nuke them is probably a sentiment y'all have as devs of a game company- but was it necessary to make it so I'm hitting 200-400s and they're regenerating shields on top of that? A level 5 Kuva Lich wasn't nukable, and actually felt like a challenge, this was a level 4 Queenpin and I felt like I was hitting a brick wall. I'm not asking for them to be nukable, but between my last feedback with the over abundance of enemies and then to that it feels way too much for so little.

[Stalker_says_hello]

Also going thru this whole process for obtaining a sister was so mind numbing boring imma just not play as it doesn't always spawn when you use a zenith crown coin and kill enough enimies to reach level 1 and then when she does decide to spawn its never the weapon you want. And the whole update where the larvling doesn't spawn the same weapon twice is a lie cause it has legit spawned tetra like 5 times. 

[Stalker_says_hello]

19 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

I like how they neglected to mention that the hour saved on lich grinding would be made up for in a two hour railjack mission.

 

SIGH.

They should of just made the liches a permanent node once you've unlocked all 3 requium signs you need to kill your lich so instead of waiting for it to spawn and checking which order to stab it you can just keep visiting your lich to stab it way easier. Or if it so happens to randomly spawn somewhere else it would die the original way having to stab it and then it flees to space is really dumb I stabbed you and guessed your 3 weaknesses now freaking die maggot! 

[Stalker_says_hello]

Legit DE knows how to make the game not fun and instead wants to make the grind as long as possible so you stay logged in for 48 hours straight if they could. Can't I just pop in for an hour find a lich kill it get the weapon I want hunt it down kill it easy obtain the weapon easy and then take a nap before I have to goto work or school? Having to play a 10min mission to have a small chance of a sister to spawn which may be a glitch only to not get the correct weapon you wanna hunt increased by rng to approximately 2-3 hours till the right sister spawns with the right weapon hopefully without glitching after beating granum void and not getting a sister only to figure out its weakness which takes 18-30minutes and then it flees into space because liches don't die the way they used to cause now they are immune to our stab weapon and now gotta fight in space for 2 hours helping others kill their liches till you can finally get the weapon you wanted only for you to need to repeat the process 6-12 times so you can have a maxed out version of the weapon. And your parents alot you 1 hour to play on the computer because your a kid and they need it for work. 

[Giantconch]

Ok, so where to start with feedback on the new Lich system.

Hounds;

The hounds are nothing really spectacular imho. They serve the purpose of what they are and little more. I have zero control over what type of hound comes from my Corpus Lich, therefore I am at the mercy of RNG hope hope hoping to get the parts needed to build something I may actually be interested in using. If there were any other way at all to get the parts to build something I would like, short of it being locked behind railjack, I would far rather take that route than farm another 8-10 Corpus Liches for dog parts.

I would suggest after each part BP is unlocked, it (the blueprint) becomes available for reproduction through Legs, instead of relying on continual drops, alternatively having the option to disassemble the hounds from the Corpus Liches to recover their parts to be able to craft something a person would rather use (perhaps parts dropped from vanquishing the Lich being guaranteed different from the parts that exist on the current robodoggo). Given the many potential combinations for parts for a modular doggo, hoping to get parts through RNG alone simply is not reliable enough.

Sister Tenet Weapons;

The first, and so far only Tenet weapon I've spawned is the Tetra. Though obviously the best variant of the Tetra to date, it's still a Tetra. It is single target moderate damage with little point in ever using, as there are AoE weapons that do far more damage to multiple enemies at once. I find it doubtful that the Tetra is some random outlier, as I have also obtained a Kuva Hek which suffers the same issue. The squad I was in, we farmed our new Kuva weapon of choice, and our first Tenet weapons, all together. Try as I might to get literally any kills, it was next to impossible with my single target weapons compared to their AoE nuclear bombs.

There is no remedy for this. Single target weapons are dead in the water and anything that does not have some massive AoE is going to collect dust as MR fodder short of the few weapons in the Eidolon hunting meta.

 

*****So, learning the Tetra has a secondary firing mode that is in fact a massive AoE that does fairly good damage. Kind of pathetic imo how badly Kuva Hek stands up now compared to even that.

Murmur reduction;

It is true that yes, getting murmurs seemed to be faster, overall the Lich hunt altogether felt slower, and did in fact take far longer to clear a single Lich than before the update. I can attribute this to the fact that the entire of our squad was opting to stick together and not go after our Liches as soon as we had the third requiem and order. HOWEVER, the fact that it will always be the same planets, the same order for those planets, every single time, is going to make future Liches a boring tedious slog. The order of the murmurs is still totally random, so you may well get to that final planet and take multiple stabs at your Lich before you know the order. This leaves one person with a brutally overpowered Lich, while someone else who just lucked out gets some super easy three-shot-dead Lich. Beyond that, needing to go into railjack -at all- immediately killed any potential enjoyment I could have possibly gained for hunting Liches from this "reduced murmur requirement"

I question why I have to go to some silly railjack mission at all to deal with my Lich. The system of confronting and vanquishing the Lich once you know all three requiems and the order for them worked fine before this. This legitimately comes off as an attempt to pad out and artificially inflate the metrics on how many people "play railjack"

Theres multiple suggestions I can make here.

1. Go back to randomized planets with a caviat; Corpus Liches can only be on Corpus planets, while Kuva Liches can only be on Grineer planets, but DO NOT start every single one on earth, then to mars, then ceres, or venus-phobos-jupiter respectively. Lua can be a wildcard location where Corpus and Grineer could both potentially occupy, and a further "interesting quirk" that could be done with Lua, when occupied by a Kuva Lich, Corpus units on Lua become friendly to Tenno, or when occupied by a Corpus Lich, the Grineer become friendly to the Tenno.

2. Do away with random order for requeims, cap Liches at 3 levels. A person can still get lucky if they guess unknown requiems beforehand for a lower level, but you won't have one person in the squad with a level 5 lich turning your face into chewed food, and the other a level 2 pushover, making it more fair for all the hunters. I understand this one might be pushing my suggestions a bit far, but I do feel it would make the playing field more fair on the players.

3a. Disconnect Liches from Railjack, at least partly. That item for summoning the Lich is misleading as hell when it says, "force the Lich to fight on your terms" meanwhile it just retreats to the Railjack mission. That is not "fighting the lich on my terms" if they just get up and leave.

3b. Alternatively, refresh all nodes on all the planets relevant to the Lich, and give me just a CHANCE of drawing the damn thing out somewhere other than the Railjack node. Give us a choice in combat location for these confrontations.

New Oull requiem mod;

No comment. Didn't get one even with dozens of Liches under my belt. Waiting for the script to run.

Parazon rework;

Nothing to say here. I barely even acknowledge its existence still short of using it to kill thralls and attack the Liches. Enemies either die too fast still for me to bother running up and pressing X, or... ... no, there is no or. That is just the end of this sentence. Time will tell however in long duration missions wether or not parazon kills are greatly improved, I havent exactly had enough time to really put this to the test.

New Kuva Lich Showdown Flow;

Rolling into a Railjack node I despise just to kill some ships then go aboard another ship for the confrontation. There is absolutely nothing enjoyable for me in that first part and I defelct your attention to the multiple suggestions made regarding murmur reduction. Give me back regular starchart confrontations and stop trying to force me into playing Railjack. I have zero interest in it and will dole out the plat to buy the items that drop there instead of playing it. Sorry folks, but that entire mode is just a massive missed swing for me.

That said, the multiple-Liches guaranteed spawning for each person in the squad was nice, it did remove the whole "ugh is this thing FINALLY going to show up" groaning but its just been replaced with "ugh I do not want to be in a gods-damned railjack mission even if it is only for 3-5 minutes"

Again though, my suggestion for improvement is giving a person the ability to get their Lich to spawn and have the final confrontation without going into Railjack, even if it does mean its no longe a guaranteed spawn through a refreshing of the Lich controlled nodes on planets they have been on while murmur farming.

This is just one persons feedback on the system though. Hopefully I conveyed what my thoughts are on the matter appropriately and this can be used to improve the Lich hunting system even further :)

 

Further feedback on the system:

 

Kuliches and Coliches DR during the final confrontation is way too ridiculously high, and their damage output is through the roof. This isnt a challenge thats worth the grind to deal with. This is just back to the old "one shot or get one-shotted" style of play from years ago. Cheese or be cheesed. I get that DE didn't want people to use a Necramech and Arqubex to wipe the floor with their lich in under 1 second, but why not instead simply remove the option to use the mech for the fight? This just seems like an anti-player move to drag out the fight as long as possible for no good reason.

 

Suggestions to improve:

Remove Mechs from being an option during the final confrontation, and reduce the amout of DR the liches have. I legitimately do not want to deal with liches any longer until this is changed.

 

 

Spawning in Coliches and Kuliches;

 

Spawning in the weapons you want is in a bad state currently. Imagine having a void relic with -15- different items in it. How many of those would you need to run to get the 1 part you want?

 

Suggestion here would be to divvy up the Kulich weapons to be half on one set of planets (Saturn, Uranus) and the other half on the next set of planets (Sedna and Kuva Fort) This wouldnt entirely solve the issue and would still involve repeatedly running the same mind numbing captures again and again, but it beats loading into Cassini, racing through, and aborting several dozen times when the weapon you want did not spawn with the larvling.

 

As for the Coliches, we have 3 types of crowns and multiple planets to pick from. Theres no reason at all to have every single one in the same pool and come from the same crown. Perhaps letting us use the different crown types to spawn different weapons would be a good solution here.

 

Still further feedback

 

You guys really need a new way to spawn the weapons a person wants. I'm on run 30 now without getting the weapon I am after. This is ridiculous. You have 3 tiers of Granum Crowns, MAKE USE OF THEM. Divvy up the weapons between each crown so we can actually have a chance at getting what we are after without spamming the same mission, again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again.

 

Corrupted Holokeys:

 

I already hate Railjack just for how DE decided to release it then go on vacation immediately afterwards. No matter what type of carrot is dangled in this game mode, no matter what changes you make, I will always despise this mode for how bad the release was. That said...

 

Corrupted holokeys should have a 100% drop chance after opening a relic.

Holokeys should NOT be an RNG chance at the end of mission only. Thse shoud be given after every single relic opened

As the system currently is, just feels like its again trying to artificially inflate play time on Railjoke to justify the time invested.